Bear Spray

In my opinion, if U.S. residents are unwilling to honor Canadian cultural values, we have no business entering your country.

And visa versa.

I just checked with a local firearms dealer here in Powell River. With a valid firearms license ( this is not a hunting license) Canadians can pack shot gun that is unmodified from the factory with a minimum length of barrel of 18 inches and an overall length of 26 1/2 inches for personal protection. That said I have only seen one person pack a gun on the trails around here, which many of you would find virtual wilderness.

He wasn't sure if the same reg would apply to non Canadian's.
He suggests contacting 1-800-731-4000 the RCMP firearms office. I called and they said just declare a long gun at the border, pay the $25 fee and you are good to go. A hand gun is a totally different story though.

Cheers
Ron
 
thataway":18s8yr19 said:
My experience is with humans who have been shot--and I have been amazed at how they keep going, especially when "high" on various substances--and how many rounds it takes to stop a man. Lots of variables with both bears and other mammals.
Bob, I too have been amazed over my lifetime at what injuries animals including humans can take & still carry on & then how small a injury can cause death. Several years ago, I read a study performed on a small herd of bison, that answered for me at least in some cases why shooting different animals in almost exactly the same area of the body with identical rifle & ammo, there could be such an extreme difference of ones dying instantly, while another may continue on for long distances or take several more hits to kill. The study with the bison indicated that instant death from a body shot was determined mostly by the stage of the heart beat. When the blood vessels where at max pressure as the bullet impacted it caused a further spike of pressure throughout the body rupturing many of the capillaries, especially those in the brain bringing on the instant death. During the low pressure heart stage none of this extensive damage elsewhere occurred. I can’t find the information on it now & don’t know if has been replicated or more such studies done since. I can’t remember now if during the test they were trying to make heart shots or near heart in other vital organs.

On the article that Pandion shared that had this quote “Scientists who have spent their careers studying grizzlies will tell you the big bears don’t try to kill their prey, they just eat it. At some point, the quarry dies, but the death is never pretty.” I think many who haven’t spent time observing animals in the wild don’t realize that this quote is the norm with all the predators. Us humans actually being the exception now as we mostly prefer our meat meals being cooked. As many animals as I’ve killed to eat since I was young, I would have to be very hungry before throwing a crab or lobster alive into a boiling pot of water. One can easily be shocked by or become accustomed to the different cultural behaviors of people.
 
Pandion":1o1gz78b said:
Peter & Judy":1o1gz78b said:
Carrying a firearm outside of hunting season without the express purpose of hunting may be illegal, but more so is culturally unacceptable in Canada.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/faq/index-eng.htm
Thanks for sharing this, Peter and Judy. I didn't see any information in the link you provided about the legality of carrying a firearm, out of season, without the express purpose of hunting. If that's accurate—if it's prohibited—it ends my consideration of a firearms option for the Inside Passage. Similarly, I would like to hear more about cultural norms in Canada—and coastal B.C. in particular—relating to guns and bear protection.

In my opinion, if U.S. residents are unwilling to honor Canadian cultural values, we have no business entering your country.
I agree with obeying the laws & trying not to offend the cultural values of any foreign country visited, but in doing so one must realize that just like her in the US, different states & even different areas in the states can differ greatly. The differences between rural & the major population areas of California can be just as different as here in Wyoming to the cities along the east edge of the Rockies such as Boulder to Denver, Colorado. And from my experience the same occurs in Canada. I doubt if carrying a shotgun along in the outback of the Yukon Territory will offend many you may meet, except in a Park area & even there not near like it would in other Canadian areas. In 2001, we first explored Atlin Lake, which is very close to the Yukon area @ most of the lake head area a Provincial Park. After walking close to the Llewelyn Glacier face, where we saw much bear sign, we returned to the town of Atlin & while there talked to many of its residents about our experiences. They laughed at us & said they never went into the back country, where we were hiking without being armed & not with just bear spray like us. In the northwest areas of Canada, I have found no negative reaction to having a shotgun for bear protection. One just has to make sure they wouldn’t indicate even thinking about using it for personal protection against humans. On this subject, I’ve listened to long lectures, while doing the border entry process, while confirming registration of the shotgun.

