Firearms onboard

A lot of good opinions based on good data and personal experience. I too was in the Marine Corps during the transition from the 1911 to the M9. I do agree that the Beretta is more accurate and easier for someone who doesn't practice a lot to hit with. I do believe that a hit with a sub-par round beats a miss with anything. That is a debate that will never be totally settled. Both sides have real merits. I carry an M9 every time I leave home station. I qualify expert with it and am comfortable with it. It does beat the crap out of the old snub nose 38s we used to carry as aircrew. However when it came time to vote with my wallet I didn't go with the Beretta or even the 9mm. I have 2 1911s, a stainless springfield full sized and a colt commander. I actually considered a 9mm for the wife until she outshot me the first time she picked up my 1911. That put a quick end to that issue. I do know that the army is at present seeking a new sidearm. Word is that it will be a 45 but not a 1911 design. Supposedly it will be a double action like the Beretta. The last couple of yrs in real world use have again raised the argument of the inadaquacy of the 9mm. A lot of the special ops folks have already made the switch. The Marine Corps for example has purchased Kimber 45s for their special ops guys. As for accuracy it really is an apples and oranges arguement. The old 1911s were built during WWII on a rush production schedule. Current production stuff is every bit as accurate as the M9. Also the much maligned firing pin stop in the series 80 colts and the new Kimbers cured the drop/discharge issue. I will have to go with the opinion of a few police officers I used to go to the range with. For the house, a 12 or 20 guage short barreled pump is pretty hard to beat. Just my 2 cents worth on the question.
Norm
 
Norm, you’re right about the 9mm not having the knock down power of the 45 but that’s why they do chamber the berretta to a .40 swn. I think a lot of the power issues in combat stem from shooting at cars and thru walls. Something I can see happing a lot in Iraq right now. I really grew to hate the colt when I was teaching. Most of the guns we had were stock armory guns with LOTS of rounds down them. They were prone to going auto on you. Pull the trigger once and she just kept on going until the mag was empty. Scares the hell out of you. I had one sgt. just stop as round were going thru the top of the range cover over his head, it happens really fast if you are not ready for it and no one is.

The only bad thing I can see about surfer boy getting killed is that he had his girl friend with him and caused her death too. I am really pissed that they let him come to schools down here and teach to young kids his stupid Ideas. I just wonder how many more deaths he will cause in the future.
 
Amen to the full auto! Never had it happen with the 1911 but did have it happen once on an old autloader 12 ga on the trap range. That'll get your attention real quick. Also agree on the condition of the 45s at the end of their service. One thing the military does when it sees the end coming for a piece of gear is stop buying parts and doing first rate maintenance. It's much easier to convince daddy (congress) to buy you a new bicycle if your old one is busted. A harder arguement to make if it is still in fine working order and you just want something better. I still wish though that I had the Union switch and signal 45 that I fired in boot camp. It would be worth a pretty penny now.
Norm
 
Starcrafttom,

I was in the service before the transition. I carried a 45. I wound up buying my own, because as you said, the standard issue was not terrific. Mine was an Ithica that was accurized. At the standard range of 50 yards, I would hit the black top half of the bull virtually every time. At a guess 199 out of 200 rounds. It is a weapon I am extremely comfortable with. It is what I have next to my bed. I do like Berettas and have three of them, the largest being a .380. I also have another .380. I have just never gotten a 9mm. I am sure they are fine guns, they just don't meet the requirements I have for a pistol. As a civilian, the 45 is not a pistol I would ever carry daily. It is a reliable piece of equipment that I would and do stake the life of my family on. Are they perfect? Of course not. In a crisis situation, however it is something I can use well, clear quickly if need be, and use as a strong defensive tool.

Dave
 
Dave Thats just my point, it's a weapon you are comfortable with so you shoot it a lot and that makes you a better shot, the pratice I mean. I have thousands of rounds with the berreta and thats why I like it so much. To tell the truth i cannot convince my own wife to touch a automatice pistol of any type. Years ago she was beening shown how to shoot a auto and cut her self with the slide the first shot. Now I cant get her to even take about a auto and I will not get a wheel gun(here we go again) for her as a house gun. right now we have two 20ga's one auto(mine, she wont shoot it) and her single. The single is a full choke that I bought her for a turkey trip that has not happen yet. She and my son both us it for trap and james is really good with it. I am planing to start duck hunting this next season so I will be getting 12ga'sthis summer. I always say shoot what makes you comfortable.
 
