iPad 3G for e-Navigation
- Thread starter mtwguides
- Start date
Yes, that is true, but if the GPS is like the i phone, I would much rather have a blue tooth connection to a different chip set, other than what is in the i phone.
I am dissapointed in the accuracy of the latest i phone GPS--it is not reliable enough for marine navigation.
I did get a chance to play with an I pad for an hour, and I was not impressed enough to buy one. The keyboard is no more easy to use than the i phone (ie you cannot reliably touch type)--I would want the bluetooth keyboard, or the docking keyboard--and with that bulk you are getting near the size of one of the note book type of macs. The other problem is data transfer or acquisition--you have to use a computer to download charts etc to the i pad (unless you find them on the internet--which is comberson)
I am going to re-evaluate the i pad when 3G is available. But right now, I am going with Autonet and my Mac book or a PC running Windows 7; plus the i phone.
I am dissapointed in the accuracy of the latest i phone GPS--it is not reliable enough for marine navigation.
I did get a chance to play with an I pad for an hour, and I was not impressed enough to buy one. The keyboard is no more easy to use than the i phone (ie you cannot reliably touch type)--I would want the bluetooth keyboard, or the docking keyboard--and with that bulk you are getting near the size of one of the note book type of macs. The other problem is data transfer or acquisition--you have to use a computer to download charts etc to the i pad (unless you find them on the internet--which is comberson)
I am going to re-evaluate the i pad when 3G is available. But right now, I am going with Autonet and my Mac book or a PC running Windows 7; plus the i phone.
Agree, agree, and agree.
A keyboard/stand has been announced and previewed but the BT-extensibility has not yet been fully disclosed. Until we see the answer to that, Im not jumping either.
In the end, I think people are going to have to like IPad apps (exactly as they are) to go in this direction. If you want to run your industrial-strength Mac or PC apps on it, it's the wrong box.
As an example, I'm trying to imagine putting a PC virtualization program on there, then Coastal Explorer, then my 10,000 e-charts, hooking up my USGlobalSat BU-353 GPS ...
We, like you, run MacBook Pros, with Parallels Desktop, to enable ANY Mac or PC app that makes sense for our survey work, guide writing, business, or personal needs.
An iPad won't satisfy that need. Again, it will be iPad horses for iPad courses ...
Best, Mark
A keyboard/stand has been announced and previewed but the BT-extensibility has not yet been fully disclosed. Until we see the answer to that, Im not jumping either.
In the end, I think people are going to have to like IPad apps (exactly as they are) to go in this direction. If you want to run your industrial-strength Mac or PC apps on it, it's the wrong box.
As an example, I'm trying to imagine putting a PC virtualization program on there, then Coastal Explorer, then my 10,000 e-charts, hooking up my USGlobalSat BU-353 GPS ...
We, like you, run MacBook Pros, with Parallels Desktop, to enable ANY Mac or PC app that makes sense for our survey work, guide writing, business, or personal needs.
An iPad won't satisfy that need. Again, it will be iPad horses for iPad courses ...
Best, Mark
Read what Jeff has posted - over here http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?p=2589074#post2589074 about the new ActiveCaptain app for the iphone & ipad !
The Active Captain app is certainly exciting. I know that Jeff and Karen have been working on this for quite some time. This is a link to an article that they did on the i phone 3 G/3GS last year:
http://www.activecaptain.com/articles/m ... iPhone.php
He affirms the poor GPS capability of the I phone. I suspect that the i phone is using some hybrid system, since I did a bunch of tracking today in the car--and when I was getting good 3G signals, the accuracy was good--within 50 feet. But when I did not get 3G signals, then it detiorrated. Part may also be due to the ability to down load maps.--again a bit of a problem having much of the information stored on the internet.
It does not sound as if either the i pad or OS 4 for the i phone has resloved the GPS issues, from those limited reveiws I have read.
http://www.activecaptain.com/articles/m ... iPhone.php
He affirms the poor GPS capability of the I phone. I suspect that the i phone is using some hybrid system, since I did a bunch of tracking today in the car--and when I was getting good 3G signals, the accuracy was good--within 50 feet. But when I did not get 3G signals, then it detiorrated. Part may also be due to the ability to down load maps.--again a bit of a problem having much of the information stored on the internet.
It does not sound as if either the i pad or OS 4 for the i phone has resloved the GPS issues, from those limited reveiws I have read.
But if I read Jeff correctly on the other forum, it will all be on the iPad, or iPhone here is a quote -
"- It stores ALL of the data offline. So if you're looking for boat ramps in the boonies, you don't need any internet connection at all. Every marker, detail, and review is included. Press the Update button when you have an internet connection, and it synchronizes all of the new data onto your device since the last update from our server."
