This raises an interesting issue, maybe worthy of another thread: What is the worst sea conditions you've ever had your C-Dory out in? Mine is relatively tame, maybe 4' confused seas with occasionally larger rollers out in the middle of Rosario Strait. I had everyone in life jackets, the handheld VHF around my wrist, and prayed for the motor to keep going, which it did. But I know Least Heat Moon encountered what he described as a "shattering" , hours-long ordeal on one of the Great Lakes, and there's the couple who ran a CD22 up to Alaska including some time on the "outside". From the warmth and safety of my office desk, I'd love to hear about some of your experiences... Mike.
Open Ocean Suitability
- Thread starter pcguy2u
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Captains Cat
New member
Mine was on my old 22, Captain's Choice. 8+ft breaking short period seas from the North and me going North about 30 miles north of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel. The boat slammed hard no matter what speed I did. My navigator (a Navy Rear Admiral Ret) was changing positions to my helm seat when he lost his balance when the table collapsed from pushing on the corner (since fixed ) and he went down in the aisle with me on top. Broke his right ankle, compound fracture and we had to head into the York River. Called a Marina and they had EMS waiting on the pier. He had surgery that night, two plates, six screws.
The forecast, and we did check it before leaving Portsmouth was for 3-4 ft seas, moderating to 1-2 as the day went on. That never happened.
Never felt unsure of the boat, just darn uncomfortable, but a lot more comfortable than my Navigator was. His wife still doesn't like me... :disgust :roll:
Charlie
The forecast, and we did check it before leaving Portsmouth was for 3-4 ft seas, moderating to 1-2 as the day went on. That never happened.
Never felt unsure of the boat, just darn uncomfortable, but a lot more comfortable than my Navigator was. His wife still doesn't like me... :disgust :roll:
Charlie
westward":3g2epbn8 said:
Several years ago Jon of "C-Lou" posted a harrowing story of his being surprised by a horrific storm while out on his 22' C- Dory. Unfortuately, I am unable to locate it in the search engine. But, his story is truly the most horrendous that I've seen posted by this group of C-Dory aficionados! I NEVER want to be out in my 22' in a storm like the one that he described. :disgust
dogon dory
New member
Sorry, Folks - Post Deleted By Author
Nic,
I would ask those who told you that a C Dory was "unseaworthy" if they had ever owner or run a C Dory? I suspect that they had not. The semi dory (which a C Dory is a derivative of) is a derivative of a dory. Remember that the dories are probably one of the most sea worthy boats. They were used as fishing boats from the Banks schooners and several have been rowed accross the North Atlantic--in the route encountering significant storms.
The flat bottom is what makes these boats more stable, and more seaworthy. The Deep V, such as a Contender or Regulator --26 degree Vee--will roll much more than a C Dory--just because of the deep V. This is one of the negitives of the extreme deep V is rolling when drifting in heavy seas. The deep V's have to be moving fast to get stability.
True, there should be some reservation of the non self bailing boat--and generally I prefer to have a self bailing boat--but with a good camper canvas over the cockpit of a C Dory, there is little reason to get any spray, let alone any water in the boats. Also I agree, that with relitatively little weight and a flat, broad aft hull, that the boats rise so fast, that there are few, if any, instances of water comming over the transom splash well.
We have been out in some rough water in the C Dory series of boats, including a 22 we owned and I consider them quite seaworthy. I have also spent some time sailing in your waters and would not hesitate to run a C Dory 22 out of Bodega Bay, but as in any 22 foot boat, would watch the weather.
I would ask those who told you that a C Dory was "unseaworthy" if they had ever owner or run a C Dory? I suspect that they had not. The semi dory (which a C Dory is a derivative of) is a derivative of a dory. Remember that the dories are probably one of the most sea worthy boats. They were used as fishing boats from the Banks schooners and several have been rowed accross the North Atlantic--in the route encountering significant storms.
The flat bottom is what makes these boats more stable, and more seaworthy. The Deep V, such as a Contender or Regulator --26 degree Vee--will roll much more than a C Dory--just because of the deep V. This is one of the negitives of the extreme deep V is rolling when drifting in heavy seas. The deep V's have to be moving fast to get stability.