I tried to stay out of this one but I just can’t any longer. As you can tell from my user name, I’m what one might call a bit of a “firearms enthusiast” (since I don’t really like the term gun nut, but that’s what I am). If we aren’t boating/fishing, we’re at the range. It’s pretty much my passion in life, and always has been. It’s a whole lot of fun. There are over 30 guns in our safe ranging in size up to the .416 Rigby and .500 Nitro Express for long guns and to .475 Linebaugh on the handgun side. I also handload for 17 different cartridges. I'm certainly not the expert boater that many of you fine folks are, but I know a thing or two about this subject.

Since this has somehow turned into a personal protection thread, once again the decades old “9mm vs. 45ACP” and “Wonder 9 vs. 1911” debate has reared its ugly head yet again…here’s my two cents.

I disagree with you completely on the Beretta 92 / 1911, Tom. Yes, the 92 is an easy to shoot, accurate, reliable pistol, no doubt about it. When you look at the general shooting public who may not fire that many rounds in a year, it does make some sense to use a lightweight like the 9mm Luger because they are very easy to shoot. Of course, there’s a reason for that double column magazine…the 9mm Luger has a pathetic track record as a fight stopper, both in military and police use. It sucked in 1908 when adopted by the German army and it hasn’t improved much in the almost 100 years since. That’s one reason police departments across the nation are abandoning in droves it in favor of the 40 S&W. I agree with you on that one, the .40 is a fair compromise between the two in recoil and power…one reason it is gaining popularity. Even DHS is switching to the .40 in the Sig.

The reports coming back from the sandbox, however, are all the same. It takes several hits from the 9mm to make the bad guy fall down, all while he continues to shoot back at the good guy. You don’t have that problem with the 45 ACP. The Marines asked for the return of the 45 and it has once again proven its worth. I used to work with a couple dozen WW2 vets before I joined the service, and to a man they all had nothing but admiration for the 1911 and the 45ACP. When you have a few conversations with combat veterans who actually used it, and they all say the same thing, it gets your attention. Dirty or clean, tight or loose, the 1911 just plain worked…and it still does. The one word they always used was “reliable” both in operation and effect on the bad guy.

Yes, I carry a 1911. If I can’t hit what I’m aiming at with 9 rounds, I don’t have any business carrying in the first place. Hopefully, I’ll never need it anyway. I think the likelihood of having to defend yourself against an angry dog is a much more likely scenario than against a man. You hit the nail on the head when it comes to practice…you can’t practice too much.

Not trying to start an argument, just pointing out some facts.

I think for the average Joe who doesn't shoot much, but wants to protect himself, and wants a handgun, it's mighty hard to beat a double action revolver. Simple, reliable and easy to use. No extra controls or lever or magazines to fool with. Just pull the trigger. Still takes practice, but less to think about under stress.

As far as bear guns up here…shoot the biggest gun you can shoot well, that’s my motto. You’ll most likely only get off one shot anyway, if you are very lucky…might as well make it as big as you can handle.
 
In the current "Passagemaker" magazine page 253 is an ad for "Pirates Plague", a single shot .38 insert of aluminum for a 12 mm flare gun. More about this on page 47--the distributer claims to be an ex police officer. Claims this piece to be legal anywhere in the world. Also claims this to be safe. I dispute all of the claims about safety and legality. One of the testers from "Passagemaker" magazine found that after "a couple of rounds" the plastic hinge on the breach of the flare gun had cracked! I can assure you that police which find this and .38 bullets will treat you as if this is a gun--and in Mexico and some other countries which have as equally unpleasant jails, you will be come very familiar with their justice system. I suspect that our brothers in Canada will also take a very dim view of this "weapon".

As I pointed out before the similar Machete stopper (12 gauage in 25 mm flare gun)--had the same defect and was pulled from the market. This weapon is not effective and not safe in my opinion.