In 2001, we drove on over 1500 miles of gravel roads of the Yukon & some into the Northwest Territories in a 4x4 van pulling a inflatable boat on a trailer. We were seeking out remote rivers & lakes to explore. In the process, while passing through the mostly native town of Ross River, we had a very disturbing conversation with the grocery/hardware store owner there. The town was enduring tough times at this point due to the different 1st Nation clans in legal battle over mineral rights & most work was at a stand still. In the middle of the day there were drunk older folk stumbling about & very rebellious younger ones being obnoxious. The store owner said the older folk were being preyed on by the younger, who new when there checks came in & then would break in & take their money & tell them if anything was said, it would be even worse for them. Some had fire arms, but they were afraid to break the law to use them for defense. This is the only town in all our Canadian travels we didn’t want to be anywhere near for the night. I love visiting Canada, but also very glad to have home be a small Wyoming town in the USA.

Jay
 
Peter & Judy wrote:
Carrying a firearm outside of hunting season without the express purpose of hunting may be illegal, but more so is culturally unacceptable in Canada.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/faq/index-eng.htm

Thanks for sharing this, Peter and Judy. I didn't see any information in the link you provided about the legality of carrying a firearm, out of season, without the express purpose of hunting. If that's accurate—if it's prohibited—it ends my consideration of a firearms option for the Inside Passage. Similarly, I would like to hear more about cultural norms in Canada—and coastal B.C. in particular—relating to guns and bear protection.

In my opinion, if U.S. residents are unwilling to honor Canadian cultural values, we have no business entering your country.

Thanks for the interest in Canadian cultural values when it comes to firearms in this country. I know that this is not a political forum and I will try to avoid politics in this. I will try to pass on my understanding of US history as best I understand it, my education background in part included studies in university in Canadian Studies, so my knowledge of Canadian history and politics is deeper. Canada and the U.S. are two very similar countries in many ways, as we are both parts of the new world, settled mostly by Europeans who took the land away from the native peoples that were here first. But there are differences in our history that make us different. We both had the same colonial parent England. But in 1776 when the 13 American colonies decided to separate, they did so by violent revolution and warfare. Some American colonists who wished to remain under the English crown, moved north to the Canadian Colonies, and became the United Empire Loyalists. The disputes over Canadian Colonies, between the French and the English, was settled in 1759 at the Battle of the Plains of Abraham in Quebec. The English won, the French lost and decided it wasn’t worth fighting any more battles over a few beaver pelts. By 1867 the English Crown decided along with the Canadians that we might all be better off if the Canadians would take over governing themselves. We remained a part of the British Commonwealth of Nations and Queen Elizabeth II is still our Queen. We don’t need a president because we have a Queen and thus avoid a lot of politics every four years.

During and around this time between American Independence and Canadian Confederation our histories were very different. The US was still technically at war with England and did attack Canada in 1812 in an attempt to take the Canadian Colonies away from England. The English/Canadian Army retaliated and burned the Whitehouse. During this time the southern US States had an economy based on slavery, where as there was no slave trade to speak of in Canada. The US also adopted the 2nd amendment in 1791 to allow for militias to counter the threats of the English armies and in case there was an uprising amongst the slaves. The American civil war was one of the bloodiest wars of the 19th century and left deep scares in the US, that I see as still being there within some citizens of your country. During this time Canada lived in relative peace. In the second half of the 19th century there was a great movement to settle the west and the US waged many bloody wars with the Indians and also wiped out the great buffalo herds. Settlement of the Canadian west came later, basically after the American west was full. Typically in the US the settlers came first and the law came later. In the Canadian west the law arrived before the settlers. The North West Mounted Police was formed in 1873 and marched west the next year. The fear was that now as the American west was filling up, there would be a move by American settlers to occupy the lands of Canada. There was also a need to clear out the American Whiskey Traders who were wrecking havoc with the Indians, sign treaties with the Indians and open the land for orderly settlement. The NWMP were originally going to be called the NWM Regiment, but there was a fear that given that name, the very experienced US Cavalry would want to test their fighting skills. So they decided to name them the NWM Police instead. They were also dressed in the very British Red Serge uniforms to make them more visible to both the Indians and the Americans. By the time the settlers arrived, the Indians were settled on their reservations, there were police posts in all of the regions and settlement went forward in a very peaceful and orderly manor. This is why there are so few western movies based on the Canadian experience, as compared the American west. In reality it was boring here and the cowboys would rather play polo that go to the saloon.

