Bear Spray

I researched this several years ago before a trip to Montana. I concluded bear spray was more effective than firearms in practical terms. The sprays are aerosolized but way more concentrated than pepper spray and the discharge stream way more powerful (30’ range). The goal wasn’t to scare a charging bear but rather set its mucus membranes on fire to drive it off. Guns on the other hand require a quick draw and accurate/lethal shot. Apparently bear charges happen suddenly and unexpectedly. Firearms may be superior if the group has a “dedicated shooter “ standing watch. I fully agree with those who suggest lots of training if using a gun. Forget about a long gun: you won’t have time to shoulder and aim it. My Glock 19, even with carry ammo, would just piss the bear off. Plan accordingly.
Get whatever spray has the highest concentration; I have the Counter assault brand myself.
 
CC Rider":3mu0lbne said:
Those damned Canadians will make me alter my preference due to their anti-'Merica mentalities..
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There is nothing "anti-american" about Canadian gun laws. It is simply another country with different laws than what you have in the USA. American laws/beliefs don't apply to the rest of the world you know...as a police officer, you should understand this better than most.
Chris
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Some people are a tad too sensitive. I like Canada. It's like the little brother I constantly pick on yet when he's in trouble he comes running to me to protect him. :wink:

I obviously said I respect your laws. Hence, my altering my preference.
 
Boiling a lobster is my preferred method. But I'm humane about it. I have that water boiling hot before I drop them in! lol. (Grilled is ok too!)

Colby
 
colbysmith":3ryetfht said:
Boiling a lobster is my preferred method. But I'm humane about it. I have that water boiling hot before I drop them in! lol. (Grilled is ok too!)

Colby
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See, and I prefer on the grill. To each his own. I'm humane about it too. I rip their carapace from their tail. Done. Same with dungeness crab and spot shrimp. But the world, alas, has lost it's way. Up is down. Black is white. Good is evil...
 
I finally read that linked article. And they consider the accepted method of killing as any more humane than dropping in boiling (salted mind you) water?. I can be gullible; perhaps it was a sarcastic article? Maybe I should have snope checked it.... But I'm not surprised. The airlines are finally getting serious about the nonsense with emotional support animals. I've got some personal stories just dealing with dogs. But I think it's the exotic stuff of recent that finally caused a "wait a minute" moment! When Delta or United finally started writing some rules about it, our NonRev forum started seeing real time stories of the nonsense agents and crews were putting up with! Oh well, enuf politics from me today!
 
Here's a scary article, which makes a strong case for shotguns. I very much doubt bear spray would have done a lick of good in this case.

Speaking of the effect of a shotgun blast, the author wrote:

“Well, here's the thing you need to understand about shotguns. All of those pellets come out of the muzzle together just as if they were a slug, before they start to spread apart. The closer they are to the muzzle, the less they spread. At 15 feet, they might be the diameter of a saucer. At 10 feet, they are more like a steel fist.”

For more stories of this ilk, do a Google Search on “Craig Medred grizzly.” Craig is a first-rate, Anchorage-based outdoors writer who's been writing about human/bear interactions for more than 30 years.

Here's a quote from another Medred story, which caught my attention:

“Scientists who have spent their careers studying grizzlies will tell you the big bears don’t try to kill their prey, they just eat it. At some point, the quarry dies, but the death is never pretty.”
 
colbysmith":r708p29f said:
I finally read that linked article. And they consider the accepted method of killing as any more humane than dropping in boiling (salted mind you) water?. I can be gullible; perhaps it was a sarcastic article? Maybe I should have snope checked it.... But I'm not surprised.
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There is a certain portion of humanity that values animals and murderers over...babies...so yeah, I'm not surprised either. Assbackwards....
 
Andy, a 12 gauge is a devastating weapon, as anyone who has ever shot one can attest to. He is correct about the 00 shot; the closer from barrel to target, the smaller the spread, the more the punch.
 
Earlier today Andy had put me onto the writings by Craig Medred. I really enjoyed this Bear Spray, Yes or No...article which was written in June 2017. It is an excellent analysis of the "research" and individual cases. To me the conclusion is that bear spray works--but you had better be ready to kill the bear with a gun if the bear wants to make you its next meal.

The article Andy linked above, is also excellent. how many shot gun blasts to kill this bear? The bear does not stop with 3 or 6 at very close range (OK its bird shot..but still lethal at close range. I have seen humans killed with one blast of #7 bird shot, and its not a pretty picture.)
 
I've heard lots of bear stories....But, in coastal bear country you're probably going to come upon the bruin with no line of sight in a thicket of alders and won't be able to get a round off with a shotgun or rifle. And, you probably won't get the bear spray out in time. I prefer a large caliber handgun and a powerful rifle. The rifle for the unlikely time you have line of sight, and the handgun for close quarter last resort.
 
