Triton now Northwest Marine Industries?

I owned a 15' West Wight Potter sailboat for 20 years, from 1981 - 2001. One of the reasons I bought it, new from the factory, was their active owners group in the SF Bay Area known as Potter Yachters. This was a wonderful boat!!!!!! Back then Potter Yachter members often helped staff the manufacturer's display at the boat shows. We scheduled our participation and this allowed interested buyers not only the benefit of talking to manufacturer's reps, but also to meeting and hearing of owner's experiences and learning about the club and outings to be enjoyed. In all honesty, this is why I bought the Potter over the other 2 boats I was considering. I was a single dad with a young family and the camaraderie sounded fun - for me and my kids. Club members were full of knowledge and anxious to share it. Members loved participating in the boat shows. It was great fun, but we always followed the guidance provided by the manufacturer as to our proper boundaries.

In addition to this activity, the manufacturer helped sponsor our one annual national regatta. They provided a few trophies and also help with the price of food. Costs were also covered by the club, and registration fees helped as well. The manufacturer sailed one of their boats in the races and interacted with folks just like one of the sailors. It was great fun for all, and seeing all these colorful Potters in one place was quite an attraction.

I believe the active interaction with the owner's group was mutually beneficial. With the boats built in LA, and only a tiny handful of dealers, if a prospective buyer wanted a test ride they could contact our club and there was always someone available to quickly offer a ride. This allowed a hands-on experience that most of the dealers could not.

With subsequent sale of the company more than once, and with the tightening economy, this level of interaction dwindled and I believe disappeared. This has never made much sense to me. The cost output from the company was minimal, other than supporting the annual race. They experienced no cost for members to participate at boat shows and it seemed the owner presence was an attraction to prospective buyers. I think often times the decision makers focus only on the bottom line - how many boats did we sell by the end of the show? In reality, I never buy right at a show and I doubt most people do - this occurs sometime later. I think about the boats, do more research, and then decide. As part of my Potter decision I remembered the owners I had met at the show and how warm and helpful they had been, and I knew that was going to be a fun group to participate with. That finally made my decision and I never regretted it.

Rob
 
I would love to hear from the dealers: Les, Matt, Marc, or others with access to sales and demographic information re: what kinds of boats are selling nowadays. Is it fiberglass, aluminum, fishing, ski, trawlers, pontoon, or something else? I'm aware sales are slower generally than before the credit bubble burst, but there must be some clear trends. Many have compared the CD22 to the old Volkswagen bus, with it's spartan interior and roll-up windows. I personally love that kind of simplicity and economy, but is it possible that most purchasers want something different these days? I'd be curious to hear feedback on this. Thanks, Mike.
 
The past problems of C-dory builder's are many, but mostly center around one subject. The lack of understand the boats themselves and the people that buy most of them. This was the most evident when Les stopped being a dealer and C-dory gave it to Master marine. Master marines clientele and owners are go fast fish hard and get back kinds of guys. Class A, overaggressive, loud music, beer drinking over aged children. These are the guys that pull into the gas pump at Friday harbor in a sea sport blasting van halen on the ten speakers hanging from there radar arch. Or they are guides making a living doing two trips a day. Get out Get back. They are not cruisers or overnighters. They are not trailering to portland , the delta, lake Powell or B.C. and Florida to cruise and some times fish.

It's that lack of understanding the client that has kept the factory owners from embarrassing this site. Now knowing that new owners will be building seasports and that Stan Palmer builds the Parker and Shamrock line of boats , all go fast fishing boats, and now arima, a fishing only boat IMHO, I worry that they will not see the real use and appeal of the c-dory line and try to treat is as a entry level fishing boat, which it can be, and ignore the rest of us.

