USS Fitzgerald

Art in Fairfield Harbour":309gbrlm said:
Question: Was the merchant vessel on autopilot? AIS seems to say so. Did merchant vessel have a radar / visual watch? Who was on the bridge - anyone?
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Most large commercial ships run on auto pilot almost all of the time. If not on auto pilot--the steering is with a jog stick or lever controlling the electro/hydraulic steering system. This is common in many yachts in the 50 foot on up size these days.

The merchant ship certainly should have some one on the bridge--they would have the radar on all of the time. In an area this crowded, there would be at least 2 people on the bridge, maybe 3. At sea on a passage, often only one. (and they may be asleep, getting a cup of coffee--or relieving themselves..)

Only once did I have to use the searchlight on the bridge trick--it work up the single watch stander on a 600 foot ship.
 
I cannot read the article (I have "exceeded my free monthly limit for the New York Times".

I wonder how much "over scheduled" the sailors, Marines and Army grunts were during WW I I ?

You join the military, it is a commitment. I don't know the Navy Watch, schedule, but in our boats with two aboard, it is 3 hours on watch and 3 off watch. (Sometimes you don't get to sleep on that "off". In very crowded lanes--Panama Canal entrances, English Channel, Cape Finestere, Straits of Messina we dealt with very crowded waterways at night. You have to be constantly watching the lights and radar. No question it is fatiguing and stressful. But there are a number of people on watch on the Navy ships--to be sure that these type of mistakes are not made.
 
Hey Folks,

To answer Thataway's question, underway watches in the Navy are four hours on a rotational basis. Deck department will often "Dog" the mid-watch to two hours. Engineering and other departments watches are also four hours.

Y'all take care and be safe,
Spuncopper
 
Any boat, (yup, any boat) running on auto pilot does not obviate the requirement
to keep watch visually or electronically, preferably both, especially in charted
crowded passages. Open sea watch is less stringent albeit still risky; refer to trans
ocean single handed sailors.

With ship's watch, and a collision is imminent, a change of course to avoid
collision is mandatory as well as sounding the international danger signal:
5 loud horn blasts to alert all involved.

Apparently, the above was lacking for the Fitzgerald and McCain.

Spells and smells like negligence to me sorry to say.

Aye.
 
thataway":3mf8rv0i said:
I cannot read the article (I have "exceeded my free monthly limit for the New York Times".

I wonder how much "over scheduled" the sailors, Marines and Army grunts were during WW I I ?

You join the military, it is a commitment. I don't know the Navy Watch, schedule, but in our boats with two aboard, it is 3 hours on watch and 3 off watch. (Sometimes you don't get to sleep on that "off". In very crowded lanes--Panama Canal entrances, English Channel, Cape Finestere, Straits of Messina we dealt with very crowded waterways at night. You have to be constantly watching the lights and radar. No question it is fatiguing and stressful. But there are a number of people on watch on the Navy ships--to be sure that these type of mistakes are not made.
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I don't exactly disagree with you, but humans cannot for long periods of time be pushed beyond certain physiological limits. Those humans and their supervisors will often insist they are functioning OK, but it simply is not true after those limits have been substantially exceeded.

The navy has been operating pretty much on combat conditions for years, and often ships are undermanned. This was a serious problem while I served many decades ago. Fortunately no collisions - but I could tell tales!

ps - to exceed limits on articles per time period switch it to 'private window'. They keep track by means of cookies stored on your computer. Private window erases those cookies, but only ones opened during the session.
 
Robb, Thanks for the tip! You learn something every day on C Brats!

The article says 5 hours on, and 10 off--the subs apparently have gone to 3hours on and 9 off.

To those who do not know what "dogging" a watch is--it is a rotation, so that you don't always spend the same hours on watch every night (or day). There are a number of ways to do it--make one watch shorter or one longer, or leave one person or group of people out of a rotation.


Needless to say, during my medical training we had many months where the duty was 36 on and 12 off (if you were lucky). On DeBakey's service, the Chief resident was on for the entire month. There would be many nights when you were lucky to get a couple of hours sleep. There are some who cannot acclimate to that type of schedule. There are others who only seem to require 3 hours of sleep at night (including Dr. Debakey). I have known a number of very competent people who do very well with short sleep periods.


I suspect as young sailor, that there is a temptation to not sleep on those off watch times. (and the article noted that other duties also were given during the off watch hours.)

The article states "Still, they typically are under 25 and may have little shipboard experience. Junior officers also move on to other assignments after limited tours."

