tough economic times
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Alyssa Jean
New member
Someone needs to explain to me why we still have pennies. It costs the government 1.23 cents to make a penny. Of course that is par for the course when the government pays inflated prices for everything else as a matter of course. I wonder what they are paying these days for a $15.00 hammer? $28.00? $36.00?
Ah, Dan, let us not forget Business 101 and Psychology 101. I understand how the international oil business functions. I am speaking of the PERCEPTION the average consumer gets from these 20¢ overnight fluctuations. Tree-huggers and environmentalists aside, we have some pretty major oil waiting to be tapped - I'm all in favor of that. Nuke the spotted owl - what has it done for the economy recently? As long as there is the perception of gouging and run-away prices at the fuel pump, consumers will pull back from buying things that depend on oil (and what doesn't these days?).
A former family member of ours used to work for a fuel distributor... and this place told the gas stations they delivered to what price they would charge... if they want to be able to get more fuel. In my former industry, this would be called collusion and price fixing and would have gotten me in trouble up to my eyebrows. When the media reports the average price of fuel in the US tonight, it's a sure bet that every local station WILL BE at that price in the morning. Fuel taxes vary widely by state - yet prices at the pump really don't vary that much in our travels. Again, PERCEPTION. If you think these things don't affect sales in the industries mentioned above, ask your local small boat dealer how things are right now.
As part of what I did for a living, I gave seminars to professionals around the country on business and image, and how customers perceive a particular business. I'm not debating that it costs more to get fuel to the pump these days; I understand supply and demand; I am saying that American consumers are more affected by perception and pull back their spending... which tanks the economy.
We are probably more aligned on this issue than you might think. Years ago, there used to be a saying: However GM goes, so goes the country. That was back when the US was a manufacturing giant. Now, I believe that oil prices play a much bigger part in consumer confidence. When the media reports record profits in that industry and the guy at the pump has to shell out more when he pays for gas, he KNOWS (or perceives) where that money is going.
When I see gas prices spike up, I know it's time to re-evaluate where i want to put money. Unfortunately, as people curtail their spending, everyone in the discretionary income stuff (like boats, RVs, etc) feels it.
My 2 pesos. Yours today at no charge.
A former family member of ours used to work for a fuel distributor... and this place told the gas stations they delivered to what price they would charge... if they want to be able to get more fuel. In my former industry, this would be called collusion and price fixing and would have gotten me in trouble up to my eyebrows. When the media reports the average price of fuel in the US tonight, it's a sure bet that every local station WILL BE at that price in the morning. Fuel taxes vary widely by state - yet prices at the pump really don't vary that much in our travels. Again, PERCEPTION. If you think these things don't affect sales in the industries mentioned above, ask your local small boat dealer how things are right now.
As part of what I did for a living, I gave seminars to professionals around the country on business and image, and how customers perceive a particular business. I'm not debating that it costs more to get fuel to the pump these days; I understand supply and demand; I am saying that American consumers are more affected by perception and pull back their spending... which tanks the economy.
We are probably more aligned on this issue than you might think. Years ago, there used to be a saying: However GM goes, so goes the country. That was back when the US was a manufacturing giant. Now, I believe that oil prices play a much bigger part in consumer confidence. When the media reports record profits in that industry and the guy at the pump has to shell out more when he pays for gas, he KNOWS (or perceives) where that money is going.
When I see gas prices spike up, I know it's time to re-evaluate where i want to put money. Unfortunately, as people curtail their spending, everyone in the discretionary income stuff (like boats, RVs, etc) feels it.
My 2 pesos. Yours today at no charge.
terraplane
New member
I'm not too savvy when it comes to $$$..rarely does my checkbook balance...i get close though.
So:
l. Keep up the support of the C Dory brand...for me it has been a good boat, dependable, safe, and fun. Yes, we find lots of glitches in specific boats , on this site, but overall, hundreds of C Dorys are out there, performing well. I think the factory, the dealers, and the consumer are all in the same boat.
2.Reconize that the economy has always had ups and down..Hunker down, go 8 knots, save you change in a "gas" jar.
3.Keep up the exchanges on this site..I swear, except for lovelife advice, you can get everything else solved here!