I have talked to a number of GI's who spent time in Iraq who also used or wanted the old 1911 .45. I had used them in the military and didn't have a lot of respect for the accuracy--until I fired one which had been modified which made it a much more accurate piece. However, I agree that a revolver is a much simpler hand gun. The .44 mag has more "stopping" power than the .45. However you must have become very used to the characteristics of the gun.
 
Actually, the GIs in Iraq that I know prefered weapon of choice is the Air Force. .... but the PC Congress just has an issue of taking it out grid square at a time.

I do not.
 
I'm gonna try this one more time. Does anyone know if it's technically legal for me to carry ANY gun onboard, while traversing Florida, without a Florida carry permit?
 
I'm just practicing embeding photos in posts and wonder who can identify the following photo which could be subtitled

"Berry picking in Alaska among the brown bears"

Paige_2005_Sawmill_Bay_AK.thumb.jpg
 
Minnow":3qb1xbrh said:
I'm gonna try this one more time. Does anyone know if it's technically legal for me to carry ANY gun onboard, while traversing Florida, without a Florida carry permit?
Click to expand...

I found the following here.

As near as I can tell, the only revisions to the 2000 Florida gun statutes deal with loosening the rules regarding shooting someone in self defense. Just enter Florida gun statute into Google and you will get lots of places to look. This is, however, the internet so you would do well to verify by calling or writing an enforcement agency to ensure your understanding is correct. (Hey Pat - did I word that right?)

The 2000 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI
CRIMES Chapter 790
Weapons And Firearms View Entire Chapter

790.015 Nonresidents who are United States citizens and hold a concealed weapons license in another state; reciprocity.--

(1) Notwithstanding s. 790.01, a resident of the United States who is a nonresident of Florida may carry a concealed weapon or concealed firearm while in this state if the nonresident:

(a) Is 21 years of age or older; and

(b) Has in his or her immediate possession a valid license to carry a concealed weapon or concealed firearm issued to the nonresident in his or her state of residence.

(2) A nonresident is subject to the same laws and restrictions with respect to carrying a concealed weapon or concealed firearm as a resident of Florida who is so licensed.

(3) If the resident of another state who is the holder of a valid license to carry a concealed weapon or concealed firearm issued in another state establishes legal residence in this state by registering to vote, or making a statement of domicile pursuant to s. 222.17, or filing for homestead tax exemption on property in this state, the license shall remain in effect for 90 days following the date on which the holder of the license establishes legal state residence. This section applies only to nonresident concealed weapon or concealed firearm licenseholders from states that honor Florida concealed weapon or concealed firearm licenses.

History.--s. 1, ch. 99-132.
 
Sorry, I meant to answer your question, Minnow...I apologize for that. Florida is a very gun friendly state. If you have a carry permit from a state that is recipricol with FL (like Alaska) then your permit is valid in FL. You must follow the rules of thae state you are in, though. They are slightly different.

Yes, you can have a gun onboard your boat. If boarded, just tell the boarding officer that you have a gun stored in whatever drawer and all will be fine. The best thing to do when you have a question about CG boardings in general, is to just call or stop in to your local CG station and ask to talk to a Boarding Officer or Law Enforcement Duty Officer. They'd be glad to help you.

Rick
 
Oh, and by the way. If we ever get into a gunfight with another group, I want to be on 416rigby's side unless Charles Bronson shows up with his Wildy .45, then we gotta think it over. If Byrdman brings the Air Force, all bets are off.
 
I have to agree with 416 Rigby. I don't own any semi auto pistols, but if I did, it would be a 1911. I own several wheel guns, and my favorite is my Dan Wesson .357, but when it comes to home protection and stopping wild animals, it's an old Model 12 (no plug) with 8's for home and slugs or 00 for everything else. Typical load in the closet is 3 8's followed by 2 00's with the last round being a slug.

Like Dan I've put many thousands of rounds through shotguns and pointing and shooting is natural. It goes on the boat along with my .357.

Just a thought however, a long gun is generally treated with fewer restrictions by state and local governments than handguns. The only exception seems to be in the Northeast, where I think even muzzleloaders, paint ball guns, or big knives will get you in trouble.
 
In the boat you probably should take the same precautions as you would in a car or RV. That is that the gun is unloaded, and the gun and amunition is locked in a separate compartment, unaccessable readily, from the helm or place where you are normally sitting in the boat.
From Florida law:

"It is lawful to possess a concealed firearm for self-defense or other lawful purposes within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use. A firearm other than a handgun may be carried anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use. This exemption does not authorize the carrying of a firearm concealed on the person."

