Firearms onboard

Some of you guys will appreciate this. Was just in a friends of mines shop this afternoon picking up my kids 1911 slide that he had re worked. He is building a rifle based on the good old M1 action but chambered for 458 WM. Hows that for peace thru superior firepower. 5 rounds of 458 semi auto in a bulletproof action. I was Impressed. At 4K + though I'm gonna have to wait. Jazzes me more than a single shot 50 bmg.
Norm
 
Hi Folks,

Does anybody know how much damage a 12 Gage Flare Gun will do on a potential robber?

I think that it would do the same job as a 12 Gage Shot Gun, only you have to make sure that the burning part of the flare does not damage you or your boat.

This is an interesting question.

As one sailor said to me," if I feel threatened by a person, I would rather shoot first, and work out the problems later."

Fred Heap
 
Fred --
We were curious about the flare pistol as a weapon, also. Couldn't find any real information about it, so took the flare gun out into our desert and fired a few rounds at a board at about 30 feet. (in our residence, in Nelson, NV, nobody would even notice a flare -- we are visited so regularly by extraterrestrials that a sudden light means nothing, and any noise is ignored since the locals have gunfights in the backyards. See http://www.geocities.com/bill_fiero/nelson.htm ). Anyway, the flares bounced off the board leaving very little flaming residue on the board (we had expected a 'splat' of fire on the board). Now, that doesn't mean an impact into soft tissue wouldn't react differently. We did fire a round into a pile of old clothes (left behind by the loser in the last gunfight) and it wasn't pretty -- made a dandy bonfire, that attracted in a few coyotes (and a stray rattlesnake).

So, with the thought of a flare pistol as a protection against bears in Canada (where handguns are illegal) we let go the last round of date-expired flare -- bounced it along the ground toward a coyote so the critter would have plenty of time to see it coming and react. He reacted! He dodged the flare easily by leaping about ten feet straight up, and when last seen he was blazing a trail through the sage three ridges away. So, it works on coyotes -- and they ain't bears! But, it's a start. Oh, and Fred, the rattler dug a hole so fast and far that he re-emerged somewhere east of Shanghai.
 
I just bought a Winchester model 1200 pump 12-gauge short barreled riot gun for protection. It will be the mainstay of any self defence.

I also have a .380 Automatic calibered LLama semi-automatic handgun as a second, more convenient weapon that's a little easier to keep loaded and more quickly available.

For a third choice, I have a black WWI Nazi 25 mm flare gun that is made of very hard and strong aluminum alloy. I seriously think it will withstand at least low-base 12 gauge shotgun loads when equipped with a chamber reducing insert.

I do not believe it will suffer the problems Bob Austin relates of hinge lock failure that is found in the plastic flare guns included in signal kits.
It would seem to be at least 10-20 times as strong as any molded plastic gun, barring high tech composite construction. I'd say the strength of construction was pretty comparable with the Winchester (!)

The only problem is I'm a little afraid to be the first to fire a untested system. Also, it will probably have quite some recoil!

It would be a great one shot weapon, essentially a 12 gauge shotgun with a 6 inch barrel. Maybe I should get someone to make me a hardened steel or titanium barrel insert instead of the standard West Marine aluminum variety.

On board, I'd have just another flare gun with a reducer for 12 gauge flares until the shotgun shells were loaded into it.

Any thoughts?

Joe.
 
Joe...sounds to me like you would end up with a shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches long...big trouble even if it did hold together while firing!
 
Geeze...a semi auto 458...hmmm...interesting!

Joe,
The .45 Colt/.410 shotshell barrels for the T/C Contender are illegal in CA, so I'm sure they wouldn't like your home brewed one, either. No sense of humor at all, eh?

Ya know, guys, this has been a fun discussion. There's always 10 different views from 10 different people. Always a lively debate on stuff like this, and I'm glad everyone is being nice about it. Kinda like hangin' out at the local gunshop on a rainy Saturday afternoon just shooting the bull...

Rick
 
Much as I agree with the 1911/.45 analysis posted here, I'm a Glock fan. Our primary defense weapon is a Model 23 (.40 S&W).

Like a C-Dory, it's simple, rugged, and reliable. With the exception of one batch of bad loads (insufficient powder, action wouldn't cycle), I've fired thousands of rounds through mine, and never had a misfeed, misfire or mechanical breakdown. It spits out everything perfectly, from cheap low powered FMJ reloads, to stiffly loaded HP defense loads.

I'm also a big fan of the lack of an external safety on a Glock. The best safety on any weapon is the one between your ears, and while safe handling of any firearm is firmly ingrained in my head, I don't shoot as often as I used to. In a time of need, I'm not confident dealing with an external safety would be second nature to me, as it would be to those of you who shoot regularly. I just want to pick the thing up and be ready to shoot, keeping in mind the generic safety precautions applicable to any make or model of firearm.

And IMO, therein lies one of the deciding factors in the ages-old 1911 vs. Glock debate. If you rarely shoot or carry, but want something reliable and simple to use, there's a strong case to be made for the Glock. Many will suggest revolvers for folks in this situation, but I seem to be in the minority here...don't like them for defense weapons. I want my first shot to be quick and count, and I consider cocking the hammer or relying on a double-action trigger pull for the first shot to be a drawback.