I know we make the comparison all the time but its a good one. Ranger tug knows their buyers and the use of their boats. And to be clear its not quite the same buyers as c-brats even thu it over laps a lot. Ranger buyers want frills,they want it fancy, they want to cruise and hang out and go shopping in different ports. Ranger knows this and markets to them and design's the boat to that type of person. The Cut water line was designed to the Buyer that wanted all those things but wanted to go a little faster or did not want to imitate a work boat /tug style. the cut water is just about the same as the tug just a different style. I imagine that ranger was losing buyers based only on the looks of the tug and not the purpose of the mission. So they built a different look with the same mission and picked up more buyers.

If you add that to the support and factory participation on the tug nuts web site and you cant go wrong. Host a factory party at the boat show, support the many gatherings, hire someone that understands the purpose of the boat you are selling and don't, as I fear they will, try to re-purpose the boat it fit the enter level of you fishing line. Just my 2 cents as always.
 
Just to clarify-

Palmer owns Defiance- not Parker (although the boats are very similar). Shamrock is out of business. At one time we were a dealer for both Shamrock and Defiance.

Palmer went out of business. A new company, Defiance Boat Works was formed.

Defiance Boat Works (Palmer) is building Defiance, Arima and I have been told Sorenson. They are also dealers for Raider and Starcraft aluminum boats.

Palmer had expressed interest in buying C-Dory back during the Fluid days. Fluid didn't want to sell to Palmer.

We'll see what happens.
 
"hat Stan Palmer builds the Defiance not Parker and Shamrock line of boats , all go fast fishing boats"

I had to laugh about the Parker being a go fast boat since I have one. Fastest Parker I have seen was on I95 going 85
 
One of the "problems" with the C-Dory line is that the quality is maybe too high. From what I've seen these boats have a very long life. This limits the repeat business. It is not uncommon to see 20-30 year old models for sale on this site.

If you look at cars, you buy one, drive it for say 5-10 years, and replace it. After 100-150K miles it often becomes more cost effective to get a new one than keep fixing the old one. Also the technology improves quickly in a car so that after only a few years there are noticeable improvements in newer models over older ones.

This is not generally the case with boats. Due in part to the much lower volume, the rate of tech improvements with the boat itself is much slower. Any electronics improvements can be readily applied without getting a whole new boat (can't really do the same thing with cars). The improvements to boat engines also occur more slowly. An '07 Honda outboard is pretty much identical to a '13 Honda outboard.

So unless I decide I want a different style or size of boat, my C-Dory is going to last longer than I will. There is no real reason to get another one. With my car, once my current one expires, I'll have to replace it (probably in a year or two). And I'm likely to get one of the same brand.

Some other brands of boats (which generally cost noticeably less) are manufactured in much higher numbers and do not last as long as a C-Dory. While the cycle is longer than with cars, there is still the point where it becomes better to buy a new one than fix the old one. A number of buyers will say "I had good luck with the last X-brand boat I bought, I'll get another one."

From the C-Dory manufacturer's viewpoint marketing to the C-Brats is singing to the choir. With the current model line-up there is very little likely return as most of us are all quite happy with what we have. Those that are not satisfied with their C-Dory are likely to get a different brand of boat. The simplicity and robustness of these boats also greatly limits the necessity (and profit) of after sales support and repair. How many of you actually had to contact the boat manufacturer to get something fixed or buy parts after you bought the boat?

The sales volume will probably never allow the manufacturer to build a wide range of models while keeping the attributes that make the C-Dory unique.

The C-Brats gatherings are basically an insider's event. Only people already associated or very interested in the C-Dory are aware that they occur. Most attendees go for the fun, not to buy or sell things. For the manufacturer to justify the expense, there needs to be a fairly easily measured ROI. On step the manufacturer could take is to turn the C-Brats gatherings into marketing events (advertise widely, provide demos, door prizes, seminars, etc.) to attract a wide range of people with the intent of making sales. I think that this would greatly change the flavor of the C-Brats gatherings, probably not for the better.

Rambled a bit, but maybe I made one or two points.
 
C-Dory is a tired old brand that doesn't market or innovate. The main reason they are still around is that most of their competition operates in the same manner. Just think if Ranger Tugs/Cutwater produced a direct competitor to the CD22.
 