Maybe he's saying everything except charts (maps)? Anyway, I'm gonna have it on my phone, but I doubt if I will ever seriously use it to navigate by. But finding "services" I think it will beat Garmin, cause it will have a lot of "local knowledge" items that Garmin knows zip about.
"- It stores ALL of the data offline. So if you're looking for boat ramps in the boonies, you don't need any internet connection at all. Every marker, detail, and review is included. Press the Update button when you have an internet connection, and it synchronizes all of the new data onto your device since the last update from our server."
Maybe he's saying everything except charts (maps)? Anyway, I'm gonna have it on my phone, but I doubt if I will ever seriously use it to navigate by. But finding "services" I think it will beat Garmin, cause it will have a lot of "local knowledge" items that Garmin knows zip about.
With the built in maping program (based on Google maps), you have to be near a good connection to down load the maps. The i phone does not store the entire Google database of maps on board--in fact it doesn't seem to store any. I believe that the same is true for Active captain. I don't have any of the maps/charts, POI for active captain stored in my computer--but when I connect to the interent, up they pop and you can bring up what information you want.
I am strongly in favor of supporting Jeff's Active Captain. He has asked for local knowledge from thousands of boaters and built an interactive data base from that. His platform is becomming universal, and he has worked on both several computer OS, as well as multiple phone OS to give that compatability.
Yes, there are great applications for restraunts etc on the i phone--and i use them all of the time. His database has been expanding, but is focused just on what is important for boaters.
I see the biggest shame as that Apple has not allowed Blue tooth linking of extemely good and accurate GPS systems to make both the i phone and i pad the very best that it can be. With mediocre GPS accuracy, it down grades the entire experience of navigating with one of these Apple Products.
I am strongly in favor of supporting Jeff's Active Captain. He has asked for local knowledge from thousands of boaters and built an interactive data base from that. His platform is becomming universal, and he has worked on both several computer OS, as well as multiple phone OS to give that compatability.
Yes, there are great applications for restraunts etc on the i phone--and i use them all of the time. His database has been expanding, but is focused just on what is important for boaters.
I see the biggest shame as that Apple has not allowed Blue tooth linking of extemely good and accurate GPS systems to make both the i phone and i pad the very best that it can be. With mediocre GPS accuracy, it down grades the entire experience of navigating with one of these Apple Products.
ActiveCaptain
New member
Geez, just ask! I've been a member of this forum for what, 3 years now? :lol:toyman":5roni9y0 said:
I've been using the iPhone/iPad app on my boat for the last few days. We've been moving up the ICW through Florida. We're in Fernandina now - about to head over to Cumberland Island for a few days.
First, ALL of the data resides locally on the iPhone or iPad. All of the NOAA chart data, all of the ActiveCaptain data, all of the tide calculation...everything. NDBC buoy reports are integrated in the app and they are obviously accessed over the internet because the only thing that makes sense it to get the latest data.
This is all so incredibly nice - and I'm obviously biased but it doesn't take much imagination to realize how nice it is. No internet connection is needed at all to get the NOAA map data. Since the ActiveCaptain data is local, every marker instantly comes into view as you zoom and pan around. And it rotates with your course over ground so you are always seeing what's up ahead/left/right in its proper orientation. It was very nice to have the info for each bridge right there before we got to the bridge. Yesterday we traveled between St. Augustine and Fernandina and there are 5 hazard markers along the ICW. We watched each one pop up and followed the information about which side of the channel to stay on, etc.
The data is compressed and takes less space than you'd imagine. The charts for Maine around the Keys to Pensacola along with all of the AC data takes about 300 MB. In all honesty, that's nothing today. Even on my 16 GB iPhone with lots of videos, pictures, every charting app and charts, I've only used 6 GB so far.
When you have an internet connection, the app will allow you to update the AC data. This downloads the changed marker details and reviews that have been incorporated on the web site since the last time you updated it. I find this takes about 20 seconds per day between updates over cellular. So if you update daily while underway, it takes about 20 seconds. If you update weekly at home, figure on a couple of minutes (probably less if you're on a quick WiFi connection).
For the iPad, it doesn't pixel magnify/replicate. It uses the full resolution. I don't have one myself - waiting for the 3G version - but I did see it live on real hardware and it was pretty nice. It's the size of a large chartplotter - the pixel density is very high on the iPad and the resulting image looks very nice.
Note that we're doing the same offline AC data storage with Coastal Explorer right now too - available as a free beta from Rose Point. There's a whole API for the data and synchronization that we've made available to developers. Three products are announced with support - MaxSea Time Zero, Coastal Explorer, and Nobeltec v11. There are a few others coming as well.
