Water Under Aft Cockpit in 07 Venture

Hi Casey,

Welcome to the "Eureka, I've Found Water" club.

On our 23' Venture, the bulkhead extends to the hull bottom and considering the volume of water that was under the cabin sole, this seam appears to be relatively tight. On the cockpit side, the injected foam made somewhat of a seal against the cabin bulkhead (it was wet on the bottom, but this could have been leakage from the seam along the base of the bulkhead where it meets the cockpit deck). Inside the cabin, it appears to be tight as seen through the inspection hole. When we found water under the cabin sole in the forward inspection hole, we knew it wasn't draining to the aft inspection holes between the tanks as this area was dry and the bow was elevated for drainage. This lead to the additional inspection plates inside and outside the cabin door (see pictures in photo album). We had hoped, as some have found, that it was clear under the cabin and cockpit decks from bow to stern. But it was not. Additionally, as the water pushed its way up through the joint in the cabin sole (3" from the door) and under the cabinet and dinette, it would seem if there was an opening under the bulkhead, it would have pushed water into the aft cockpit void (We're going to fiberglass this seam).

As to possible sources, the most likely suspect is the chain locker. On our boat, there was a considerable gap which took an effort to fill. Others with water intrusion have found it stopped when the locker was properly sealed.

A second possible suspect is the fresh water lines. We're going to install lockers under the forward berth (See Sea-Daisey Photo album). This will allow a close inspection of the lines when filling and when under pressure as some have found leaks here.

A third possible source is the bow-eye to which you attach the winch. On our boat, this eye has double shank and has pulled slightly away from the prow (about 1/8") at the top. Inside the chain locker, one of the two shanks is accessible and has an eye nut on it to which the anchor rode is attached. But, the second shank is under the bottom of the chain locker and will take some effort to get to it. This can let in a lot of water. See "Safety Concern" in the Hull, Deck and Fittings forum by Amy and Karl on C-Daisy.

A fourth is the seam along the bulkhead in the aft-cockpit. We're going to fiberglass this seam. We have also resealed the tank bolts as suggested by Dr. Bob with the Marine-Tex putty, and additionally have used an epoxy sealant around the sides of the cockpit and across the back of the inside of the stern. We got a gallon from the Defender Catalog for about $63. Tinted white, it looks great. However, we didn't see any visible cracks, but we are going to pressurize these voids and check for leaks with soapy suds as Pandy Girl did.

Finally, using a hose we plan to check all possible outside leaks into the boat from through bolts to through hull fittings to the Wallis exhaust.

If nothing else, we've learned a lot about our boat and quality boat construction and proper fittings and have gotten great input from folks like kmcclish from Southern Cal. This site is well worth donating a few bucks to considering all the information and great ideas from folks with similar boats.

Tim and Dave Kinghorn

P.S. I tried to delete the first message, but I was unable to clear it. I wasn't trying to be cute, but I'm still trying to figure out how to use this site!
 
Casey,
I would try two things. First pouring about a gallon or two of water into your anchor locker and measure how much you get out. Second I would try to rig up a smoke machine somehow using your new deckplates one at a time and see where you see smoke. They rent smoke machines around here for parties. Lets hope the age old adage does not apply where there is smoke there is fire! I know the emmision guys use smoke machines to find leaks in cars. I have a slant cover over my cockpit so any fresh water that shows up now I'm assuming is from the anchor locker or front railings not bedded correctly. I wonder if any could be getting in thru the fastners on the rub rail?
D.D.
 
Tim/Dave,

Your experience reflect my experience for the most part, but I didn't have the center support pole down the midline of the cockpit.

I am AMAZED that the cabin/cockpit bulkhead seem to be watertight, but at the present, that's my impression. I raised and lowered the front of the trailer in an effort to find water aft, but it just wasn't beyond the bulkhead. I haven't cut-in an inspection port beneath the porta-potty (but have one on hand if I opt to do that).

For the moment I plan to just monitor the situation and see if/when/how more cabin water presents itself.

My plans to finish the Beckson plate installation have gotten sidetracked; seems the Admiral's vacuum cleaner needed some rework, so that job jumped ahead of anything boat-oriented. (but I'll have that done in an hour or so, and she'll be able to pursue the vacuuming. [Heh, heh, heh...]) then I'll be back to my boat projects.

I sealed the anchor locker, but honestly, I don't see that as being a likely source of this much water beneath the cabin deck. If so, it tells me that water from bow area will pass to the cabin/cockpit bulkhead and with an inspection plate there I should be able to monitor it in a timely manner.

