tough economic times

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williamsburg

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I see that PDQ Yachts, which makes that excellent 34 power catamaran, has filed for bankruptcy. In addition, Albin Marine, which makes 20'-35' cruisers, has gone out of business. I am sure that it is a rough time for the makers of mid-range boats with talk of recession and $100 per barrel oil. l would guess we will see a number of failures in the near future.
 
ok, what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. so, with that in mind, perhaps the boat building industry needs to re-think the building process and make their asking price more in line with other industries. i know, most of you guys are pumped up on the c-dory, but lets call it what it is, an cheaply built boat that sells for a lot of money. how is it that toyota or honda sells cars in a down market, could it be, maybe value for the money. my ford f-350 has never been parked indoors, yet it has zero rust! hell, my c-dory or for that matter my trophy can't sit in the water without getting blisters. what's up with that! look, all companies have overhead, thats part of the game, produce a mediocre product and sooner or later nobody is going to be pulling out their hard earned bucks and forking it over. so, it would seem to me, build a quality product, do so at a competitive price and orders will come, up or down market. how can a 25' boat command $100,000. or more. $100,000. that's a lot of money, try, maybe four vehicles, 2/3rds of a house, early retirement and so on. well, i'm rambling on so you get my drift.
then on the other hand, what the hell do i know!
best regards all,
pat
 
Actually PDQ is has been picked up by Pearson Composites. Pearson is one of the most respected names in boating, and has survived multiple recessions. They are molding boats again. I don't know all of the facts about the Canadian PDQ failures, but certainly the Canadian dollar strength had an effect.


Yes, Albin is closed--but have been closed for some time. I have heard that the molds are still at the factory--and I expect at some point that they will be built again...

I am not sure I agree with Capt Patrick. Yes, have been some quality control issues--but all in all the boats are still excellent values. One has to undersand the nature of inflation. It is not 1-2% a year--it runs between 5 to 10% a year if you take the over all costs. With the increased costs of materials it may be at the higher end for some time--even with a recession.

If you don't want to pay for a new boat--buy a used one--they hold their value--in fact the minimal changes, along with durability keeps many of the boats selling decades later for what they cost new (dis-regarding for inflation)-C Dories hold their value better than the majority of boats.-
 
hi dr. bob,
i agree in principle to everything you've said and without compromising my position relative to the overall cost of boats, in general.
i will submit that if you were building boats rather than practicing medicine, the boats built by you would be of better quality and produced at a more favorable cost than those being produce today. today, being a relative term, meaning within the past ten years. you exhibit passion, attention to detail and general good will to all. i'm not building boats so i don't have answers on cost cutting measures, but if i were, i think i'd look for a better and more cost effective distribution system, greater advertising, order direct, ship direct, or something creative.
check out the titan motorcycle company. what a fantastic bike, a work of art, problem was priced way to high, so no sales and now out of business. take the $28,000. to $35,000. price tag, two wheels, one engine and little comfort. for the same money one could purchased a very nice vehicle, having 4 wheels, one engine and a much comfort.
i believe, you, would have found a way to stay afloat and at the same time, make money. maybe it's a combination of builders and dealers, all expecting greater compensation than their product is worthy of.
like i said before, i just don't see the value when compared to what the same money can purchase elsewhere.
but, always enjoy the spirited conversations.
that's my story, as confused as it may seem.
best regards
pat
 
Fiberglass boats are built of resin, which is a petrochemical product, right? Thus boat prices track the cost of oil. Oil has increased by a factor of 20 since the 60's. And I assume boats also have. A $100,000 25' boat (motors and trailer?) would have been $5,000 by the foregoing thesis. I bought a new 22' sailboat in the 70's, after the oil price increase for $5000, which isn't far off.

Based on my past experience with fiberglass boats and Journey On , the C-25 is well built. The factory has some production line issues, which they seem to be dealing with. Bobs transom has been upgraded, my anchor locker leak doesn't seem to be happening, and of course there's the case of Fishtales, which we can only hope is isolated.

Boris
 
Really tough times, 4.8 unemployment, highest number of home owners in history, average pay is up , foreclosures are ( are you ready.... 1.5% nationally) lower than 5 years ago. More millionaires then ever (not one yet) 52 months of job growth etc.... Yeah it’s just horrid out there.

but certainly the Canadian dollar strength had an effect
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This is something that most people don’t get. Having the biggest dollar is not always a good thing. Canadian exports most of its goods and having a strong dollar or loony does not always help. Why by Canadian when it’s just as cheap here. The Seattle time had a story a few weeks ago lout lining how the weak dollar is helping the state. Seams the Canadians are spending their money here instead of at home. Also Washington state farmers are getting more, twice as much, this year for their wheat because of the demand by countries that can now afford it. Cheaper with the weak dollar then other places. I also detailed how the port is doing a lot more with all the outgoing cargo to other countries that can now afford our products. Not enough news on this in the press.
 