4.(this one is more personal) We all have our political leanings...for me, i'd prefer less politics in some of our exchanges. Both of our parties need a wake up call on all issues.
terraplane
So:
l. Keep up the support of the C Dory brand...for me it has been a good boat, dependable, safe, and fun. Yes, we find lots of glitches in specific boats , on this site, but overall, hundreds of C Dorys are out there, performing well. I think the factory, the dealers, and the consumer are all in the same boat.
2.Reconize that the economy has always had ups and down..Hunker down, go 8 knots, save you change in a "gas" jar.
3.Keep up the exchanges on this site..I swear, except for lovelife advice, you can get everything else solved here!
4.(this one is more personal) We all have our political leanings...for me, i'd prefer less politics in some of our exchanges. Both of our parties need a wake up call on all issues.
terraplane
Jeff Brigner
New member
JamesTXSD":15rug936 said:
Here Here :beer :beer :thup :thup I like you Jim !!! Thanks. You make me want to go out and kiss my boat. That is just what I needed this morning :smiled
Your too cool !
dogon dory
New member
Censored due to lack of entertainment value.... :sad
flapbreaker
New member
I'm not an expert on oil prices but it seems to me that prices are driven by the people buying oil futures. But I don't know how it works. I do find it interesting that when an oil rig looses a bearing that the gasoline that's already in a tanker truck on it's way to the filling station all of a sudden somehow cost more to make.
Warren, 3.78 liters a US gallon, 4 liters an Imperial Gallon (Canada and UK) Incidently Mexico's Pemex is not at all effeciently run. Its proven reserves have fallen as has production. Despite being a quasi government entity, it is heavy taxed--and these taxes produce about 30% of the Mexican's government National budget; it is anything but subsidized.
An interesting prospective on oil prices: http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm
Here is a break down of what constitutes the "costs" of a gallon of gas in California as of Feb 18, 2008: at $3.19 a gallon
Crude oil cost $2.25
Refinery Costs and profits: 25 cents
Distribution, marketing and profits: 8 cents
State underground tank storage fee: 1 cent
State and local sales tax: 24 cents
State excise tax: 18 cents
Federal excise tax 18 cents
There are a number of factors which "control" oil prices, including OPEC, demand, taxes Governments regulations and supply. Gas is still relitatively cheap--remember that $5000 boat in 1962 now costs $10,000. So 25 cent gas (1962) should be $5.00 a gallon! The problem is that there is a finite amount of oil. The easy to acquire and refine has been tapped and is deminishing. Exon is not replacing its reserves in the last year as it had in the past. Some of the oil companies are looking at alternative energy (BP). I agree with Dan, we have neglected Nuculear power. As China and India (and eventually Africa) become "modernized" the demand for petrolium based products and fuels will increase. We have just seen the beginning of the rise. Now when gas is $10 a gallon...that will have a greater impact, but maybe we will have enough inflation to make that "affordiable"--except for those of us who are retired...
An interesting prospective on oil prices: http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm
Here is a break down of what constitutes the "costs" of a gallon of gas in California as of Feb 18, 2008: at $3.19 a gallon
Crude oil cost $2.25
Refinery Costs and profits: 25 cents
Distribution, marketing and profits: 8 cents
State underground tank storage fee: 1 cent
State and local sales tax: 24 cents
State excise tax: 18 cents
Federal excise tax 18 cents
There are a number of factors which "control" oil prices, including OPEC, demand, taxes Governments regulations and supply. Gas is still relitatively cheap--remember that $5000 boat in 1962 now costs $10,000. So 25 cent gas (1962) should be $5.00 a gallon! The problem is that there is a finite amount of oil. The easy to acquire and refine has been tapped and is deminishing. Exon is not replacing its reserves in the last year as it had in the past. Some of the oil companies are looking at alternative energy (BP). I agree with Dan, we have neglected Nuculear power. As China and India (and eventually Africa) become "modernized" the demand for petrolium based products and fuels will increase. We have just seen the beginning of the rise. Now when gas is $10 a gallon...that will have a greater impact, but maybe we will have enough inflation to make that "affordiable"--except for those of us who are retired...