As mentioned previously I tend to discount the "cabin water" coming from the cabin/cockpit bulkhead joint. First, the boat is generally bow high (either on the trailer or in the water) so the likelihood of it seeping in and running uphill seems remote. That, and the fact that my boat is usually covered by storage canvas or camper enclosure ... rain coming through that joint seems unlikely, and the joint looks good. ...but who knows, eh?

In any case, I'll be in "monitoring mode" and hope to learn more on the coming weeks/months.

...aah, the Joy of boat ownership!

Best,
Casey
 
Casey":3uaznqer said:
As mentioned previously I tend to discount the "cabin water" coming from the cabin/cockpit bulkhead joint. First, the boat is generally bow high (either on the trailer or in the water) so the likelihood of it seeping in and running uphill seems remote. That, and the fact that my boat is usually covered by storage canvas or camper enclosure ... rain coming through that joint seems unlikely, and the joint looks good. ...but who knows, eh?

Best,
Casey
Click to expand...

There well may not be a single explanation for the water we're finding in our boats.

One of the many tests I have done with my boat makes my persist in the belief that water I was finding under the cabin sole originates in the cockpit. This is a little complicated, so stick with me here.

I first noticed water under the Wallas. There is a pathway between the fresh water tank (port side of cabin) and the area under the Wallas (starboard side). It runs just forward of the cabin door at the hull level, thus passing under the cabin sole just in front of the door.

I discovered that the water under the Wallas was sloshing in and out of this pathway. I repeatedly sponged the area under the Wallas dry, only to have more water appear when the boat bounced around a little or was running with bow up. HOWEVER, (here's the surprising part) eventually, the only way I could get more water to appear was to run with the bow up and then suddenly drop the bow DOWN. Now the only way this makes sense to me is if there is some kind of lip in the hull-to-bulkhead connection that effectively dams water under the cockpit sole up to a certain depth (probably a couple of inches, just below the doorway). When the bow is dropped very suddenly, water under the cockpit sole sloshes forward and up and over this "lip" into the cabin area and now once again it will appear under the Wallas when the bow is UP. By preforming this ritual repeatedly, and sponging up all water that appears, I seen to have reached the point where I can no longer produce water under the Wallas whether the bow is up or down.

I keep my boat under cover, and have canvas over the cockpit. I have tested colored water in the fresh water system and in the chain locker. I have spayed water on rubrails and fittings. I don't think water is getting in through the cabin. I run my boat exclusively in salt water. The water getting in appears to be fresh (a relative term, to be sure, for water sitting in the bottom of a boat for months at a time). Some rain water is bound to get into the cockpit, especially, for instance during an Inside Passage cruise, but I think the bulk of it comes from washing the boat down. I used to scrub the cockpit out after ever trip, using a hose or a big bucket of water. For the last several months I've stuck to damp rags. I haven't been on an extended trip in the rain for a while, so this is not necessarily conclusive, but the area under the Wallas is still dry - I was out for 4 beautiful hours this morning, and couldn't produce any water.

So my current best shot at an explanation is that the water gets in through some seam or crack or improperly sealed hole in the cockpit. When enough gets under the cockpit sole, it slops over into the cabin.

I'm still planning on drilling holes and trying to find the leak.
 
I am the proud owner of Hull #1. I have never noticed any water problems under the cabin floor until this year. I keep my CC in a boat house all year long so I it is not getting exposed to rain that often except when we are boating in the rain. I noticed a bit of standing water on the floor a few weeks ago but didn't think much of it. I took my boat in for service about 3 weeks ago. I dont have a trailer so I drove it down to the marine and while it was out of the water I went down last saturday to wax the hull. I got in the cabin to retrieve some cleaning supplies and while I was walking around I could hear water. My heart sunk... Its very noticeable.

couple of thoughts... It must be coming in from the rain water somewhere because I never had this problem before. It was outside while at the marine being serviced and we got a lot of rain in the past few weeks. Maybe it is coming from the winch bolts? The marine doesn't have a lift so it was put on a trailer to be pulled out.

Few questions..... why would this take so long to be a problem? Being that I have hull number 1 that would make the boat 5 years old?

How catastrophic of a situation is this? From the first posts it looked very bad but it appears to not be as drastic as once thought? I do not trust my skills to start cutting holes in the floor. I have recently adopted 2 young boys and I am short on two things... time and money. So I am going to have to have it fixed by the marine....

Is this something that would be covered by insurance?

Thanks in advance

Doug
 
Doug,

I doubt this water situation would be covered by insurance unless it could be traced to a specific event (ie. accident) that resulted in the problem. Since a number of Ventures (both Cape Cruiser and C-Dory versions) appear to have this 'condition, an insurer would say that it's a manufacturing problem, not an insurance problem.