Even though the AC data is being included now in commercial applications, the web site and everything about ActiveCaptain is completely free. It costs nothing to use the web site now or in the future. There will also never be an extra charge to use the ActiveCaptain data within the commercial apps - it's just a standard part of the feature set.
There's lots more interesting things coming on the horizon - native Mac app, other platforms, and possibly even inclusion of AC's data on charting "chips" from the standard chart providers. And don't get me started about the route sharing capability that I'm designing for the web site right now...
Morning Star
New member
TomTom has a kit for the iPhone that, according to their information, enhances the GPS performance. Hopefully, they will offer a kit for the iPad. It appears to connect via the Apple dock connector-not Bluetooth-unfortunately. Does anyone have experience with this kit that can speak to the GPS performance?
http://www.tomtom.com/products/product.php?ID=1019&Category=2&Lid=4
http://www.tomtom.com/products/product.php?ID=1019&Category=2&Lid=4
hank schneider
New member
Just put mine in the paper to sell. No GPS makes it pretty useless also can't edit word dociments
H
H
ActiveCaptain
New member
You're right. I meant to address this above but never got to it. There is a solution today - I'll get to it below.thataway":3qq21od8 said:
The integrated GPS on the iPhone is probably the worst performing GPS I have ever seen. My little 1994 Garmin 45 works much better. Every phone that I have with a GPS chip works better. I don't know why it's so bad but it is. The iPhone GPS does not require a 3G connection but the time-to-first-fix is faster if it has it. It triangulates the towers to get an approximate position and then uses that to look for the satellites it knows are in view. I believe that if you have no cellular signal at all, you can still have a GPS position - it just takes longer.
When moving over a period of time, the GPS accuracy isn't terrible - although it's still the worst I've seen. It seems to have a hard time locking in on the speed and course unless the iPhone has a wide open view of the sky. The accuracy falls to unusable when you're below deck or even just covered - the times you'd love to have an anchor alarm.
But all is not lost. If you jailbreak your iPhone, you can buy/install a nifty app called "roqyBT". More on it is here:
http://www.roqy-bluetooth.net/wp/
This connects to an external GPS over Bluetooth and injects the data into Apple's iPhone OS location services API's. The end result is that any app that uses the internal GPS will now be using the external Bluetooth one. I've tested it on a handful of apps and it works well. They just released an update - the previous version was a little bit unstable at times.
Jailbreaking the iPhone isn't a difficult thing to do. Supposedly 8% of iPhone users have done it. You have to understand some security issues (easy to plug up) and you have to be careful about upgrading. We've been too swamped to write an article about "Jailbreaking onboard" but it'll come out eventually.
The main reason that we did the jailbreak thing on our iPhone was to allow tethering to our laptops. That works pretty well - we've used it a lot. With PDANet (there are others too) the iPhone connects to the internet and then a laptop connects to the iPhone over WiFi to get online. Only one laptop at a time can be connected but it's works pretty well. If we didn't have it, we'd go over our 5 GB limit on Verizon every month (we've missed and gone over once too - quite an expensive experience).
I know that this GPS issue is more confusing than it needs to be. The real fix to all of it will come when Apple adds serial port profile support to their Bluetooth stack. It's hard to imagine why they haven't done this.
jkidd
Active member
Here is a little explanation on the iphone gps off the web.
What is GPS? How does the iPhone 3G GPS system work? Can it be used for real-time navigation in a car?
Garmin -- one of the leaders in GPS satellite
navigation systems -- defines GPS, or Global Positioning System, as:
A satellite-based navigation system made up of a network of 24 satellites placed into orbit by the U.S. Department of Defense. GPS was originally intended for military applications, but in the 1980s, the government made the system available for civilian use. . .
GPS satellites circle the earth twice a day in a very precise orbit and transmit signal information to earth. GPS receivers take this information and use triangulation to calculate the user's exact location. Essentially, the GPS receiver compares the time a signal was transmitted by a satellite with the time it was received. The time difference tells the GPS receiver how far away the satellite is. Now, with distance measurements from a few more satellites, the receiver can determine the user's position and display it on the unit's electronic map.
Garmin's complete definition and details are quite interesting and should be read in their entirety.
The iPhone 3G and iPhone 3GS use A-GPS -- or "Assisted GPS" -- which in basic terms accesses an intermediary server
when it is not possible to connect directly via satellite -- indoors, for example -- and this server provides the nearest satellite with additional information to make it possible to more accurately determine a users position.
Apple explains that the iPhone 3G and iPhone 3GS also use "wi-fi hotspots
and cellular towers to get the most accurate location fast" when GPS is not the most convenient method of location detection. The iPhone 3GS adds an integrated digital compass to also provide the direction one is facing, which is quite useful when combined with mapping software.