Jake":3seqj3bu said:
C-Dory is a tired old brand that doesn't market or innovate. The main reason they are still around is that most of their competition operates in the same manner. Just think if Ranger Tugs/Cutwater produced a direct competitor to the CD22.
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The reason that C Dory is still around is that they are a great boat--but unless you own one, you will not appreciate the features of these fantastic little boats. There have been "improvements" made thru the years. Some are better than others. But they fill a void that no other boat does. If you were to read all of the legal papers it would give a lot of insight into what has gone on in the last 4 years with the C Dory line and why it has not bee free to progress.

Actually the C Dory 25 started (in its current and improved version) in about 2002. The First Tom Cat was in 1999, and the Tom Cat 255 in 2006. In comparison the Ranger 21 (closest Ranger has to C Dory 22 in size) was first designed in the mid to early 90's if my memory is correct--the design has been modified, EC house, firmer buttocks aft, bigger engine.

The Ranger line has been very successful, and a lot of this is due to excellence of build, marketing, managing of finances and customer service, as well as design. There have been other 26 foot "tugs" which failed by other companies along the way.

At some point I'll outline what I glean from the postings of those who did an excellent summary of the legal proceedings, plus reading all of the papers. It is an excellent insight into the business side of building boats, as Les so well points out (by the way--looking at the photos of the panel wring on the boats Les is building is how it should be done!). It also shows how a legal action can be snowed by deeper pockets and requests for paperwork which may not be relevant. It also gives a window into why there have been failures in the last few builders. Lets hope that whatever is going on now works out to a success and allows further innovation and improvement in the boats, which serve us all who are owners, so well!
 
We ordered our 25 at the 2006 Seattle Boat Show. There were several C-Dory owners at the factory display, willing to answer questions from prospective buyers. In fact, while we were trying to decide between the 22 and the 25, Jeff said to us, "Visit with Jim and Laurie over there - they had a 22 and now have a 25."

I had been a moderator on a trimaran forum, and the C-Brats was a perfect fit for us - it was a MAJOR selling point for the C-Dory. Happy owners, talking about the factory support (the factory did service and repair back then, as well as direct sales). Factory people at the boat show, every model of C-Dory on display, and happy interaction between the factory folks, the boat owners, and boat show attendees.

Sound familiar? Things went downhill pretty fast after that: the factory distanced themselves from boat owners; quit doing service and repair. Tom Latham came onboard, and they tried to make C-Dory a mega-mass-produced boat. The economy was showing signs of slowing, but the factory tried to shove inventory down dealers' throats. Lake Union SeaRay became a dealer and had rows of C-Dorys on display so you could pick your color. No more customization of production boats (I had to beg to get the opening for the Wallas moved to the front of the galley counter). They spent big bucks producing a model that answered the question nobody asked (the "Baby Huey" 29). Factory participation on the C-Brats was nonexistant.

Frankly, they had a very viable market for their boats. The different factory entities "lost their way." I've heard that "a victim of their own success" stuff before, but it seems to me that they simply quit listening to the people who wanted to buy their boats (and most certainly, the people who had already bought their boats). No evidence that this conscience decision had changed with any of the subsequent factory entities.

It may be "a niche boat," but it has an enthusiastic following. Show some respect for the the boats and those who own them, and it creates a desire within others to join in that enthusiastic following. Ignore it (and the owners), and you can see how that business decision has played out.

Franky, from my perspective, the different factory entities have pissed away the most valuable asset: enthusiasm for the brand. A complete loss of understanding the lifestyle of those who own these boats.

The inevitable comparison to Ranger Tugs... they have been doing what C-Dory did when I ordered my boat: taking care of customers. Making the same boat? What would it take to improve egronomics in the C-Dory? Offer comfortable seating? Make a "family truckster" model with the convertible dinette, and the couples cruiser with REAL cruising amenities. A fishing machine. The classic interior doesn't have to change much (just like the Ranger Tugs all look pretty much the same), but give enthusiastic owners a reason to upgrade. Help owners who want to upgrade by marketing their used boats.