This does not have anything to do with the concealed weapons permit. I have a Florida carry permit, and there are some pecularities of Florida law as to transporting a weapon from a car or boat, to your residence--which makes a carry permit desirable. But if you keep the gun in the car or boat, as noted above and don't carry it on your person, you will be fine.

One other item not mentioned is pepper spray--or bear repellant. Although pepper spray or tear gas is not allowed to be transported into Canada, there were some places in Canada where we were advised to carry "Bear repellant" by the local rangers--specifically on the Queen Charolette Islands in the mid 90's. States regulate tear gas differently, California used to require a permit, it is an over the counter item in Florida.
 
Mike, if trouble erupts somewhere, I want ol' Bill with his big chainsaw on my side!

an old Model 12
A man after my own heart! The Perfect Repeater...mine is a 16ga made in 1929. Aren't they great guns?

Dan...that's a good one, haven't heard it in a while! Actually the .416 Rigby is worse than the .500 Nitro. The .500 is just a big shove (570gr bullet @2150fps)...the .416 (400 grainer @ 2350fps) is a fast jab. They really are not hard to learn to shoot well...you just have to start slow and burn lots of powder.

My rifles are just toys...I hunt with my Freedom Arms revolvers...454 Casull and 475 Linebaugh. Built like Swiss watches and strong as a bank vault.
 
Lots of good information on this thread and I am not disagreeing with most of it, however I believe you are missing the most important thing, when it comes to personal protection with a firearm.

But first let me say I have limited experience with firearms, that is limited, not none. I have fired most calibers from .177 pellet gun to a 90mm tank gun. I am a decent shot with most except the 90mm tank gun and associated 30 cal machine gun.

I am going to speak about how I advise my family and friends on the use of a firearm for personal protection. Many will call me just before or right after calling the sheriff when they need help. When I talk about protection, I am talking about protection from the two legged predator.

Choose the largest gun you want to carry, have by your bedside, or fire, and is your LAST line of defense. This is NOT something you want to get into an OK corral type of shootout with the bad guys. If you plan on doing that, pick the tank. Me, I don’t want to carry a large bulky gun. Neither do most people I know. That is why I think a 38 revolver or 380 auto are good choices. If you are more comfortable with a larger gun use it.

The experts will not like to hear this, but in my experience and the experience of my family and friends, a gun is not hard to learn to use. It is not as hard to use, as it is to learn to ride a bike. And once you know how to use it, it is like ridding a bike. Again the experts are going to jump all over me, but once you are comfortable with your choice of gun, you don’t need to fire boxes of rounds through it each year. Once you know how to ride, you can quit for a year or more and still get back on the bike and ride it again, especially if it is the one you learned on. So fire it a few times once in a while, keep your gun clean and you will be OK with it.

NOW THE MOST IMPORTANT THING - YOUR MENTAL ATTITUDE. If you don’t think you can kill someone, think seriously about carrying a gun or having one for personal protection. When you pull a gun, you have to give clear orders to the bad guy, like STOP – DON’T MOVE. Almost always he will do exactly as you say or run away as fast as he can, while filling his pants. If he does not, you can’t hesitate. Point the gun at the middle of his chest and pull the trigger, not once then see what happens, but pull the trigger until he is laying prone. I recommend practicing killing the bad person mentally. It will help your mental attitude.

I speak from experience. I have been shot at once and have pulled the pistol I carry, on three different occasions. Never had to use it. Been arrested and or charged on two of the occasions. Both cases the prosecuting attorney dropped all charges when she could not get a plea bargain from me, for a lesser charge.

If you have read this far, it could be because what I say makes sense to you, or you strongly disagree but in the beginning when I said “I am a decent shot with most except the 90mm tank gun and associated 30 cal machine gun.” I did not mean I was a bad shot with the 90 and 30 machine gun. In 1961 and 1962 under simulated combat conditions, I was the best tank gunner in the US Army.

Do not base your decision on what type of gun, or if you are going to carry one on this thread or this post. Give it serious thought and do research until you are satisfied.
 
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