RJD Wannabe
New member
I must respectfully say those figures don't fit reality, as expressed in annual figures. Exxon, as just one example: 2007 $40.6B profits on $377.6 B sales, is 10.8% NET profit. Somewhere they make almost 11 cents pure profit on every dollar of sales, not just a few pennies on each gallon. So not much sympathy from me, rather I have oil company stocks in my 401k. I just don't buy that they only make a few cents on each gallon. My other answer is my Prius. And will be my C-Dory. I'm all for efficiency
Interesting discussion,
The diesel fuel in Mexico may not be the same as what is sold at highway gas stations in the USA. We require a ultra low sulphur diesel, does Mexico?
Gasoline is not sold based on the cost to produce the gas in the tanker truck, it is priced on the cost to replace that load of fuel with the next one.
For those of us who do not own an export company, a farm growing export crops, or own stock in those companies, the devaluation of our currency costs us directly. Gas, food grown and transported, fiberglass, computers, TV sets, and anything else imported costs more.
The government inflation figures do not include food and fuel. How do the government numbers help us? Unemployment numbers only count those currently receiving unemployment insurance, not the total number of people who are out of work and looking for a job.
If you loose your job or house your personal unemployment or foreclosure rate is 100%. It doesn't help to know that the total numbers are very low.
My three cents! (Inflation)
The diesel fuel in Mexico may not be the same as what is sold at highway gas stations in the USA. We require a ultra low sulphur diesel, does Mexico?
Gasoline is not sold based on the cost to produce the gas in the tanker truck, it is priced on the cost to replace that load of fuel with the next one.
For those of us who do not own an export company, a farm growing export crops, or own stock in those companies, the devaluation of our currency costs us directly. Gas, food grown and transported, fiberglass, computers, TV sets, and anything else imported costs more.
The government inflation figures do not include food and fuel. How do the government numbers help us? Unemployment numbers only count those currently receiving unemployment insurance, not the total number of people who are out of work and looking for a job.
If you loose your job or house your personal unemployment or foreclosure rate is 100%. It doesn't help to know that the total numbers are very low.
My three cents! (Inflation)
I'm not sure how this fits in this discussion but Dr. Bob referenced 1962. In that year I was a young professional with two degrees, married with one child. I made $ 4800 per year and my wife, Dotty, was a stay-at-home mom. Our rent was $89 per month. In 1966 we bought our first house for $17,000 with $500 down and a VA mortgage. Sold it when we retired in 2002 for $235,000. We had no boat, but we did buy a brand new Dodge Valiant in '66 for $1400. Tempus do fugit.
dogon dory
New member
Factual content censored due to lack of entertainment value... :sad
dogon dory
New member
Now that' truly disgusting :amgry . Ya'll are just mean spirited, selfish human beings. 1400% profit :smileo We're ready to string company's up for making 11% profit. Why couldn't you just settle for 10% and give the next buyer a break??? If I were you I'd delete that post, barricade your doors, and hope the mob doesn't show up with the tar and feathers.dotnmarty":14vtf39r said:
That's just not right :cry
passed censorship screening process due to (marginally) entertaining sarcastic content
RJD Wannabe
New member
You are right, it is disgusting, our addiction has "fueled" this mess. We have allowed ourselves to be gouged. That's why efficiency is so big to me.
I'll stop, don't want to derail this thread too much, that's why I don't want a "gas hog" boat. I'll put my $$ elsewhere. I don't need a 250+ HP Nissan Altima, or a 70 mph fishing boat. But the choice of a 22 Angler or a 24 TomCat will be the challenge. And something to tow it (bring on the smaller diesels!!)
This is one of those discussions with so many facets and interrelationships that it is possible to discuss all kinds facts and opinions and at the same time find it hard to integrate them all into a understanding of the whole.
I can't or at least won't try to attempt that here.
What I will do is point out how America's position has changed in a developing world economy.
No longer are we in a position of world economic domination with the ability to force outcomes as we set fit with much of the rest of the world.
The position we enjoyed following WWII and into the 1970's or so has been replaced with one of our declining influence and control, as the rest of the world catches up industrially, and grows toward our standard of living.
Some of the previously non-industrialized countries of the world like China, Korea, Indonesia, Taiwan, India, Mexico, and the like have come on board as producers instead of just suppliers of raw materials.