One more example was the Klondike Gold Rush in 1898. When gold was discovered in Yukon it set a mad rush of men looking to get rich. Most of these men were Americans. When they arrived at the Canadian border, the mounted police were there to make sure they didn’t get into trouble. At the top of the Chilikoot Pass and the White Pass the Mounties checked that they had a ton of supplies each, enough food and clothing to survive a year in the Canadian north. When they arrived at Dawson City they were met by NWMP’s commanding Officer Sam Steele who confiscated all of the Americans guns. There was little violence in Dawson, the saloons, casinos and brothels were all closed on Sundays. This was a contrast to other mining boom towns south of the border like Tombstone, Arizona, where a ‘Boot Hill’ was a common part of the landscape.

So with the different history of our country where for the most part we have been able to live safely and peacefully, we have developed a different attitude towards firearms. Canadians are avid hunters, we will go to war when necessary, but we have never started a war. Ownership of firearms is highly restricted, but if you are hunter or rancher like myself, long guns are not too hard to obtain. Handguns, assault rifles and other military style firearms are either highly restricted or prohibited. Most Canadians feel no need to own firearms for personal protection. Gun violence and violent crime is quite low in our country. Most of the handguns used by criminals are smuggled in from the US. This is one of the reasons that the Canadian Border Agents are so tough on importation of guns into Canada by visitors. There are no open carry permits available to the general public, this is limited to law enforcement, or those that might need protection in their jobs like armored car drivers. To purchase firearms or ammunition you need to take training and be registered as a firearm owner. Police checks and permits are required for all firearm purchases. Canadians for the most part trust our government and police.

As far as the culture of carrying firearms in Canada, I rarely see guns except in hunting season. When not in use they must be properly stored in locked metal cabinets or with trigger locks, unloaded. Firearms are not legal in our National Parks, Provincial Parks and Marine Parks. They are legal on private lands and most public lands and can be carried for protection there if there is a threat from dangerous wildlife, this does not include handguns or restricted firearms. In very remote areas you may be more likely to see people with guns, but in more populated areas most people do not carry guns in the wilderness. My nephew, who works in BC forestry industry on the west coast of BC as a forester, often alone and on foot, only carries bear spray, as do all of his co-workers.

I have spent most of my life in Grizzly bear country and I have never carried a firearm for protection from man or beast. I started carrying bear spray perhaps 15 years ago, as well as bear bangers. I have had about 30 bear encounters in the wild. I have thought hard about whether I would carry a firearm into the wilderness, but I have decided that with my limited firearm experience it might prove to be more of a hazard than a safety device. In a close range surprise attack by a grizzly, I feel my chances would be better with bear spray than with a gun. I have no intention or desire to ever kill a bear and would only want to deter the attack. I am after all intruding in the bear’s home territory and maybe I deserve what I get for being there. Grizzly bears are on the endangered species list, human beings are not. Every year 2 or 3 people are killed by bears in Canada and I feel that if I use my head, make my presence known to the bear, turn around when necessary and carry bear spray and bangers, my odds are pretty good of survival.
 
localboy":8z7atfnn said:
But the world, alas, has lost it's way. Up is down. Black is white. Good is evil...
Mark, I hope you don't mind me poking fun at you a little :wink: ........

I love politics.....it's my "blood sport" (I am uninterested in football, baseball, or any other team sport). As I pursue my "sport", I run into statements like yours above....sometimes from one end of the political spectrum and sometimes from the other end.

An image then often comes to my mind....(I just can't seem to shake it :wink: :lol:) ........

I see a person, clearly a very healthy and talented person, standing on their head. They exclaim: "What the hell, everyone is upside down."
 
In line with Jay's comments, one fine day on Graham in the Charlottes, I saw a couple guys put down a young black bear, adjacent to a contemporary Haida cemetery, all within a hundred yards of the village. Nobody blinked or took much notice of the two shots from their deer rifles.

This village is on the grid, but a looooong ways from Vancouver or any other large population centers.

Canadian bush rules can be pretty wild.
 
Peter and Tosca, your two comments above have got to be the best I've read in a long time! :) In fact, I hope you don't mind I share them on my Facebook wall! (I'll simply give credit to "friends on another forum".) Also gave the link. Colby
 
This weapon would be illegal in Canada. If you check the firearm regulations attached below it will indicate what is and isn't legal. Basically the shortest legal barrel length is (470mm) 18.5" and the shortest legal firearm length for a shotgun of this type would be (660mm) 26". Also in most cases you cannot have a magazine capacity of more than five cartridges.

So this one is sold in BC and is in stock. It's pretty much the same gun with a 14" barrel. So it sure looks like the Shockwave would be legal.