True, there should be some reservation of the non self bailing boat--and generally I prefer to have a self bailing boat--but with a good camper canvas over the cockpit of a C Dory, there is little reason to get any spray, let alone any water in the boats. Also I agree, that with relitatively little weight and a flat, broad aft hull, that the boats rise so fast, that there are few, if any, instances of water comming over the transom splash well.
We have been out in some rough water in the C Dory series of boats, including a 22 we owned and I consider them quite seaworthy. I have also spent some time sailing in your waters and would not hesitate to run a C Dory 22 out of Bodega Bay, but as in any 22 foot boat, would watch the weather.
I myself regularly bottom fish in a protected pass in the San Juan's. Always around slack tide and usually very clam water. Problem is that the ferry runs through regularly. I have never taken more than a splash into the cockpit, but have had my motors/splashwell doused plenty of times, sometimes while landing a fish. If these wakes were to sneak up on a person sitting on the gunnel (or worse using the facilities), you'd better have a life jacket on! I read somewhere a while back that many, perhaps most, drownings happen fairly close to the dock. Point taken. Mike.
thataway":nmeydf43 said:
Hi Bob, I hope I said suitable and not unseaworthy. All the quotes came from owners of heavy boats. One a longtime captain and owner of a 28' Bertram that he just spent $60K+- on a repower with two new GMC marine deisel engines - a serious kind of guy and obviously never owned a CD, but he says he's been out on one and he didn't like it. He asked me to do a simple test when the opportunity presents itself. Simply put, he suggested I make a comparison between a CD22 and any other similar sized boat by stepping on the gunnel at the dock. He requested that I judge for myself whether I would want to be in that kind of a boat in rough weather. Need to do that.
In all fairnes though, the CD has all the ammenities I am looking for including trailering, fuel consumption and shelter from the elements. Finding that in another mfg's boat means giving up on trailering and fuel consumption efficiency and going for a larger beam. Like everything else in life, it's a tradeoff.
You guys are great, many thanks for all the intuition,
Nick
A
Anonymous
Guest
I concur with the thought:
"If conditions are such you've got any doubts about whether you should leave the dock it is quite simple, don't. You don't need an equation or a spreadsheet to figure it out."
More worthy of consideration, I believe, is the question:
What are the criteria which define the point where it's time to turn back or make a run for it?
PAP
Sequim
"If conditions are such you've got any doubts about whether you should leave the dock it is quite simple, don't. You don't need an equation or a spreadsheet to figure it out."
More worthy of consideration, I believe, is the question:
What are the criteria which define the point where it's time to turn back or make a run for it?
PAP
Sequim
pcguy2u":2807sruu said:... He asked me to do a simple test when the opportunity presents itself. Simply put, he suggested I make a comparison between a CD22 and any other similar sized boat by stepping on the gunnel at the dock. He requested that I judge for myself whether I would want to be in that kind of a boat in rough weather. Need to do that.
In all fairnes though, the CD has all the ammenities I am looking for including trailering, fuel consumption and shelter from the elements. Finding that in another mfg's boat means giving up on trailering and fuel consumption efficiency and going for a larger beam. Like everything else in life, it's a tradeoff.
You guys are great, many thanks for all the intuition,
Nick
Hi Nick,
Due to the hull shape, I think you'll find that "stepping on the gunnel test" will show that the C-Dory with its flatter hull will move less than an equivalent size deep-v hull. Now, if you were to compare it against his 28' (much heavier) boat, you definitely have an apples and oranges comparison. After that test, get in the cockpit and move from one side to the other - see which feels more solid. That is another advantage of the C-Dory hull (along with better economy, more stable in really snotty conditions at slow speed, more comfortable at anchor).
Best wishes,
Jim B.
dogon dory
New member
Sorry, Folks - Post Deleted By Author
dogon dory
New member
Sorry, Folks - Post Deleted By Author
Dogon dory, if you feel that I am "consiquently impaired", the polite way to handle that would be with a private post or a phone call. The discussion is about the C Dory, not deep V's or sailboats etc.