I would hope that the difficult watches--especially the night watch in such a crowded strait, that senior and experienced officers and enlisted men were also on the watch to be sure that the younger sailors did not fail in their duty.

I have not been in combat, but from what I have seen and been told, it is far more intense that what is involved in routine patrols.
 
RobLL.[/quote said:
ps - to exceed limits on articles per time period switch it to 'private window'. They keep track by means of cookies stored on your computer. Private window erases those cookies, but only ones opened during the session.
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Thank you, Thank you, Thank you! Such a simple solution yet it has escaped me all this time :roll:
 
that away":x3rpnt4b said:
SNIP
Needless to say, during my medical training we had many months where the duty was 36 on and 12 off (if you were lucky). On DeBakey's service, the Chief resident was on for the entire month. There would be many nights when you were lucky to get a couple of hours sleep. There are some who cannot acclimate to that type of schedule. There are others who only seem to require 3 hours of sleep at night (including Dr. Debakey). I have known a number of very competent people who do very well with short sleep periods.
SNIP
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Not so sure I'd pound my chest about rendering medical care on lack of sleep and
think it results in quality care for the patient. The US falls way behind others in
actually delivering care to our countrymen/women/children, especially the
underprivileged, realizing other factors at work here in addition to the tired and
overworked.

“In comparison to adults in the other 10 countries, adults in the United States are
sicker and more economically disadvantaged,” the report reads.
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-c ... last-again
health-compared-other-countries-n684851

U.S. Healthcare Ranked Dead Last Compared To 10 Other Countries
www.forbes.com Jul 25, 2017

Aye.
 
Foggy":2uqvqamd said:
Not so sure I'd pound my chest about rendering medical care on lack of sleep and
think it results in quality care for the patient. The US falls way behind others in
actually delivering care to our countrymen/women/children, especially the
underprivileged, realizing other factors at work here in addition to the tired and
overworked.
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Foggy, if you want to post a link on this forum here is the way to do it, so it is easily found: first hit "URL" in the upper message header. Then hit back space, and put an "=" sign, then paste the link inside the parens. Next forward space, put in a subject. After the subject, hit "URL*".. and continue with your message.

Here is your NBC News link.

In fact the "report in the Commonwealth fund" has nothing to do with sleep deprivation or even the quality of medical care--The quote from the "article": relates socio-economic issues.

An 11-country survey finds that adults in the United States are far more likely than those in other countries to go without needed care because of costs and to struggle to afford basic necessities such as housing and healthy food. U.S. adults are also more likely to report having poor health and emotional distress. Bright spots for the U.S. include rates of timely access to specialist care, discussion with a physician about ways to lead a healthy life, and coordinated hospital discharge planning.
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One has to differentiate a " survey " from a liberal think tank vs a peer reviewed scientific study. Since political discussions are banned from this forum, for good reason, I will leave it at that.

No one is "Chest beating"--I was stating fact. Today, the interns (Now PG 1) don't have the long hours which were required in the late 1950's and early 1960's. They also are paid a "livable wage". But there are prices to pay for that. Last week I was talking with a GYN surgeon who had a resident assigned. He told the student to be in the OR by 7 AM, and he was going to do a rare and difficult procedure. The resident responded that he could not be there, because he did not come on duty until 9 AM that day! In my experience in a major academic hospital, I saw far more errors of judgement by presumably well rested attending physicians, than by the resident and intern physicians who were on call for long hours.

This thread should not deteriorate into the economics of medical care in the US. The thread is about potential causes for the collision of a warship and loss of lives.
Apparently the watch is 5 hours on and 10 off. Personally I don't see this causing sleep deprivation.
 
For any number of sailors, and especially for commanding officers watch may be in addition to other duties, which for some are what we would call a full time job. While I know this is true for 'captains' I am not sure regarding others pulling watch duty. Anyone know?
 
I am sure that navy watch keepers have other duties as do commercial. and recreational mariners. It would appear that both recreational and commercial, tend to spend more hours on watch than Navy.

There is a most interesting PDF document:
Annual Overview of Marine Casualties and Incidents 2015.pdf this is compiled by the European Maritime Safety Agency. It involves mostly EU flagged ships, with a few recreational vessels. It is only a fraction of collisions or accidents at sea. EU flagged ships and their incidents are only a small fraction of those world wide.--Those alone 3025 accidents. 99 very serious,51 ships lost, 1075 persons injured and 136 fatalities.

Another looks at
reasons for collisions involving mostly merchant ships.