059CE2E9_E345_420B_9D6A_8AE6F86E6E3B.jpg
[/img]
 
I have absolutely no opinion on bear protection but I have a Shockwave. If you get one practice, practice, practice! Because they are mostly shot from the side of your hip or ribs I have a tendency to shoot high, especially at close distances. They have a surprisingly tight pattern at 15 yards. And that’s in a non-threatening situation. With buck shot you will have 9 or fewer pellets and with a slug... well. If you aim this gun it must be held solidly as far away from your face as possible, and even then you might get excited and forgetful ( or sweaty palms ) and have a miserable trip back to civilization and the dentist. Check out YouTube for videos on how to handle the shockwave.
 
colbysmith":16cz376l said:
Thinking about buying some bear spray before traveling into bear country. (South end of Inside Passage this summer, and then Alaska portion next summer (2019)). Just wondering what others recommend or have used or purchased. I'm looking at Counter Assault off of Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00WAUWQQO/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1

Man this turned into a SHIT SHOW!
:roll: :lol: :roll: :lol: :roll: :lol: :lol:

pay attention to your surroundings & have fun!!


Track.jpg
 
The US was still technically at war with England and did attack Canada in 1812 in an attempt to take the Canadian Colonies away from England. The English/Canadian Army retaliated and burned the Whitehouse.

Ok now you did it. I know that this un truth is put forward these days but as stated its simple not true. Quick version is this. the Brits and the French were at war at the time , Like when are they not?, and both were capturing and imprisoning american sailors at sea. Common practice at the time if you were at war with another country. Which the Brits decided they still were with America. The brits had not considered the US as a Free country at the time. Just a Colony in revolt. First is a great trend to tear down a evil monarchy. The US asked both the french and the English to knock it off and the french agreed, the British did not. A punitive raid was ordered , not a invasion or attempt to take . land. Yes the brits burned the white house but caused very little real damage. The British army, known at the time as one of the best in the world , was later thoroughly ass kicked at New Orleans by a bunch of drunks, hill billies and even some damm pirates.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL7XS_8qgXM here is a little song about it.

I had to correct my sons history teacher about this years ago. When the history was distorted to blame the US for starting this is unknown but I blame unseen Canadian forces. :wink:

Now back to guns and bears. I do not think that the short pistol or short handled shot guns are a very good idea for anything but what they were designed for. Which is to shoot someone that is standing right it front of you, say with in 10 ft at most. I have shot these a bit on the range in the Marines. We were testing out different weapons for close combat, ( not a US Marine Corps sanctioned project, more of a I got to much time on my hands and free ammo and if I dont think of something soon for these jar heads to do the ass kissing LT will, Jar head kind of thing ) But we did take is seriously and compared the shot pattern and accuracy at different yardages. Without doubt a short gun barreled shot gun with a regular stock placed firmly into the shoulder is the most accurate and effective weapon for close combat . The same weapon fired from the hip was only half as effective past 5 yards. (15 ft) and I found that pistol grip shot guns to be worthless past 3 yards. To many off center shots, low or high shots etc. to hard and much slower to pump the next round. I can reload a shot gun that is still in my shoulder with out taking sights off of the target. I prefer a auto over a pump in any shot gun but there are very few made in a shorter defense version. A pump action shot gun placed in the shoulder was the most accurate, easy to load , quickest to deploy of the group. And just from memory I think we had a a 12 ga. with a pistol grip in the rear. One with a pistol grip at both ends. a 12 ga with a regular stock , and a regular rear stock with a vertical grip forward. Oh and some one had a 410 pump with a grip forward. You could not miss with that thing. No kick and you never got off target. One problem with the guns that have a vertical handle on the forward grip is that it would hang up on almost everything taking off the shoulder. About half the time. It did however give you far better control and speed on reload. Great feature for the house gun but not for a field weapon. We shot all the weapons starting from but the ready ( In both hands in from of your chest) and slinged position on the shoulder.

So not very scientific but 10 jar heads with free ammo will figure out the best setup in short order.
 
I agree 100% with your “pay attention to your surroundings & have fun!!, but if you really believe the discussion has turned into a “shit show” why are you wading in the crap :roll: :lol: As for me this has been one of the more enjoyable threads I’ve followed & been part of in quite awhile.

Jay
 
Britain had enforced a naval blockade to choke off neutral trade to France, which the United States contested as illegal under international law. To man the blockade, Britain impressed American merchant sailors into the Royal Navy.