Thomas: I agree with the overall tone of your post, esp. the beginning part. Even in the areas of our nation that are being hit the worst by the mortgage crisis, we're not talking about the prospect of starvation, widespread lack of basic medical care, roving rebel death squads, etc. I suspect that many people around the world would LOVE to swap our "tough economic times" for theirs. Oh, BTW, C-Dory's are cool too! Mike.
 
using simular logic, for me, gas is cheaper today, than it was in 1968, when i was a 18 and paid .25 cents per gallon. that amount represented 22% on my hourly wage.
todays cost per gallon only represents 5% or less, of my hour wage. i guess i'm better off than i had thought. while gas is more important to me today than it was in the 1960's, but cost, per unit is far less, then i suppose it would be true to say that i am getting greater value for my money.
if the market goes up or down, either way, will not effect my standard of living. so, i don't see it as bad times, or for that matter good times. my thoughts are regarding the high cost of boats, relative to other items, such as housing, vehicles, tuition, and on and on. there's got to be something i'm missing. even with increasing cost of fiberglass, just how much fiberglass is there? cars have steel, rubber, plastic and yet it would seem one gets far more product, thus value, than with a boat.
well guys, i'm tire, it's been along day. i think i'll turn off the open sign and call it a day.
have a great evening, remember, life's to short to drink cheap wine.
best regards
pat
 
I don't understand why we keep comparing the boat industry to the auto industry. I'm guessing if we stick a Toyota in salt water, there's going to be a problem! :twisted: A successful boat builder may build a couple hundred of a given model in a year, the auto makers consider a run of 90,000 or more a good model run in a year - there is a certain economy of scale involved here. Also, a good portion of today's cars are robotically assembled - you certainly can't do that with boats that are pretty much laid up by hand (although a molded interior or liner does help that building cost).

Sorry, Patrick, not trying to be contrary here. Having owned other boats, I think our C-Dorys stand up well in comparison. If you want to compare the boat industry with another transportation industry, my take is to do the comparison with general aviation. Why would someone pay almost a quarter of a million dollars for a vibrating 4 seat aircraft, built with engines that have had little advancement in several decades? The fact is, most general aviation manufacturers of 30 years ago are mere shadows of their former stature.

If you can find a boat built as well as a C-Dory, with similar features, and at a more affordable price, please share that with us. I researched the market for quite a while before plunking down my hard earned bucks... and I didn't buy one for the name, but for the functionality and durability.

I was sorry to see PDQ not able to make it (but glad others have picked up their molds and will continue to make the boats)... but if a builder is only making a few boats per month, a down year will quickly run them out of cash to keep things going. It's easy to say, "Make fewer boats and make them better." Nice premise... how few should any manufacturer make? Just enough to stay in business? So, sell one less boat, and then what?

My guess is that no one at C-Dory is getting rich. The fact that they stand behind their warranty claims (even if it takes a while to get through the process - and they could certainly improve in that area), should tell you about their commitment to producing these boats. They tried increasing production, making molded interiors, and eliminating factory direct service... all as cost-cutting/efficiency procedures. And the C-Dory faithful screamed.

Frankly, I want to see C-Dory weather this tough economic time. In a selfish way, it is good for me - I have my boat; I'd like the resale value to hold up (in case my non-existant grandchild wants to sell it after I will it to him/her :wink: )

The real kick in the guts in all this is the price of gas. In our area, it went up 15¢ overnight. Because the price per barrel went up??? They were able to get it from the oil wells to the pumps in less than 8 hours??? Give me a damn break! :amgry This affects the cost of resin, fiberglass, getting anything shipped to you; and moreover, scares the hell out of the average consumer. People want a car that will get 50 mpg... how do you think the uninitiated potential boat buyer is going to feel about a vessel that gets only 4 mpg??? :shock: Sure, by comparison, our boats are more economical than most powerboats... but non-boating folks nearly wet themselves when they find out how much fuel boats use.

And that uncertainty over future fuel prices absolutely affects our economy. This is a lot more than: build a good boat and they will buy it. This army of C-Dory faithful here is the best thing that the factory has going for it when times are tough... we talk about how we use our boats, the fun we have, and the adventures we share. They have to do more than build a good boat - they have to SELL some. We can talk about the economy not being that bad, but you'll have a hard time convincing the car manufacturers, boat makers, RV manufacturers, and the general aviation industry - numbers are down across the board in all those industries (yes, there are occasional bright spots from individual manufacturers - the exception, not the rule). All fuel using products.

It will be interesting to find out from Warren what the price of diesel was in Mexico (Pemex is government controlled {monopoly of sorts} down there, much like our utilities in this country. Think it costs them less to pull it out of the ground than here? Most of us can afford the price of fuel... where the problem lies for the potential new boat buyer is the uncertainty: "Can I afford to buy a 50 - 60 - or 100 thousand dollar boat and still have enough left over to run it?" The answer is likely yes if they could PLAN for those costs. And that is a real psychological barrier to purchases in the industries mentioned above.