I can't believe ANY of this doesn't make sense!!?? Tom Latham called me one night when we were at Brent and Dixie's house when he was at the helm of C-Dory. I told him pretty much these same suggestions, and he completely farted me off. Same thing with Frank and the Fluid folks. Same response.

I have no dog in this fight. I have my boat. It is a great boat. It has taken us all over the country (and Canada). We still get people who ask us about the boat... it is a classic. There are people who would buy these boats IF someone would promote the "couple's cruising lifestyle" so they could picture themselves doing the same thing. (See: Ranger Tug's business model yet again... yeah, the one that C-Dory used to embrace before the different factory entities pissed all that away.)

You want to give current owners something to trade up to? Make a 27, an updated, upscale version of Tom and Susan's boat. Put in seating that isn't a board with foam and Sunbrella wrapped around it. Go look at a REAL RV, and see how they place appliances, switches, and conveniences.

I'm done tilting at this windmill. The brand may be too far gone. But, the boats themselves are still VERY special.

Sorry if this rant has been repetitious.

Jim B.
 
C-Dory is far from dead. The name change reflects the change in ownership. The focus on the boats has not changed as far as I know, and I visit the factory regularly and talk to Scott, and I also talked to the Wrights at the SBS. The casualty is likely to be the Skagit Orca, not C-Dory. In this market the factory is building more C-Dorys than anything else.
 
In a way the continued production of the C-Dory through all the turmoil of the last few years is a real testament to the boats themselves. If they were not a good design filling a real niche they'd have disappeared somewhere along the way. Look at all the brand owners who have said this is too good a boat to go away.
 
Jim B. (JamesTXSD), agree with everything you said.

thataway,

I'm certainly a new guy and not familiar with the C-Dory history, a couple of questions:

1. What were the major changes between a 2001 and 2002 CD25?

2. The CD22 appears to be the main seller, when was it designed?

Thanks,

Jake
 
Jake":88p80kov said:
I'm certainly a new guy and not familiar with the C-Dory history
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Well, you've got a month on me (but I did read here for a couple months before joining)

Jake":88p80kov said:
a couple of questions:

1. What were the major changes between a 2001 and 2002 CD25?

2. The CD22 appears to be the main seller, when was it designed?
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You may not mean it this way, but it almost comes across as if you know the answers and are asking to make a point rather than to gather information. Maybe it just reads that way to me because I spent a night in a noisy, crowded, smoky campground and my coffee this morning was tepid :cry

I don't think the CD 25 was being built at all in 2001 or 2002 (post "Cruise ship" and pre-modern 25 I think?) The 22 was designed around 1987 (in its current form).

I'm no "apologist" for C-Dory, and there are a number of things about the build of mine that annoy me (most of which I'm changing, or have already changed; but it would have been easier if I didn't have to), but.... I couldn't find any other boat that would do the same things, for anywhere near the same price, so I bought mine even knowing it was not "perfect." I also chose a relatively "older" model because I prefer some of the "non-changed" features. Of course this does not apply if we are talking solely about those buying new boats (but I wanted to give some context).

Too, I'm one who doesn't like change/innovation just for the sake of being able to say one has changed/innovated. The sort of "All new!!" Last year's models are now obsolete!!" type of feeling. But then too, some changes are improvements. There is nearly always room for improvements in build execution, even given a repeated/older design (maybe especially then, as the builder has time and energy to improve what's there rather than dealing with the all-consuming details of a new design).

I thought Les made some interesting points when he discussed the various "styles" or goals of a given boat builder. i.e. small volume/small profit vs. going for large volume/production style business. Seems that some boats would be more or less suited to either style and many might not be suited to both.
 
Jake":3m0sxe6q said:
Jim B. (JamesTXSD), agree with everything you said.

thataway,

I'm certainly a new guy and not familiar with the C-Dory history, a couple of questions:

1. What were the major changes between a 2001 and 2002 CD25?

2. The CD22 appears to be the main seller, when was it designed?

Thanks,

Jake
Click to expand...
 