The British supplied Indians who conducted raids on American settlers on the frontier, which hindered American expansion and also provoked resentment.[16] Historians remain divided on whether the desire to annex some or all of British North America

At sea, the powerful Royal Navy blockaded American ports, cutting off trade and allowing the British to raid the coast at will. In 1814, one of these raids burned the capital, Washington, although the Americans subsequently repulsed British attempts to invade New England and capture Baltimore.

Just the Highlights. yep the war was started by the damm brits and us North Americans suffered for it.

[/url]
 
Peter and Judy:

Yours are some of the most coherent and thoughtful observations I've read in a while. Really helps me understand the sensibility of that part of the world which doesn't clamor for firearms.

I'm a gun enthusiast personally, but I would never wish to make someone uncomfortable with my possession or handling of guns. (With the possible exception of an evil-doer out to harm me). Your point about the arrogance of choosing to enter bear country for pleasure, then possibly killing a bear for bear behavior, really got my attention.

Even in US national parks guns are rare and probably offensive to most visitors, being as they are contrary to the spirit of peaceful communing with nature.

Good points for us gun owners to remember, thanks!
Mike
 
Tom":ofg7azu3 said:
I do not think that the short pistol or short handled shot guns are a very good idea for anything but what they were designed for. Which is to shoot someone that is standing right it front of you, say with in 10 ft at most.

and

Without doubt a short gun barreled shot gun with a regular stock placed firmly into the shoulder is the most accurate and effective weapon for close combat . The same weapon fired from the hip was only half as effective past 5 yards. (15 ft) and I found that pistol grip shot guns to be worthless past 3 yards.

and

So not very scientific but 10 jar heads with free ammo will figure out the best setup in short order.
Tom, you seem to be raising two new interesting lines of inquiry, related to criminal intent (on the part of the bear), and range. At what range would you make a determination about the bear's intent, and start shooting? Would it be the same range for rifle and shotgun? Might you shoot a little earlier if you were carrying a rifle? If, for some impossible reason, you were only carrying pepper spray, when would you let loose?

Also, is there a firing range (or a gravel pit) out your way where we could put some of these ideas to the test?
 
Just the Highlights. yep the war was started by the damm brits and us North Americans suffered for it.

It is interesting how history is written from different perspectives. I studied in a Canadian University with Canadian and British Textbooks. If you studied in an American University and used American Testbooks, your perspective would be different. It is always interesting to read different perspectives of historical events and make your own decisions. Below is an introductory quote from the Canadian Encyclopedia. There is a link below with the complete short article, which is very interesting.

“The War of 1812 (which lasted from 1812 to 1814) was a military conflict between the United States and Great Britain. As a colony of Great Britain, Canada was swept up in the War of 1812 and was invaded a number of times by the Americans. The war was fought in Upper Canada, Lower Canada, on the Great Lakes and the Atlantic, and in the United States. The peace treaty of Ghent, which ended the war, largely returned the status quo. However, in Canada, the war contributed to a growing sense of national identity, including the idea that civilian soldiers were largely responsible for repelling the American invaders. In contrast, the First Nations allies of the British and Canadian cause suffered much because of the war; not only had they lost many warriors (including the great Tecumseh), they also lost any hope of halting American expansion in the west, and their contributions were quickly forgotten by their British and Canadian allies. Similarly, Black volunteers, including those in the Coloured Corps, received little recognition or reward for their service.”

For more visit: http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/e ... r-of-1812/

For more interesting reading:

The Invasion of Canada 1812- 1813, Pierre Berton, McCelland & Stewart 1980

Flames Across the Border 1813 – 1814, Pierre Berton, McCelland & Stewart 1981
Also
Klondike, The Last Great Gold Rush 1896 – 1899, Pierre Berton, McCelland & Stewart 1972

Just to keep this topic valid with the thread on Bear Spray. I have reviewed the Canadian and British Textbooks and as far as I can tell, neither the British Army nor the American Army carried bear spray during the War of 1812.
 
Peter & Judy":2uqub0oa said:
It is interesting how history is written from different perspectives.
An American perspective on the War of 1812 from PBS essay:

Most scholars agree that the war was fought over maritime issues, particularly the Orders in Council, which restricted American trade with the European Continent, and impressment, which was the Royal Navy’s practice of removing seamen from American merchant vessels. In contemporary parlance, the war was fought for "Free Trade and Sailors' Rights." These issues seem arcane today. Moreover, the only way that the United States to strike at Great Britain was by attacking Canada, and that made it look like a war of territorial aggression. Even today Canadians are likely to see the war in this light, and who can blame them? A war fought to secure maritime rights by invading Canada strikes many people as curious.

 
Back
Top