There is a direct lineage from the dory hull form. The C Dory origionally had a flat bottom, with rocker, the "V" to the bow, was added to to improve the boats performance to weather in 1987. Both the origional C Dory, and the current C Dories have a relitatively narrow waterline beam--not as narrow as a traditional dory (I owned a Banks type of dory and rowed 6 miles a day for a number of years, so I have considerable experience in a banks dory). The banks dory bottoms were flat (with rocker both because of the stacking, construction and seaworthynes. There is far more initial stability in a C Dory, because of the wider water line, but there is also good ultimate stablility. The true banks dory became more stable as it was loaded, but it also decreased freeboard--the c Dory also gains stability, but does not markedly decrease the freeboard, beause of the board stern and wider waterline. The broad stern was added in semi dories because of the power addition thru the years. A true banks dory had a "Tombstone" transom, not quite double ended.
The lineage of the semi Dory is well documented in David Gerr's book, the Nature of boats--and he feels that there is a gradual evolution--that there are similarities. (He does not mention "C Dory". The word Semi Dory, and Dory Skiff was used before C Dories were evolved, and boats were built with both planks and plywood long before the C Dory line. As far as I can find, the first semi dories were built in the 30's (but I have lost my "Dory Book" by Gardner. So that the "Dory" is not just marketing hype--it was adopted before the C Dories were first produced in the late 70's. The banks skiffs and semidories were lap straked for both strength and this also gave some shape to the hull (and some roundness to the hull)--again not exclusinve to the C Dory line. The modern reverse chine is a C Dory innovation (to my knowlege)
I have also run deep V's(20 to 24 degree dead rise) for over 45 years and the V "trips" on the waves, where as the flat bottom slides--and I feel much better in the C Dory in beam and down wind, than in the deep V--the deep V will run to weather better, up to a point. At a point the deep V has to come off a plane, and they are not able to run from 8 to 18 knots range easily, and can become difficult to handle. The C Dory has the advantage of the lower planing speed, and thus is less likely to overcome a wave.
I don't agree with about the comfort of deep V's--they have their features, but they also have their disadvantages (and I still own a deep V center console for fishing). The reality of a modern Deep V outboard boat is that the center of gravity is moderately high--because they need at least twice the power that a C Dory requires--consiquently the weight high in the power heads. (yes, the cabin of the C Dory adds windage and weight aloft). You mention ultimate stabliity--have you capsized a C Dory? I am not aware of that happening, except the one which was rolled in the surf--and any boat would have rolled under those conditions.
We have never had water over the splash well of our 22 CD, but I have to assume that you had considerably more weight in the stern than we had. (I didn't say that water didn't get in the splash well--I noted that it didn't go over the splash well). I believe that the early C Dories were run with 75 hp OMC products and 75 hp Hondas--the 75 Hondas weight was about 350 lbs--I believe the OMC was closer to 300 lbs, not 200 lbs. I ran a deep V for many years in rough water, and did take water over the transom only if I "goofed" by not handling the boat properly. I suspect that if I was getting water over the top of the splash well regularly in a C Dory, I would make some very rapid corrections--re-distribution of weight, different heading etc.
You are absolutely correct that the skipper's skills are extremely important in the safety of a boat. Never have I denied that. However, if you look, I have included both a kicker (in my own preference) and a sea anchor as being essential elements in a small single engine boat. A deep V, self bailing boat was lost off Pensacola a year or so back because they had anchored by the stern, the seas had come up and two people's lives were lost. This was definately skipper error--and so common sense is extemely important in any boat.
Please don't make assumptions about my biasis or compentecy.
Regards,
There is a direct lineage from the dory hull form. The C Dory origionally had a flat bottom, with rocker, the "V" to the bow, was added to to improve the boats performance to weather in 1987. Both the origional C Dory, and the current C Dories have a relitatively narrow waterline beam--not as narrow as a traditional dory (I owned a Banks type of dory and rowed 6 miles a day for a number of years, so I have considerable experience in a banks dory). The banks dory bottoms were flat (with rocker both because of the stacking, construction and seaworthynes. There is far more initial stability in a C Dory, because of the wider water line, but there is also good ultimate stablility. The true banks dory became more stable as it was loaded, but it also decreased freeboard--the c Dory also gains stability, but does not markedly decrease the freeboard, beause of the board stern and wider waterline. The broad stern was added in semi dories because of the power addition thru the years. A true banks dory had a "Tombstone" transom, not quite double ended.