Contrary to the opinions given, so far, I don’t think killing a charging bear immediately, at least for the first shot is a must to stop it & that’s why I use brenneke 3 inch magnum slugs for my 12 ga Mossburg pump shotgun. These have extreme penetration as they are made out of hardened lead & travel at slightly over 1500 FPS & hit with just over 3000 lbs of energy. My point being if I have to shoot, then these slugs don’t have to hit the brain or other vitals to stop the bear mid stride. With a near center mass hit there is enough energy to knock it down, where more shots can then be made for the kill. Even at my best, when young & doing lots of shooting, hitting the brain of a charging bear would be a daunting task. I don’t fear freezing, only the time & body mechanics to make that kind of shot. One of the very few pistols that even comes close to this knock back or down power is the 50 cal Smith & Wesson revolver & it takes a whole lot more practice & ability to use then a short barreled pump shotgun. Even in the alders & I’ve been in lots of these dense thickets with bears around, I’d rather be & do carry my shotgun. I’ve shot thousands of rounds through pistols both low power & magnums, rifles also of low & high power with many different actions & my choice for bear defense is my 12 ga with the brenneke slugs. This a a link to their description & one of the places they can be purchased.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10020 ... g-box-of-5

Back to what’s best lead or pepper spray. If I’m on shore wandering with JoLee, she carry’s the pepper spray & I the shotgun. When alone I carry both & generally have a flare pistol & sometimes pencil bangers. The bangers aren’t going to help if surprised, but can be useful to scare a bear off that you have seen at some distance & is moving towards you. The most relaxed I’ve ever been, while walking on a remote area of Chichagof Island, SE Alaska was in 2015, when we cruised with Brent & Dixie & hiked to the White Sulfer Hot Springs from Mirror Harbor, a hike JoLee & I alone have made several times. With Brent & Dixie, while walking the trail, Brent brought up the rear carrying a shotgun, me in the front with mine & Dixie & JoLee carrying bear spray in between. Chichagof Island like Ken says does have many bears, but we still spend enjoyable time on shore there as we have in Baranof, Admiralty, & Yacobi Islands, which are known as the home of the big brown bears.

This has been a good discussion, which I’ve enjoyed. The many different view points interesting & worth consideration. Overall, I agree most with those that have stated, what’s best is what makes you the most comfortable with being on shore in bear country & not to afraid to be there.

My favorite area in SE Alaska is the ABC Islands, which not only have the highest concentration of brown bears, but all other wild life too. This combined with comparatively few people & it’s rugged beauty keeps drawing us back for more adventure. Many here are equipped with the perfect boats for exploring this area, so if it’s a consideration, don’t let the extreme unlikelihood of a bad bear experience stop you from seeing this unique area.

Jay
 
T.R. Bauer":1kljc7j0 said:
... in coastal bear country you're probably going to come upon the bruin with no line of sight in a thicket of alders and won't be able to get a round off with a shotgun or rifle.
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Carried on a sling over your shooting side shoulder, a shotgun with a pistol grip (no stock) and an 18-inch (shortest legal) barrel can be deployed very quickly. Next best thing to a cosmic ray gun.
 
Jay,
Do you believe that you are going to "stop" a charging bear with the 3000 Ft Lbs of the Brenneke slugs? I don't dispute that the rifled slug is the best weapon at short range for a grizzly in many ways. I might have carried one, had I figured out a way which was as non obstructive as the .44 mag (which is only about 1/3 the energy). I had given it considerable thought before making my decision. Again, different strokes for different folks--and I think that having to shoot a bear is both going to be very rare, and traumatic for all!...Thus the spray; try and trained myself to spray/and shoot... (with fairly low energy .44 specials).
But the mass of that animal is still moving, and the teeth are still capable as are the claws until that animal is really dead...

Don't know if you are familiar with the US forestry study--old, and flawed in many ways, by modern standards, but still interesting, if nothing from a historical value: https://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf Key is that the .375 H & H magnum came in 3rd after a .458 Winchester Mag and the almost un-shootable Weatherby .460 Mag. (over 6000 ft lbs). The 24" .375 with a 300 gr bullet gave almost 5000 ft lbs the 20" (which is what I believe the Forrest service still uses today) comes in at about 3800. But that was no where near the entire story. The 12 gauge (and it is considerably less than the Brenneke round) came in way down the line...

Relatively recent shooting in the Sitka area:https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/wil...-workers-kill-charging-brown-bear-near-sitka/ Several lessons there--one worker had the spray, the other rifle--decided that the rifle was the solution...Probably the correct call...but who knows.