We buy goods from these countries because they can produce them for less, and then export dollars in turn to the tune of a trade deficit of 6 billion dollars a year.
Manufacturing jobs in the U.S. disappear as a result, as does the buying power and the standard of living of those workers and the rest of us. Even service jobs go overseas through the cyberspace links.
The United States must adjust to a more restrained, less dominant role in the New World Economy. We can still for the time being be the major player, but our portion will be less, and there will have to be economic and standard of living adjustments made at home.
Our perception of ourselves will have to adjust accordingly. We can't think of ourselves as being entitled to whatever portion of the world's wealth we want.
We'll also have to stop trying to be the policeman to the rest of the world. We've done this largely for our own economic interests since WWII, justifying it in on moral grounds, but now we're finding that it is too expensive and doesn't usually work anyway.
It's a smaller America we're going to have to learn to live with, but one that is no less great and one in which we can be no less proud.
We can find some solace in the fact that some of the rest of the people of the world are having a better life, more like ours.
ON EDIT: The irony of all of this is that we used to spend a lot of time saying we were working to help the undeveloped countries of the world become modernized/industrialized (we really gave them foreign aid to help our own business, economic, and military interests), and now that some of them have become industrialized, they are fierce competitors with us in a world economy!
*****************************
One point of view, not the whole explanation, just part of the picture.
The above discussion is worth-
A. 0 cents
B. 1 cent
C. 2 cents
D. 3 cents
E. 5 cents but no cigar, it's an inflated world.
Joe. :teeth :thup
I can't or at least won't try to attempt that here.
What I will do is point out how America's position has changed in a developing world economy.
No longer are we in a position of world economic domination with the ability to force outcomes as we set fit with much of the rest of the world.
The position we enjoyed following WWII and into the 1970's or so has been replaced with one of our declining influence and control, as the rest of the world catches up industrially, and grows toward our standard of living.
Some of the previously non-industrialized countries of the world like China, Korea, Indonesia, Taiwan, India, Mexico, and the like have come on board as producers instead of just suppliers of raw materials.
We buy goods from these countries because they can produce them for less, and then export dollars in turn to the tune of a trade deficit of 6 billion dollars a year.
Manufacturing jobs in the U.S. disappear as a result, as does the buying power and the standard of living of those workers and the rest of us. Even service jobs go overseas through the cyberspace links.
The United States must adjust to a more restrained, less dominant role in the New World Economy. We can still for the time being be the major player, but our portion will be less, and there will have to be economic and standard of living adjustments made at home.
Our perception of ourselves will have to adjust accordingly. We can't think of ourselves as being entitled to whatever portion of the world's wealth we want.
We'll also have to stop trying to be the policeman to the rest of the world. We've done this largely for our own economic interests since WWII, justifying it in on moral grounds, but now we're finding that it is too expensive and doesn't usually work anyway.
It's a smaller America we're going to have to learn to live with, but one that is no less great and one in which we can be no less proud.
We can find some solace in the fact that some of the rest of the people of the world are having a better life, more like ours.
ON EDIT: The irony of all of this is that we used to spend a lot of time saying we were working to help the undeveloped countries of the world become modernized/industrialized (we really gave them foreign aid to help our own business, economic, and military interests), and now that some of them have become industrialized, they are fierce competitors with us in a world economy!
*****************************
One point of view, not the whole explanation, just part of the picture.
The above discussion is worth-
A. 0 cents
B. 1 cent
C. 2 cents
D. 3 cents
E. 5 cents but no cigar, it's an inflated world.
Joe. :teeth :thup
According to an online inflation calculator (Google search), $1.00 in 1962 was equivalent to $5.98 in 2002.
A $17,000 house (not counting interest paid)in 1962, adjusted for inflation, was equivalent to a $101,690 house in 2002. Profit was then $235,000-$101,690= $133,310 divided by 40 =$3333 per year=.033 = 3.3% per year.
A savings account would have done better!
A $17,000 house (not counting interest paid)in 1962, adjusted for inflation, was equivalent to a $101,690 house in 2002. Profit was then $235,000-$101,690= $133,310 divided by 40 =$3333 per year=.033 = 3.3% per year.
A savings account would have done better!
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