The lineage of the semi Dory is well documented in David Gerr's book, the Nature of boats--and he feels that there is a gradual evolution--that there are similarities. (He does not mention "C Dory". The word Semi Dory, and Dory Skiff was used before C Dories were evolved, and boats were built with both planks and plywood long before the C Dory line. As far as I can find, the first semi dories were built in the 30's (but I have lost my "Dory Book" by Gardner. So that the "Dory" is not just marketing hype--it was adopted before the C Dories were first produced in the late 70's. The banks skiffs and semidories were lap straked for both strength and this also gave some shape to the hull (and some roundness to the hull)--again not exclusinve to the C Dory line. The modern reverse chine is a C Dory innovation (to my knowlege)
I have also run deep V's(20 to 24 degree dead rise) for over 45 years and the V "trips" on the waves, where as the flat bottom slides--and I feel much better in the C Dory in beam and down wind, than in the deep V--the deep V will run to weather better, up to a point. At a point the deep V has to come off a plane, and they are not able to run from 8 to 18 knots range easily, and can become difficult to handle. The C Dory has the advantage of the lower planing speed, and thus is less likely to overcome a wave.
I don't agree with about the comfort of deep V's--they have their features, but they also have their disadvantages (and I still own a deep V center console for fishing). The reality of a modern Deep V outboard boat is that the center of gravity is moderately high--because they need at least twice the power that a C Dory requires--consiquently the weight high in the power heads. (yes, the cabin of the C Dory adds windage and weight aloft). You mention ultimate stabliity--have you capsized a C Dory? I am not aware of that happening, except the one which was rolled in the surf--and any boat would have rolled under those conditions.
We have never had water over the splash well of our 22 CD, but I have to assume that you had considerably more weight in the stern than we had. (I didn't say that water didn't get in the splash well--I noted that it didn't go over the splash well). I believe that the early C Dories were run with 75 hp OMC products and 75 hp Hondas--the 75 Hondas weight was about 350 lbs--I believe the OMC was closer to 300 lbs, not 200 lbs. I ran a deep V for many years in rough water, and did take water over the transom only if I "goofed" by not handling the boat properly. I suspect that if I was getting water over the top of the splash well regularly in a C Dory, I would make some very rapid corrections--re-distribution of weight, different heading etc.
You are absolutely correct that the skipper's skills are extremely important in the safety of a boat. Never have I denied that. However, if you look, I have included both a kicker (in my own preference) and a sea anchor as being essential elements in a small single engine boat. A deep V, self bailing boat was lost off Pensacola a year or so back because they had anchored by the stern, the seas had come up and two people's lives were lost. This was definately skipper error--and so common sense is extemely important in any boat.
Please don't make assumptions about my biasis or compentecy.
Regards,
dogon dory
New member
Sorry, Folks - Post Deleted By Author
JamesTXSD":1jzcyef5 said:
Well, I ran the "gunnel test" yesterday use a CD 22 Cruiser, a Wellcraft and a Seaswirl Striper - all seemed of similar vintage. Quite a noticable difference, although I didn't walk the cockpit because the owners were not present.
So I did a little checking on the situation and here is what may be going on. The Wellcraft and Seaswirl both weighed more than the CD by more than 1000 pounds - the weight difference seems to be part of the equation that makes the CD more fuel efficient and appears to contribute to the confirmation of the "gunnel test" that my Bertram Skipper friend suggested.
I also feel confident that the fuel efficiency of the CD is due in part to the lower weight and to the flat bottom and resulting short draft. As has been pointed out on this forum, the CD will come up on plane at very low speeds. However, my Bertram Skipper Friend suggests that the CD is always on plane, even at the dock.
The apparrent need for a sea anchor is a good thing to know about these boats - I will definitely have one aboard, no matter which boat I end up with.
Thanks again,
Nick
Brats,
I find this thread very interesting. I can not add any technical knowledge to the discussion , but I can add a little experience. I had the Hunky Dory for seven years. I took it 50 mile out in the Pacific off the coast of Mexico. Out of Prince of Wales in Alaska. Into the Pacific where I encountered the biggest swells with waves on top . 50 to 70 miles out in the Gulf of Mexico. Crossed the Gulf stream to the Bahamas 4 times all with a 22 ft. C-Dory. During that seven years I discovered a go or no go theory. If when you get heading out in rough seas if it would be uncomfortable to fish, turn around and go home. I found the boat handles it all very well, but I don't. Usually my fishing buddy will chime in and say " lets not and say we did" Why go out and beat yourself up? I don't believe I have ever taken water over the stern. I do carry a drogue, but have never used it. The twin 40 Hondas always could keep me on the downside of the wave or climb the next one. The proof how well the C-dory handles in rough seas can be found in my album. No one was aboard when the Hunky Dory came ashore. It still had a small amount of weight hanging off the anchor rode, which probably helped. There were bigger waves coming in than what was captured in the picture. If there were picture of the end of the story you would see the boat come in and park on the sand beach , high and dry with absolutely no damage what so ever. I backed the pickup right to it and winched it up on the trailer.