Jake":i7chosy3 said:
Jim B. (JamesTXSD), agree with everything you said.

thataway,

I'm certainly a new guy and not familiar with the C-Dory history, a couple of questions:

1. What were the major changes between a 2001 and 2002 CD25?

2. The CD22 appears to be the main seller, when was it designed?

Thanks,

Jake
Click to expand...

There was no 2001 C Dory 25 to my knowledge. The first 25's were in 1994 and continued 1995--maybe 1996. There were few built. The modern 25 was first built on basically the same hull in 2002. The older Cruiser was lower powered and had the head on the opposite side, a larger dinette and different galley. The interior was dark.

The 22 came from the Toland designed semi dory.
From the C Dory History:
The first C-Dory, a 22' X 7'6" "Flat Bottom" was introduced in late 1979 at the Seattle sportsman show. The new boat was a tiny cousin of the Marben semi-displacement hulls being built at the time by Roy Toland Inc. doing business as Marben Marine. The immediate success of C-Dory's original 22' model led to the development of the line into what it is today. Roy Toland Inc soon formed a new corporation around the new boat line, giving it the C-Dory name. Roy Toland Inc. sold it's tooling for and interests in the Marben line to Golden Star Yachts. C-Dory Inc. acquired the the remaining assets of the Marben Company and its name. Marben Marine operates today as a Dealer for all C-Dory Inc.

I first saw a C Dory in 1981 in S. Calif, and this was the first year of mass production and I didn't see an earlier boat on our list.

There are still semi dories custom built, and many of the "kit" builders have semi dory plans for plywood or composite boats. The actual design of the semi dory is very old--probably to the beginning of outboard motors, where a dory was first given a well, then the stern was cut off and then widened. Maybe 80 plus years ago. There has been evolution--the slight reverse chine of the modern 22 and 25 makes a better boat than the plywood flat bottom boats. Cold molding or composite will allow compound curves in the fore foot and more like the modern semi dory.
 
I had to laugh about the Parker being a go fast boat since I have one
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I am confused about this. Every parker I see has twin 150 or a 250 to 300 outboard on the back and they are passing me on the water. over 25 mph is a go fast boat for fishing. The Tomcat 225 is a go fast boat as far as I'm concerned. I have had warrens up to 50mph once.
 
thataway":1eck6lbc said:
The actual design of the semi dory is very old--probably to the beginning of outboard motors, where a dory was first given a well, then the stern was cut off and then widened. Maybe 80 plus years ago.
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Good point about the design history of the semi-dory. In many ways there is nothing new under the sun, or at least you can trace the origins of many designs way back (although of course there are exceptions, and improvements). From the limited amount I know about the "evolved" (in the sense that they were designed later than the C-Dory 22) Cape Cruiser and Marinaut, one of the main changes was to design the after sections to better accommodate today's heavier (and "more) choices in motors. Still, the "dated" 22 seems to afford people an awful lot of fun and adventure and still looks sweet to me. One of the things that attracted me to the group and the boat was that here were people who were actually out "going and doing" with their boats. I just love that!
 
starcrafttom":2xi04r5e said:
I had to laugh about the Parker being a go fast boat since I have one
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I am confused about this. Every parker I see has twin 150 or a 250 to 300 outboard on the back and they are passing me on the water. over 25 mph is a go fast boat for fishing. The Tomcat 225 is a go fast boat as far as I'm concerned. I have had warrens up to 50mph once.
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Oh.... I didnt know the speed limit
sorry
I guess my Parker is one. Last year we had it up to 38 at 5700 rpm and it burns a lot gas at that speed but was fun to open her up

To me a Regulator with triples is a go fast
 
Heck this might even be an ancestor of the C Dory: Circa 1907--just no outboard motors yet! (At least not commercially produced until the next year or two)

CR_Austin_skiff_with_HCA_1907.sized.jpg
 
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