When combined with a service -- such as AT&T Navigator which "transforms your iPhone 3G and 3GS into a voice-guided GPS navigation system for traveling across the country and just across town" for an additional US$9.99 a month -- the iPhone 3G and iPhone 3GS are capable of providing real-time navigation. The original iPhone is not.
What is GPS? How does the iPhone 3G GPS system work? Can it be used for real-time navigation in a car?
Garmin -- one of the leaders in GPS satellite
navigation systems -- defines GPS, or Global Positioning System, as:
A satellite-based navigation system made up of a network of 24 satellites placed into orbit by the U.S. Department of Defense. GPS was originally intended for military applications, but in the 1980s, the government made the system available for civilian use. . .
GPS satellites circle the earth twice a day in a very precise orbit and transmit signal information to earth. GPS receivers take this information and use triangulation to calculate the user's exact location. Essentially, the GPS receiver compares the time a signal was transmitted by a satellite with the time it was received. The time difference tells the GPS receiver how far away the satellite is. Now, with distance measurements from a few more satellites, the receiver can determine the user's position and display it on the unit's electronic map.
Garmin's complete definition and details are quite interesting and should be read in their entirety.
The iPhone 3G and iPhone 3GS use A-GPS -- or "Assisted GPS" -- which in basic terms accesses an intermediary server
when it is not possible to connect directly via satellite -- indoors, for example -- and this server provides the nearest satellite with additional information to make it possible to more accurately determine a users position.
Apple explains that the iPhone 3G and iPhone 3GS also use "wi-fi hotspots
and cellular towers to get the most accurate location fast" when GPS is not the most convenient method of location detection. The iPhone 3GS adds an integrated digital compass to also provide the direction one is facing, which is quite useful when combined with mapping software.
When combined with a service -- such as AT&T Navigator which "transforms your iPhone 3G and 3GS into a voice-guided GPS navigation system for traveling across the country and just across town" for an additional US$9.99 a month -- the iPhone 3G and iPhone 3GS are capable of providing real-time navigation. The original iPhone is not.
ActiveCaptain
New member
We have both Verizon and AT&T. We like to use the iPhone tethering so that we don't go over our 5 GB limit on the Verizon account for the MiFi we use.rogerbum":3t7a50y0 said:
ActiveCaptain
New member
We love it. The combination of a Verizon MiFi and a tetherable iPhone has given us high speed internet access every day between Maine and Key West. We use the MiFi more often because it's so simple to set up and both my wife and I can connect at the same time.jkidd":bgdcwqhg said:
We've been using the MiFi for 6 months now. The speeds are faster than our previous wireless broadband card, especially when that was run through the Cradlepoint router. The speeds are even faster if you tether the MiFi via USB to the laptop... but, then it does not act as a wifi. We frequently run with two computers online at the same time. The only downside I've run into with the MiFi is when using it on its internal battery: if you are not active for a couple minutes, the connection goes dormant and you can't wake it up without turning the card off and then on again. Less prone to do so when the MiFi is plugged into power and doesn't happen at all when tethered.
Even though there is no external small antenna like the previous Expresscard 34 had, the signal has been as good or better than that card. I've been very pleased with the MiFi.
Best wishes,
Jim B.
Even though there is no external small antenna like the previous Expresscard 34 had, the signal has been as good or better than that card. I've been very pleased with the MiFi.
Best wishes,
Jim B.
ActiveCaptain
New member
We amp our MiFi with a cradle when there's low signal strength or when it seems slow. I spoke at the Greenport, NY TrawlerFest inside a large theater last Summer. The MiFi worked but the connection was slow. I tripled the internet throughput speed by amping the MiFi.JamesTXSD":tpyx8h43 said:
My talk was on Cruising the Maine Coast. All of the questions at the end were about the MiFi amp and internet connectivity - no one was able to get their aircards working fast from their boats in the small town and couldn't figure out how I did it.
Hi Jeffrey,
I've seen the Wilson phone cradle used with the Wifi; what type of amplifier are you using? External antenna on that amp? Cost? Thanks in advance for any suggestions you might offer.
At this point, we've been very pleased with the signal and speed we've been getting from our Mifi, but would appreciate knowing about options.
Best wishes,
Jim B.
I've seen the Wilson phone cradle used with the Wifi; what type of amplifier are you using? External antenna on that amp? Cost? Thanks in advance for any suggestions you might offer.
At this point, we've been very pleased with the signal and speed we've been getting from our Mifi, but would appreciate knowing about options.
Best wishes,
Jim B.