The C-Dory reminds me of a light bulb, Maybe not the best shape for all types of cruising, Maybe even a little fragile. That light bulb could drift around the world in all kinds of storms and not break. I remember one of the C-Dogs that was in accident while towing a C-Dory. The boat ended up on top of his truck with very little damage. If I remember correctly he was rear ended. The truck got the worst end of it. Some of you old C-Dogs could probably shed some light on this story.
I have yet to find out if the Ranger will handle the seas as well as the C-Dory. I had a lot of confidence in that 22 ft'er. I miss her already. You could park her for the night anywhere. When the 8 inches of water went out from under her you could sleep like a baby. I can't do that with a Ranger.
Captd
I find this thread very interesting. I can not add any technical knowledge to the discussion , but I can add a little experience. I had the Hunky Dory for seven years. I took it 50 mile out in the Pacific off the coast of Mexico. Out of Prince of Wales in Alaska. Into the Pacific where I encountered the biggest swells with waves on top . 50 to 70 miles out in the Gulf of Mexico. Crossed the Gulf stream to the Bahamas 4 times all with a 22 ft. C-Dory. During that seven years I discovered a go or no go theory. If when you get heading out in rough seas if it would be uncomfortable to fish, turn around and go home. I found the boat handles it all very well, but I don't. Usually my fishing buddy will chime in and say " lets not and say we did" Why go out and beat yourself up? I don't believe I have ever taken water over the stern. I do carry a drogue, but have never used it. The twin 40 Hondas always could keep me on the downside of the wave or climb the next one. The proof how well the C-dory handles in rough seas can be found in my album. No one was aboard when the Hunky Dory came ashore. It still had a small amount of weight hanging off the anchor rode, which probably helped. There were bigger waves coming in than what was captured in the picture. If there were picture of the end of the story you would see the boat come in and park on the sand beach , high and dry with absolutely no damage what so ever. I backed the pickup right to it and winched it up on the trailer.
The C-Dory reminds me of a light bulb, Maybe not the best shape for all types of cruising, Maybe even a little fragile. That light bulb could drift around the world in all kinds of storms and not break. I remember one of the C-Dogs that was in accident while towing a C-Dory. The boat ended up on top of his truck with very little damage. If I remember correctly he was rear ended. The truck got the worst end of it. Some of you old C-Dogs could probably shed some light on this story.
I have yet to find out if the Ranger will handle the seas as well as the C-Dory. I had a lot of confidence in that 22 ft'er. I miss her already. You could park her for the night anywhere. When the 8 inches of water went out from under her you could sleep like a baby. I can't do that with a Ranger.
Captd
Maybe it depends upon how a CD22 is loaded, but my TomCat 255 drifts sideways to the wind and waves unless there is a horrendous gust (55k is the worst we've had hit us). In that case, the bow does go downwind during the gust. Otherwise, we've had no problems drifing stern to the wind and waves.
John
John
marvin4239
New member
Captd that first picture of the breaking wave hitting you broadside is testimony to the sea worthyness of the 22's. I think a deep v boat in the same situation would have possibly tripped on itself and capsized in that situation. The fact they have the flat bottom and float like a cork is the first thing I noticed when getting use to them in any kind of seas.
As far as comparing their ride quality to some other types of designs that are supposedly built for open water I had a pretty neat observation the other day. Most of my cruising is inshore but I do occasionly got outside to fish. A few days ago I was fishing just outside the inlet close to a sand bar that had breaking waves over it. The seas were maybe 2 to 3 feet. I anchored up not far from another boat which was about 22' and deep v design center console. There were four guys in this boat and they were really taking a beating. I sat in the console realitively comfortable and fished for whiting til I ran out of bait watching these guys in the deep v getting thrown around and wet. I pulled anchor and started heading in at about 12 MPH. I noticed the guys in the deep v were coming up behind me about 150 yards behind and taking a pretty good pounding. I trimmed the bow down a little and kicked the speed up to about 15 MPH. Next thing I new this deep v purposly built for the heavy seas had slowed down and fallen in behind me in my wake enjoying the flatter sea. I was perfectly comfortable and dry. Now maybe they could have run 20 or 25 mph but they certainly weren't comfortable or dry.