This is by a risk management for merchant ships company: (somewhat condensed)

Causes of collisions
During the age of steam, but before the introduction of radar for commercial shipping, insufficient lookouts as well as lack of uniform collision prevention rules could be considered the main cause. Once the radar was introduced, and as ships’ speed increased, improper radar plotting, wrong evaluation of the radar observations, combined with insufficient or complete lack of lookouts, caused collisions.

And today, in an age of highly sophisticated electronic navigational aids, where do we look when examining the multi-faceted possible causes of collisions?

Various publications exist on the subject of proper watch-keeping and collision avoidance. Nevertheless, the same errors and mistakes occur, again, and again. To be fair, one has to make distinctions when looking at the causes of collisions.

Manning
. Ship managers apply for the lowest possible number of crew and flag states are often too lenient and accept managers’ statements, neglecting the requirements for qualification and training of those assigned for watch-keeping duties. As a result, we have chronically under-manned ships, especially in the short-sea trade. This in turn causes a dilemma for the master, who is required to maintain safe navigational watches on board his ship.

How can the master of a ship comply with the necessity of posting a lookout during every watch, if the ship’s complement is reduced to the lowest legal limit?

Long hours
Watch-keeping periods of nine hours and longer in coastal waters are not uncommon in the short-sea container trade. Surveys have shown that the attention of the officer of the watch declines rapidly towards the end of a normal watch of four hours.2 So, how can an officer of the watch be vigilant after eight or nine hours, adding that during the last two hours’ sailing upriver dense fog prevailed and the officer had to take care of the VHF traffic for shore radar guidance? Failure will be guaranteed under such circumstances.

Short-sea navigation in confined waters, in adverse weather conditions and dense traffic, with an officer of the watch suffering from fatigue, with no assistance of a lookout, creates the perfect condition for a collision.

Bridge team management
If the different responsibilities are not clearly allocated, members of the bridge team may not take the required action to avoid a collision. The officer of the watch, especially if he has little experience, may assume that the master’s appearance on the bridge automatically passes the responsibility to the master, when in reality the latter only wants to supervise his new officer. If a dangerous situation arises then, perhaps none of the two will take the necessary steps to avoid a collision. The same may occur if the master and the officer of the watch rely on the pilot, without careful observation and evaluation of the pilot’s manoeuvres. The time a pilot boards a ship is not a time for rest – it is a time for increased awareness and vigilance, because pilots may not be fully aware of the manoeuvring characteristics of the ship just boarded.

Paperwork
A lookout is required not only during periods of darkness or reduced visibility, but also during daylight. During night watch, as long as normal visibility prevails, the navigational lights can be made out easily, provided the officer of the watch and the lookout keep a proper watch. Additionally, a proper watch on the radar will assist and alert the officer of the watch in time. During daytime officers of the watch are too often distracted by paperwork, a result of the increasing bureaucracy imposed upon seafarers by various international and national legal requirements.

Proper lookout
Statistics show that the most common causes of collisions are lack of awareness combined with poor watch-keeping practices, i.e., the lack of a proper lookout.
Lack of awareness arises often out of insufficient evaluation of information provided by electronic navigational aids as a result of insufficient qualification and training of those who are assigned as watch-keepers. Complacency adds to it and professional mistakes are the result.

Sterile conditions
An officer keeping the watch in rough weather in a warm, enclosed wheelhouse, sitting in a comfortable armchair in front of his navigation panel, with no or hardly any possibility of opening windows or walking out into the fresh air in the bridge wings will soon fall asleep, especially if his watch-keeping and working hours are excessive. There will be nobody to talk to during his watch if no lookout is posted. Even if a lookout is there, communication may often be difficult despite the requirement of the ISM Code for a common working language – are they proficient enough in the common working language to communicate with each other also on subjects not related to work?

Fatigue and social isolation on board ships with reduced crews combined with lack of motivation

In such “sterile conditions prevailing on many ships, with crews of mixed nationalities often existing in a system of voluntary apartheid”5 it is no wonder that there are other thoughts in the mind of the officer of the watch than the on-coming vessel steering on a course which cries for disaster. If his attention is re-focused, it is often too late for proper evaluation of the electronic navigation instruments. The consequence is a false perception of the other ship’s speed and course and of his own ship’s position.
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Note that most racing sailors and many cruising sailors use 3 hour watch rotations because of the loss of concentration--this is close to the effective concentration time. (If the person is concentrating on the job at hand!.)