If you are a more accomplished/regular shooter, the choice becomes more involved, the case is stronger for a 1911, and typically boils down to one of personal preference.

Setting aside handgun preference, once you've made up your mind what to get, here's a handgun safe manufacturer that is top notch. The construction is the best I've seen, both from a quality and functional standpoint. The use of a mechanical Simplex lock requires no batteries, and can easily be opened in the dark with a little practice. I've got one installed in my home, and will probably get one for the boat some day. If you install them cross-bolted in a corner, they are very tough to forcibly remove with a prybar.
 
No doubt about it, Bill, Gaston Glock changed the world of pistols forever. The Glock is a superb pistol...very, very safe and ultra reliable. If they could just put a good trigger on the darn thing. I don't like the trigger safety on it...I guess I would get used to it after a while, though. At any rate, you'd be hard pressed to find a more simple auto for the occasional shooter...you're bang on with that one.

Rick
 
Just a final question from this corner--how many of you all keep a round in the chamber in your automatic handguns?

I don't from a safety standpoint--and that is my arguement in favor of a double action revolver. The trigger pull is less an "inconvience" than pulling the slide on an auto. But we all have our opinions, and I am just an old guy. Been good chatting!

Regards!
 
Double-action autos like the Beretta, Glock, Springfield XD, H&K USP, Sig, etc are designed to be carried with a loaded chamber. They are safe and all you have to do is pull the trigger to fire. Some autos are double-action only, meaning that the trigger pull is long every time...moving the striker or hammer, depending on the pistol, to fire each round. Some autos have the longer double-action trigger pull on the first round, then the short, crisp single action trigger pull for each succesive round fired.

Single action autos like the 1911 have a short, crisp trigger pull every time. Since it is a single action, the hammer must be back when the trigger is pulled in order to fire the pistol. The 1911 is very safe to carry in Condition One, also known as "cocked and locked" which means a round in the chamber, the hammer cocked, and safety on. The more recent series of Colts, etc, and my Kimber, use an improved firing pin safety system, and of course the grip safety must still be depressed in order to fire.

As far as safety, the manufacturer want it to be safe for its intended use. As an example, Glock dropped a loaded pistol from a great height onto concrete and the gun bounced and didn't go off. They then walked over and fired the gun...now THAT is safe and reliable.

I carry Condition One. There's no sense carrying a gun for self defense if you have to jack the slide before bringing the weapon to bear. You may not have that time.

Edit: I should have noted that double-action pistols aren't made to be carried cocked and locked.
 
Interesting discussion. Have been considering the CC course, since I have a Ruger .45 auto as my main, as well as a Beretta .32 auto as my backup, sort of like my 100 Merc. main, and my 6 Merc kicker. Am about to take the CC course here in New Mexico.

Just started reading the book "In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad F. Ayoob. Haven't finished it yet, but so far, I would highly recommend it.

Much of this discussion here on the C-Brat site has been about the guns themselves. But this book brings home the discussion to some very serious decision making, regarding the legal aspects, and the moral aspects of using deadly force. It really helps you to make that big decision as to whether you are willing to kill somebody in self defense.

It presents the topic in very real terms, without selling you on the idea of getting a gun, or not getting one. It assumes that you already have one, then walks you through how to, or whether you really want to, use it to kill someone. The author is a high-ranking cop, who talks very intelligently from experience.

It has certainly opened up my thinking, and it is very highly rated by folks who have read it. You can find it at www.bn.com.

Ken
 
The safe that I installed in our vessel is found here www.gunvault.com/
It has a springloaded door and can be easily opened with your eyes closed (ie: in the dark).
I also pack the Glock .40 S&W model 23 and fortunately reside in a state that allows CWP's.
 
which is why I carry the shotgun to shoot the flare...
Click to expand...

Oh, that was close. I thought you were fixing to tell the old "gorilla in the tree/shoot the dog joke". We can't be telling that one on here.
 
DaveS":376h51tv said:
The safe that I installed in our vessel is found here www.gunvault.com/
It has a springloaded door and can be easily opened with your eyes closed (ie: in the dark).
Click to expand...

That's a good one too, Dave. However, it requries batteries to operate the keypad, unlike the mechanical simplex lock on mine. Perhaps not a huge deal, assuming you're good about keeping fresh batteries in there.

On the plus side, your electronic keypad is more secure than the manual lock on mine. A simplex lock has a relatively limited number of combinations, and will allow unlimited attempts to unlock it. Yours not only has far more possible combinations, but it will disable temporarily after a number of invalid attempts to unlock it.
 
Question:

For any of you who leave handguns, long guns, or Howitzers on board for any length of time, what special precaustions do you take to minimize exposure to the elements, or do you simply always remove the weapon when not on the boat?

Joe.
 
I have a slew of guns, my favorite for serious work is the IR 261
I love you, man! What a great one! :D

Massad Ayoob is one heck of a guy, I agree. I've been meaning to get that book. He's penned a couple others, too.
 
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