Unless you have a heart/aorta/carotid artery shot or a brain/spinal cord shot, (and as we both know that is going to be very difficult) that animal is still going to keep coming.

Yep, I know that the .44 mag is a very distant down the line choice (But they scored it just above the 12 gauge)--despite at the time, having the best "results"...(I made the decision for .44 mag in 1991--and at that time basically the .454 Casull and the .500 S & W were not available. Not sure I would have chosen them if they were....)

I wonder how many shots the bird hunters in the article by Andy would have needed with a slug, rather than the bird shot? I was not aware of the Brenneke slugs--thanks for that info. I don't have any worry here--in Florida--we do have quite a few black bears--one not too far from my home last fall. But they are small, and generally very spooked by man. There were some attacks however in the last few years--most recent one in January. I usually carry when out and about--and if on the trail--.357 mag--probably enough for the bears around here--again, if..I don't carry my large pepper spray, but have one which has about a 15 foot range, which I often carry.

Sure wish I could get back to AK--but not going to happen--heck I am lucky to still be alive!

Take care-
 
How about a Mossberg Shockwave. It's not considered a pistol because it doesn't have a pistol grip and not considered a shotgun because the barrel is 14". It's legal in the US because it's registered as an other. There is a piece in the Canadian law that says if it was manufactured that way and not altered it was legal. Would need more research on that. But it sure would be easy to carry. I think I would prefer to carry a gun and spray. You don't get a choice on which way the wind is blowing.

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Bob, yes all the heavy magnum rifle calibers best known for Africa hunts & some on grizzly bears have much more energy & velocity than a 12 ga magnum & even carry more energy than a 12 ga out to several hundred yards. The advantage of the 12 ga with magnum slugs such as the benneke is the much larger diameter slug increases the amount of animal felt shock over similar energy from a much lower diameter bullet. Of course one of the really big bore magnum rifles in my opinion would have even more stopping power than the 12 ga, But you might need a gun bearer to lug it with you & that is the big advantage of the short barreled 12 ga. It has very little weight & size with hard hitting power. The caliber most compared with the 12 ga for bear defense is the 45-70 hand loaded with maximum powder & a heavy bullet weighting almost as much as a 1 oz 12 ga slug. Their energy & velocity are close & the .45 bullet expands quickly to almost the size of a 12 ga slug. Advantage more accurate up close & at longer distance then the 12 ga. Disadvantages very few, other than slightly heavier & cost more, along with having most likely to hand load the ammo to equal the 12 ga stopping power. If I didn’t already have the shotgun it would actually be my first choice to carry, due to its better accuracy & I for years when younger, used a lever action Winchester 25/35, 30/30 & the last a model 1895 Winchester 30/06 for hunting, which I still have.

I can’t say for sure the 12 ga with the magnum slugs will instantly stop a grizzly bear charge, but I have read over the years many accounts of this happening with the bear being knocked down even several times before stopped. Guides, I’ve talked to recommended their clients shoot the bear through the shoulders, which is called breaking them down & most often when shot anywhere near center mass with large caliber magnum they will go down, then if not broken down, will get back up & either charge or run away. This leads the hunter & guide into the dangerous business of now shooting at a moving enraged bear coming at them or going after it in the bush. I feel the 12 ga with the 3 in magnum at very close range to be at least equal to the large magnum rifles at the longer ranges they are used for with dangerous big game. If knocked down, with a quick firing pump or auto shotgun time is gained to quickly fire into it to stop it from coming again. Most big bore magnum rifles are bolt action & to slow to cycle for more quick shots even if knocked down. Most 45-70 are lever action & can be fired about as fast as a pump. Depending on the situation, if possible, I would try for a brain shot, but likely if a charge occurs it would be so quick & surprising that center mass would be the best or only option if even that.

In 1982, while hunting elk alone in the Salt Mountain Range in Wyoming, I was quietly walking along a game trail in a drizzling rain. The trail was along a very steep side hill, almost cliff like. Up a head in front of a large tree was I thought a rock. When I got less then 10 feet from it, the rock turned into a sleeping black bear, that awoke very startled & commenced to go around in circles huffing. The big tree blocked it from running directly away & it was close to straight up & down between us. Fortunately for me on about the 2nd or 3rd circle it dove off down the semi cliff face. I was so surprised by the rock turning into a bear, that even though, I was carrying my rifle in my right hand, I never raised it, so if the bear had come at me instead of just woofing in circles & then running, it would have had me. So I do know how one can be surprised & remain in-mobile & not even from fear. I don’t think this would happen again to me in SE Alaska where, when on shore, I’m always very alert for bears.