I have known a number of recreational sailors who have been lost at sea--presumably when they were asleep. We met one well known French sailor in the Canary Islands, who was single handing his 44 foot sailboat, on his way to Brazil, and then around Cape Horn "wrong way" and up the West coast of the America's. I asked him what he did about night watches. He smiled and said, as any good frenchman would: "I put on my pajamas, and go to sleep. God will take care of me" He didn't make it to Brazil.
 
The official Navy report on the collisions of both the USS Fitzgerald and the USS McCain was released with great detail.

The report is 71 pages in length and goes into most of the factors, although perhaps all not all of the detail. To me, it is frightening, that a US Naval ship did not follow both international rules of Navigation as per COLREGS or Navy protocols. They did not follow the traffic lanes, and minimal basic procedures which we have followed on all of our small vessels and all of our racing boats.

Something as simple as: When we change helms person--the person taking the helm will say "I have the helm", the other person will respond, "You have the helm".

They did not have the prescribed watch standers, There was lack of basic communications between the persons on the bridge and situation room. There were many failures of standing orders.

Well worth a read. There are many lessons for all of us, even with the tragic outcome of these collisions.
 
Same thing about transferring controls in the airlines. You have the airplane, or I have the airplane. Preferable not in the flare... there is a story there. lol. (During very low visibility approaches, it use to be the FO flew the airplane until about 200 feet then if the CA saw the runway environment, he would say "I have it" take the controls and land the airplane. If not, we went around. So we decided to do a practice approach this way during my leg. Weather was high enough for me to land, however in keeping with our policy on doing the approach this way, my thought process was the Captain would take the airplane and land. His thought was this is Colby's leg, he'll land the airplane. Somewhere around 50 feet, just about in the flare, I still haven't heard the Ca say I have it, and I finally ask are you taking it, I don't want to go around. He says, it's your leg, you're doing fine, land. We both laughed a bit. After the flight our FE (Flight Engineer, this was in the old days on a B727) says you guys were joking, right? Uh, no... :mrgreen: (Captain and I had flown together enough to know each other pretty well. FE was rather new, and didn't appreciate our jocularity.... :mrgreen: Colby
 
first a complaint. using a backup computer which keeps erasing what I wrote - and somehow I am doing it and messing it up - relevant to what I have to say below. I am going to post, and then edit - repeatedly. LOL

I read the full report a few days ago. Thataway has nicely summarized it, but I would like to add a few comments. The McCain had a lot on confusing high tech issues with steering and propulsion. Which often is a fatal error for anytime one is boating.

Steering is via a complicated computer, lacking visuals which allow the officer in command and everyone else to know what was going on. Steering was transferred to another person, and then briefly IIRC to an alternate station not in the pilot house. In addition there seemed to be a rudder/steering difficulty which tended to turn the ship 4 degrees to port.

And then compounding the difficulties the starboard engine was not slowed when the command was given to reduce speed and the port engine/screws were slowed, this further caused the McCain to turn portward.

Throughout all of this short tragic episode those in command, at the helm, and controlling the engines did not know what was happening, and more disastrously did not know that they did not know. The McCain proceeded to pass the oiler on the oiler's starboard side, and then continued with the fatal but not aware to anyone aboard port-ward turn into the path of the oiler.

I am led to believe that there is no computer diagram showing the Captain and Executive Officer, the various helmsmen, engine control persons and Combat Control an intuitive diagram of who is controlling what, and from what station (remember the computer briefly transferred steering control out of the pilot house) which turbines are working, which and propeller shafts turning and at what rpms. (turbans may be capable of driving either propeller shaft - I could be wrong on this)
 
I was recently on the USS Wisconsin (now a museum ship, but last used in the
Gulf War). As part of a tour we were taken to the bridge. It as pointed out the there were no controls there for driving the ship, only a number of displays showing the state of things (prop RPMs, course, rudder angle, etc.). Any changes to the speed or direction of the ship had to be given as orders to be carried out by people elsewhere. Apparently there would be a fair number of people hanging about to relay these orders.

So not only was there no direct control of the ship from the bridge, there was also the possibility of miscommunicating the actual order in all the relays.

Seems like a poor way to drive something like a big ship.
 
Back when I was working as a third mate on oil tankers, were coming out of the port of longbeach. The pilot was about to disembark and was telling us his next ship was a Navy destroyer heading into Anaheim.

"Taking a destroyer in and out of port is great. I put one tug forward through the bullnose and one tug aft on the centerline and I use them to counteract everything the bridge team does."

It's never been the Navy's priority to navigate, their priority has been "the mission." The demand for navigational skill in the Navy is derived from the demand of moving a big floating weapon. Because of this it's always been a secondary priority.
 
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