That said, yes, where-the-water-is-coming-from is certainly at issue.

If you read back through this thread you can track several folks experiences trying to solve the problem. Initially, I thought the problem was water coming in via a misdrilled anchor locker drain and/or a leaky bulkhead seam. Inspection showed that not to be the case, the drain was properly drilled and the locker didn't show any sign of water intrusion. Following the anchor locker game, I looked and looked for possible entry points. No joy. The cabin/cockpit bulkhead seam appear tight as well. So I am at a loss at to where the water came from!

In addition to a couple of gallons of water I've sponged-out from beneath the dinette and the Wallas over the past few months ... when I finally got around to cutting-in an inspection port (inside the cabin door) I pumped out thirteen quarts of water! The boat is now on the trailer (in AZ) ... and Completely dried out, as near as I can tell. Next week we will go to Lake Powell for about a week, and I plan to do "bilge checks" to see if/when water shows up. Stay tuned. If there is no rain, and I find bilge water, I just plan to go quietly, Nuts.

I'm beginning to think Venture's employ a secret manufacturing technique. No one advertised it - but maybe Ventures are water-ballasted like the MacGregor 26 sailboat! ...in which case, the moment I launch at Wahweap the boat will turn-over. But the dilemma will be answered!

God...ain't boating Fun?!

Best,
Casey

 
You could fit what I know about boat building into a thimble. I do however have some basic troubleshooting skills. Couple of things that make me wounder about this situation being related to some sort of wear and tear is that it took 5 years for the problem to show up. I am thinking it has to be due to rain for my boat is covered 90 percent of the time and I didn't have this problem until my boat sat all winter with a few washes and then really came up once it was outside for 3 weeks at the marine.

THanks in advance

PS for peace of mind is this a catastrohpic situation? I understand catastrophic differently. For me it would be defined in repairs in the 1000's and or failure of the boat.

Thanks in advance

The Marine did tell me they have seen this in C-Dorys in the past....

Thanks Doug
 
After making several attempts at fixing the suspected leaks in my boat I took it out last week. After a day of spearfishing, getting in and out of the boat wet several times and then showering off in the cockpit I got home and found water under the cockpit floor. Combining this with No Worries experience and I have to believe that the source of the water is a leak on the cockpit floor. I'm going to remove the Port fuel tank and make sure everything is properly sealed under it. Hopefully that will solve the problem. If not then I'm fine having to open my inspection hatches between trips and letting the subfloor dry out.

Bill
 
Hi Doug,

Welcome to the club and the question du jour: Where did the water come from? As with most issues, there appear to be multiple causes.

1. The forward chain locker. leaks in and under the cabin sole
2. Around the lag bolts holding down the fuel tanks. These penetrate the decking into the space under the deck.
3. Next to the cabin bulkhead on the cockpit side.
4. Perimeter pinholes where the deck is fiber glassed to the sides and stern.
5. The seams on the outsides of the cabin bulkhead where it joins the sides of the hull.
6. Thru bolts/screws holding down stanchions and other objects.
7. Around the Wallis exhaust vent.
8. Leaking through plugs placed in holes to facilitate the placement of foam under the aft deck. Such as under the fuel tanks and through the bulkhead into the space under the aft deck, about 2" above the hull and just inside the cabinets on both sides of the cabin door.

In your case, I would most likely suspect it entered from the cockpit. If the lag bolts holding the fuel tanks in place were removed, water would have poured into the space from rain or whatever source. Next I would check the plugs under the tank and the bulkhead seam. Last would be pin-holes in the aft deck where it joins the stern.

I don't see this costing mega bucks. A simple fix would be an inspection port between the two tanks which allows you to evacuate any water that builds up and vent the area. As your boat is number one, it probably doesn't have a stiffener under the middle of the aft deck as does ours. Therefore, a single 6" inspection port between the two tanks would probably work.

As to water in voids and under deck or cabin soles, any boat, overtime, will most likely collect water in a bilge. If that bilge is enclosed as in the Venture and some C-dorys, then an inspection port should be conveniently placed to allow inspections for water intrusion, and if necessary, its removal. I believe the Venture should have inspection ports that access the spaces under the aft deck and cabin sole to allow for monitoring. As Dr. Bob and others have noted, any penetrations into these spaces are likely to lead eventually to water infiltration unless properly sealed. In addition, depending on quality control, there may be pin holes in the decking allowing water to find its way.

Also, periodically venting these spaces will deter mold from growing or odors developing in a damp environment, either due to water accumulation from leaking or condensation.