As far as comparing their ride quality to some other types of designs that are supposedly built for open water I had a pretty neat observation the other day. Most of my cruising is inshore but I do occasionly got outside to fish. A few days ago I was fishing just outside the inlet close to a sand bar that had breaking waves over it. The seas were maybe 2 to 3 feet. I anchored up not far from another boat which was about 22' and deep v design center console. There were four guys in this boat and they were really taking a beating. I sat in the console realitively comfortable and fished for whiting til I ran out of bait watching these guys in the deep v getting thrown around and wet. I pulled anchor and started heading in at about 12 MPH. I noticed the guys in the deep v were coming up behind me about 150 yards behind and taking a pretty good pounding. I trimmed the bow down a little and kicked the speed up to about 15 MPH. Next thing I new this deep v purposly built for the heavy seas had slowed down and fallen in behind me in my wake enjoying the flatter sea. I was perfectly comfortable and dry. Now maybe they could have run 20 or 25 mph but they certainly weren't comfortable or dry.
marvin4239
New member
A good read on the evolution from the traditional dory to what we have today can be found on the Simmons Sea Skiff website. This was and east coast built boat and I have seen similiar designs in the PNW. The fact they used a motorwell and high angled transom made them very sea worthy. TN Simmons played and important role in the development of what we have today.
:beerNot For Hire
New member
Comments and questions:
I love it when Dogon Dan is in the slow season and posts here. He makes me laugh and does have insightful posts, and he is welcome to fish with me anyday. I am a fan, well at least of his dogs.
Dr. Bob has given great advice here for years and has personally (by email) helped me with some boat problems. I am grateful for his participation and look forward to meeting on the water some day. Hey Bob I have my side scan sonar now, how about you?
I have fished lake Michigan for years and have been member of USCGAux, etc. When fishing I am sometimes asked when is it too rough to fish. Last year I had an arranged trip where people bid for a fishing trip at a charity auction. These three guests could only go on a certain day. It was very rough. I was at an inland marina and we headed down the river/channel a couple of miles to the big lake. We passed a steady line of boats that had poked their noses out and turned back. Maybe five out of over 200 boats decided to fish that day. I explained to my guests that I would decide if we could safely fish or not, if that was a go, they could decide if they still wanted to go. When we got to the lake in beginning light I decided it was safe to fish. I don't have a magic formula for how I know this or decide this but one of the key things I think about is "what happens to the boat if there is no power." This comes back to the CDs tendency to ride downwind, downwave, etc. Sometimes the answer is "we'll sink," so you must not go out. In other words if you must maintain speed and attitude towards the waves in order to be safe it is too rough to fish. If not fishing and only boating my mantra is close to Dog On Dan's, unlike the CG I don't HAVE to go out.
Fishing waves is also influenced by the crew. On this day my guests knew fishing but not boating, the autopilot would have to steer (downhill only, no way you could troll uphill) and I would try and rig lines etc. I told my guests we could fish but that it would be very uncomfortable. They all wanted to fish.
We had a three mile run to where we would start trolling. All three guests were vomiting in short order. Two out the back one out the window. They still wanted to fish. I was kneeling and crawling in the cockpit to tie baits and use downriggers, etc., couldn't stand up. Got one line down and an instant hit. Twenty minutes to land a 25 lb king in those conditions. The fisherman stood, braced against the starboard cabin bulkhead, I held on with two hands, coaching and finally netting. Everything was an adventure with waves taller than boat, motor well with lots of water, no water into cockpit. Only one guest still sick. Lines back down and again a hit before I can get a second line down, again a long fight and a second king almost as big as the first. (These were the two biggest kings I took in 06). I insist that the fishing guests check on the third sick guest, the sick guest says one more time. This time it took five minutes of trolling to hook and land the third fish. It took more than an hour to get back to harbor at about 5 mph, quartering into waves. The third guest turned back to living color as soon as we were in the harbor.