In a quick attack at very close quarters there would be no doubt whether to shoot or spray if possible. In more open terrain the decision when to spray would be much easier than when to shoot with knowing the hassle that will begin if having to kill, many might wait to long with a firearm thinking chances are it’s a false charge as most will be. As much as I’ve been around bears, I’ve only had one come pretty much directly at me & that was in 2007, when the bear was crossing the water to the camped kayakers. When I shot along side it-that bear ran directly away over the inland ridge, then circled back around out of sight with coming almost again directly at me before veering slightly & splashing into the water about 10 feet from me in the Mokai. The others came slowly seemingly to test what I would do. This is when I tried out different methods to back them off or instead me backing off.

Jody, I’ve carried a short barreled 12 ga with pistol grips while backpack hiking in the remote areas south of Yellowstone Park. They are ok with light loads, but even a high base slug or buck shot will really jar the wrist & the other hand better be holding tight. I tried one with a 2 & 3/4 inch magnum slug. Never again. I thought at first it had broke my wrist

Jay
 
How about a Mossberg Shockwave. It's not considered a pistol because it doesn't have a pistol grip and not considered a shotgun because the barrel is 14". It's legal in the US because it's registered as an other. There is a piece in the Canadian law that says if it was manufactured that way and not altered it was legal. Would need more research on that. But it sure would be easy to carry. I think I would prefer to carry a gun and spray. You don't get a choice on which way the wind is blowing.
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This weapon would be illegal in Canada. If you check the firearm regulations attached below it will indicate what is and isn't legal. Basically the shortest legal barrel length is (470mm) 18.5" and the shortest legal firearm length for a shotgun of this type would be (660mm) 26". Also in most cases you cannot have a magazine capacity of more than five cartridges.

You would also need to check with the RCMP before you arrive at the border for additional permits. Hundreds of guns are confiscated at the US border each year and fines and jail times may also be applied.

You also have to consider where you might want to carry a gun in Canada. Much of the most beautiful land where you might want to hike, like National Parks, Provincial Parks and Marine Parks have a total ban on firearms. Bear spray is very common and encouraged. It is also now being encouraged to carry it in the winter as well. Bears are often waking up early or in mid winter more often due to climate change. Also there is a steady rise in the cougar population and they are active all winter. Especially at risk are small children and small women. Each year a few people are killed by cougars in Canada, possibly more than by bears.

You must also consider the culture of the country you are visiting. In 50 years of hiking in bear country, I have only once encountered a person with a firearm outside of hunting season. Whereas in Arizona a few years ago, I encountered about a dozen hikers, mountain bikers and horseback riders with side arms in one week. Carrying a firearm outside of hunting season without the express purpose of hunting may be illegal, but more so is culturally unacceptable in Canada.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/faq/index-eng.htm
 
Some very interesting reading starting in regards to guns. I know nothing about, so a lot of french, but still good to see folks talking mechanics instead of politics! Regarding bears charging or coming slowly. One of the things I read talked about a charge vs stalking or preying. If the bear is charging, it's probably a one time thing if you can stop it or if it's a bluff. However, if it has you in mind for food, it's going to be coming at you slow and steady. In fact one of the articles discussed that in a charge, it's nostrils are flairing and it's eyes wide open, thus the spray is going to hit it pretty hard. OTOH, if it's stalking you for a meal, and coming down low with nostrils closed and eyes squinted (as it would going into a beehive to lesson the stings), the spray is not going to be as effective.

Peter, Arizona is another place. Closer to the old wild west! lol
 
Jay, Thanks for your reply and experience. From the Forrest Service study, I was surprised at little energy the 45-70's had--dependent on barrel length, and cartridge. I note that with Buffalo Bore, in 45-70 there is a 405 gr with 3595 ft. lbs. vs the 300 gr with 1849 ft. lbs in the Forrest Service paper as the max round available in 1983.

My experience is with humans who have been shot--and I have been amazed at how they keep going, especially when "high" on various substances--and how many rounds it takes to stop a man. Lots of variables with both bears and other mammals.
 
Peter & Judy":2bi5029d said:
Carrying a firearm outside of hunting season without the express purpose of hunting may be illegal, but more so is culturally unacceptable in Canada.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/faq/index-eng.htm
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Thanks for sharing this, Peter and Judy. I didn't see any information in the link you provided about the legality of carrying a firearm, out of season, without the express purpose of hunting. If that's accurate—if it's prohibited—it ends my consideration of a firearms option for the Inside Passage. Similarly, I would like to hear more about cultural norms in Canada—and coastal B.C. in particular—relating to guns and bear protection.

In my opinion, if U.S. residents are unwilling to honor Canadian cultural values, we have no business entering your country.
 
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