I agree whole heartily with Ross of Pacific Wanderer (See His photo album for his work) that the Venture is a great boat. The design flaw was not to provide inspection ports. It should be noted that the new Toland designed Marinaut has an inspection port placed in the forward cabin sole even though this space in well sealed between the hull and deck.

As with any boat, there is the possibility of careless mistakes in construction. Ask a boat surveyor to take a look at a new boat, and it's likely he or she will find a number of building miscues. Check out the thread on the owners looking over their new Tom Cat.

My son and I think we have a great boat. Adding inspection ports and sealing possible sources of water intrusion into voids or cored material of the hull or decks is a prudent and wise step in preventing possible water damage that probably needs to be taken by most owners of any boat (Maybe not the Nordic Tug!). We have also upgraded our electrical and fuel supply systems to ensure a safer and more convenient operation.

Personally, I enjoy tinkering with the boat and its systems as part of the joy of owning a boat, and I would not want a casual reader to assume these boats are full of flaws; they are not! Any boat overtime will develop problems that need to be addressed.

The great thing about this site is it allows all of us to share our experiences with discovered problems and our fixes and innovations to improve the the operation and quality of the boat. Of all the available boating sources, not one beats this C-brat site for highly relevant and timely information especially with regard to small boats and pocket cruisers.

Tim and Dave
 
Doug, just be sure that the marina has a very clear idea of what the problem is, and where it came from. I would not say it is a common problem with C Dories--more in the CC and Venture series. Although your time is very precious, I still would take the time to read very carefully this thread, if you can look and see any issues immediately, then point those out to the repair technician. Also print out the summary of the problem and give it to the technician. One of the worse case scenerio is that you send several thousand dollars, and the problem is not fixed. I doubt that this is catastrophic as to real damage to the boat, but it needs to be resolved. I also doubt that insurance would cover it.

Doug, check your private messages.
 
HI everyone I too have a 23 cape cruiser hull number 3 .I keep my boat in the water in brackish water in Naples florida . I found water under the wallas stove (starboard side) and under the port side .

So I traced it to maybe 4 entry points
1- The anchor locker must be looked at make sure the exit point drain hole is at the bottom of locker also I 5200 the whole locker bottom and sides . So no more leaks there .

2- Next the bow rail I found water marks in the cabin so I lifted the bow rail up and re-siliconed the bow rail down so far no more leaks

3- I see also water marks (brownish marks like rust ) around the wallas opening I have not tackled this as of yet

4- The seam between the cockpit and cabin I took out all of the calking and recalked this seam Hopefully this will make it right

I also opened my inspection plate under porta potti there was no real water found just a few drops thats just sweating i guess I also took out the starbord fuel tank no leaks I have owned many boats in the past and most of them have had water in the cabin and usually its leaky windows , rub rail , or some small pinhole that lets water intrude .

Hey guys its summer go out and enjoy your Great boat and wait till oct.to fix these little annoyances .
 
We have a 23 C-Dory Cruiser CDO23005L708. She is kept in the water but pulled last winter and spent a couple of months being stored by Port Boat House. I did ask Mike about the possibility of water under the deck and about his installing an inspection port. He said they hadn't experienced any problems and advised against a port unless I knew I had water (and I would know that by hearing it). I'm just wondering if the problem was solved "post Cape" or if I'm just sublimely ignorant.
 
Hi Doug

It did occur to me that your boat has the water tank under the port dinette seat. On ours, it is in the bow.

Others have found that the water line to the sink from the water tank passes under either the cabin sole or out through the bulkhead, under the aft deck, and then back through the bulkhead to the sink. On our boat and probably on yours, the bulkhead extends to the hull bottom. If the water line passes into the area under the aft deck and then back into the cabin, water would be able to migrate between these two spaces. As a result, you may need a second inspection port forward near the bow. Additionally, one boat has found his water lines leaked under pressure.

I'm inclined toward the idea that all ventures should have an inspection port forward and one aft. They are putting one in the forward bow of the new Marinaut and it is well sealed. If not to inspect for water, it would at least allow you to keep this area ventilated.

Tim and Dave Kinghorn
 
Hi Chimo,

We had considerable water under both the aft deck and under the cabin sole and never heard a thing.

An easy way to check for water under the aft deck would be to remove one of the aft lag bolts holding down the fuel tanks. The one closest to the stern is more likely to just be through fiber glass. Stick a rolled up twist of a paper towel through the hole and see if it gets wet. Put a good sealant on the lag bolt and reinsert it. If you have water, you can then move on to the next step or not. But, alas, you will no longer be an innocent!