Now I have been in much rougher water but that is the roughest I have fished in or at least the roughest I have fished in at the outset, sometimes it does blow up a bit but, you know, they are biting and what can you do.
Now my question raised by a comment Dr. Bob made - Does camper canvas make the CD, CD 22 in particular, more seaworthy? My 22 has three bilge pumps and a transom board (not debating such boards here that has been done before), but not camper canvas. Bob seems to imply that the canvas will keep the boat from shipping water and that seems like it must be correct to me. On the other hand what effect does it have on windage? Does the boat still turn and face downwind? I regularly rinse my roof off with green water when running but I don't have anyone in the cockpit to get wet, or at least no one I care about so the canvas hasn't been a priority.
So I throw this question into the mix, what effect does a camper canvas have on seaworthiness? What about an angled cockpit cover (with a clear window)?
Regards.
Mark
I love it when Dogon Dan is in the slow season and posts here. He makes me laugh and does have insightful posts, and he is welcome to fish with me anyday. I am a fan, well at least of his dogs.
Dr. Bob has given great advice here for years and has personally (by email) helped me with some boat problems. I am grateful for his participation and look forward to meeting on the water some day. Hey Bob I have my side scan sonar now, how about you?
I have fished lake Michigan for years and have been member of USCGAux, etc. When fishing I am sometimes asked when is it too rough to fish. Last year I had an arranged trip where people bid for a fishing trip at a charity auction. These three guests could only go on a certain day. It was very rough. I was at an inland marina and we headed down the river/channel a couple of miles to the big lake. We passed a steady line of boats that had poked their noses out and turned back. Maybe five out of over 200 boats decided to fish that day. I explained to my guests that I would decide if we could safely fish or not, if that was a go, they could decide if they still wanted to go. When we got to the lake in beginning light I decided it was safe to fish. I don't have a magic formula for how I know this or decide this but one of the key things I think about is "what happens to the boat if there is no power." This comes back to the CDs tendency to ride downwind, downwave, etc. Sometimes the answer is "we'll sink," so you must not go out. In other words if you must maintain speed and attitude towards the waves in order to be safe it is too rough to fish. If not fishing and only boating my mantra is close to Dog On Dan's, unlike the CG I don't HAVE to go out.
Fishing waves is also influenced by the crew. On this day my guests knew fishing but not boating, the autopilot would have to steer (downhill only, no way you could troll uphill) and I would try and rig lines etc. I told my guests we could fish but that it would be very uncomfortable. They all wanted to fish.
We had a three mile run to where we would start trolling. All three guests were vomiting in short order. Two out the back one out the window. They still wanted to fish. I was kneeling and crawling in the cockpit to tie baits and use downriggers, etc., couldn't stand up. Got one line down and an instant hit. Twenty minutes to land a 25 lb king in those conditions. The fisherman stood, braced against the starboard cabin bulkhead, I held on with two hands, coaching and finally netting. Everything was an adventure with waves taller than boat, motor well with lots of water, no water into cockpit. Only one guest still sick. Lines back down and again a hit before I can get a second line down, again a long fight and a second king almost as big as the first. (These were the two biggest kings I took in 06). I insist that the fishing guests check on the third sick guest, the sick guest says one more time. This time it took five minutes of trolling to hook and land the third fish. It took more than an hour to get back to harbor at about 5 mph, quartering into waves. The third guest turned back to living color as soon as we were in the harbor.
Now I have been in much rougher water but that is the roughest I have fished in or at least the roughest I have fished in at the outset, sometimes it does blow up a bit but, you know, they are biting and what can you do.
Now my question raised by a comment Dr. Bob made - Does camper canvas make the CD, CD 22 in particular, more seaworthy? My 22 has three bilge pumps and a transom board (not debating such boards here that has been done before), but not camper canvas. Bob seems to imply that the canvas will keep the boat from shipping water and that seems like it must be correct to me. On the other hand what effect does it have on windage? Does the boat still turn and face downwind? I regularly rinse my roof off with green water when running but I don't have anyone in the cockpit to get wet, or at least no one I care about so the canvas hasn't been a priority.
So I throw this question into the mix, what effect does a camper canvas have on seaworthiness? What about an angled cockpit cover (with a clear window)?
Regards.
Mark