Tim and Dave
 
Chimoii,
The water problem applies to CCs and CDs and not just the venture series. If you look back through the archives of this site, you will find mention of later model 22 owners who drilled holes in the raised cockpit floor through the drain plug hole in the transom only to have water come pouring out of the raised floor. Any time you have a raised floor, whether it is filled with foam or not, it will accumulate water unless it is so water tight that it could hold a vacuum or air pressure and do so over many years. Water will leak into anything if it is standing on it as it does in a boat floor. I’m not sure the raised floor with foam in it is an improvement over the older style C-Dories where the hull is the cockpit floor. As for the inside leaks. If you look back through the archives of this site you will see many mentions of leaking anchor lockers, rub rails and plumbing. With the C-Dories where the hull is the floor, you notice the water right away and fix the leak. Or if there is condensation, the water has a chance to evaporate rather than seep to a void under the floor and accumulate over time. With the Cape Cruiser and the Venture series you have an inner shell or molded interior that is separate from the hull so there is a void for water to accumulate in between the hull and floor over time. Then when enough water accumulates to splash around you notice it, and you think you have a major problem. If you have the older model where the hull is the floor you would have cleaned it up and found the leak before a significant amount of water could gather. I’m going to cut in an inspection port into both the interior and cockpit floor to monitor water intrusion, although I’m just not sure where yet. Thanks to Dave and Tim and others for all their informative postings.
Forrest
 
I believe Forest has summarized the thread quite well. If you read this thread from the beginning, just about everything is covered. Particularly see Ross' photos under Pacific Wanderer.

For those adverse to cutting out an inspection port, you could drill a one inch hole through the forward cabin sole and the aft cockpit to inspect for water; you could then remove any discovered water with a small hose and pump. Undercut the hole and seal the edge with epoxy putty. Then plug the hole with a cap such as those that plug the foam injection holes.

Tim and Dave Kinghorn
 
Somewhat along these lines, I had a long conversation with one of our best fiberglass technicians about a Kadey Krogen 42 where they have been trying to dry out the foamed core of the boat for over a year. What seems to happen, is that although you dry the surface under the fiberglass skin, is that there is water deeper in the foam (even "closed cell foam" will adsorb some water)--and then that migrates thru the core. To commpound the problem if salt water has gotten in the core or foam, the water evaporates, leaving the salt, which has a hydroscopic effect, bringing more water in to the foam when the humidity rises.

In this case, they used conventional techniques--with peeling the bottom of the boat, using dehumidifiers inside and outside (sealed from atmoshpere) and heat under the hull. When this didn't work, they made a deal with the owner to buy a $30,000 "Hot Vac" system--where heat and high vacuum is applied to the raw fiberglass. Even continually using that for over 8 months has not dried the boat out--finally they started pulling sections of outer glass off, then drying the foam, and reglassing the bottom (consider that the outer hulls is over 5/8" thick!). Even this is not getting the boat 100% dry. I was aware of this problem with the KK 42, since I was involved with testing of the hull of another one which was also dryed, using a similar technique.

The moral, is that once you get water into a core or foam--be it balsa, closed or open foam, it will be very difficult to get that area completely dry in the future. In the C Dory the core/foam is a small amount--so the consiquence is minimal.
 
I'm FINALLY making some progress on my water leak problem.

Prior to installing two inspection ports, removing the water tank, and visually inspecting for holes/cracks, it donned on me that I hadn't filled the tank (while outside the boat) to see if IT was leaking.

I removed the tank again today and filled it nearly to the brim. While sitting on the shop floor, with the outlets sealed-off, when the water level reached the level of the fill-connection, it began leaking with gusto! I think the problem is Solved! Eureka!

Now the issue will be whether to find and install a new (probably smaller tank), or redo the plumbing connections with new fittings. In any case, I feel much better, and confident this was the source of my water problem(s).

If you haven't begun cutting inspection holes, they might not be necessary (but they are useful in drying the below deck area).

I suspect that during the manufacturing process, a worker used the large fillpipe fitting as a handle ... and in so doing, caused it to unseat itself, and thus the leak has probably been there since the boat was new!
 
Not sure how your tank is made, but most are roto molded polyethylene. the fill pipes are not molded in. The fills are "spun in" with a item like a drill, and the heat welds them. The actual fitting is threaded, and then pipe is put in place. You can repair tanks by heat welding them. (Epxoy with abaision and cloth can also be used to re seal a tank, but the epoxy does not adhere well. Welding kits are fairly in-expensive and easy to use.

Is it possible, that some of the imfamous "Bostic" was used as a sealant and that has broken down?
 
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