OK, I'll get off my soapbox now. I'm actually in a really good mood, 'cause we were out in our boat today!

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
The most recent Mexican fuel price I can easily find is about $2.50 a gallon on 1 Feb 2008--not a lot less than the US. In the past we paid very low prices for Mexican diesel- ($.14 when the US diesel was $1.00 a gallon)

We paid $5000 for a 25 foot one year old boat in 1961 which has about the same amount of room in the cabin as the C Dory 25. This bears out the 20 fold postulated by Boris

Patrick, I did build boats, at night, while I still had my day job. We made a very good profit--both on the boat and selling the molds after building. But we purchased molds and materials in a recession when boat builders were going under.

As for the Canadian dollar--lets say the PDQ was built in Canada for $300,000 when the US dollar was 1 dollar to .75 Canadian dollars. Now that the Canadian dollare is equal to one US dollar, the Canadian built boat now has to be sold for a little over $523,000 US dollars. This is a huge increase of "cost" to the US dollar, due to the exchange ratio alone. Adding to this is the cost of materials. (These prices are only for example and not accurate, nor is the exchange ratio precise).

As for the "recession" and millionaires. The government reported unemployment rate is way lower than reality because of the way it is calculated. Yes, we are a very wealthy nation, and in general far better off than we have ever been in our history. But... In reality there is a huge debt which has been accrued by the American populice. People have been using their homes as ATM's by refinancing and drawing out equity. That equity has now fallen. Many people are upside down in their loans, but not yet forclosed. My son lives in Orange Co. Calif, and in his specific area houses are down 20% and not selling at all. I don't know what the over all forclosure rate will be--but it is hiigher than in the past. We had the pleasure of spending several weeks in Cleveland OH--and went by thousands of forclosed homes in that city. Tell those folks that there is no recession. Where I live currently there are people begging for any type of work in the general forums--Construction has ground to a halt. Then look at credit card dept--which is at an all time high, and when a payment is missed, then rates are raised and rapidly the available line of credit is contracted--often severely. All of this decreases discressionary spending--often on toys such as boat purchases.
 
Wild Blue Said:
Frankly, I want to see C-Dory weather this tough economic time. In a selfish way, it is good for me - I have my boat; I'd like the resale value to hold up (in case my non-existant grandchild wants to sell it after I will it to him/her )
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Jim,
Don't forget your buddies...just in case that grandchild doesn't appear in time....I still have room for one more boat at the dock....and if it gets to tight, I would give ole Jim (Duck) his eviction notice to make room for "Wild Blue"....then I could have a totally "Blue" Fleet.
 
JamesTXSD":2j6019xa said:
It will be interesting to find out from Warren what the price of diesel was in Mexico (Pemex is government controlled {monopoly of sorts}
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It's approximately $2 a gallon! A little over 500 pesos to put in 20-25 gallons. I will look for the price per liter next time I fill. What is the conversion factor to get from liters to gallons?

Warren
 
Jim and Bob nailed it for me . I look at trailers every day that costs 1/2 as much an an economy car . Its hard to fathom . We have 19 foot boat packages that sell for the same $ as a new Mercedes. If anybody thinks boat dealers or manufacturers are getting rich , they are kidding themselves . You boat because you love it and you should build them and or sell them because you love it .The ones that dont understand this will be the ones that go away first.But you have to pay the bills.And we all want the right to make a decent living and to enjoy our recreation in our own chosen way.
Marc
 
Papillon":id1exvwi said:
Wild Blue Said:
Frankly, I want to see C-Dory weather this tough economic time. In a selfish way, it is good for me - I have my boat; I'd like the resale value to hold up (in case my non-existant grandchild wants to sell it after I will it to him/her )
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Jim,
Don't forget your buddies...just in case that grandchild doesn't appear in time....I still have room for one more boat at the dock....and if it gets to tight, I would give ole Jim (Duck) his eviction notice to make room for "Wild Blue"....then I could have a totally "Blue" Fleet.
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Just to be sure I understand this, Mike, ol' buddy... are you saying you want me to will the boat to you? Or, if things get "too tight", (as in: I have to sell the house and all my belongings to afford to boat), that you will toss Duck out of there and let us live at your dock? :wink:

And to Warren's reply: living close to the Mexican border, I've been hearing diesel is around $2/gal there - just wanted some confirmation. That's $1.40 or so LESS per gallon than it's going for here, just across the border. That's pretty significant. Of course, the "big oil" guys in their black hats have enough $$$ to keep us from ever seeing government price controls on that industry.

<<climbing back on my soapbox>>

Look at the economic slowdowns over the past 35 years - you will see a rapid increase in fuel cost preceeds the economy tanking. Oil prices go up 20%, the general population screams, the economy tanks, prices go back down 5%, and the population seems to think this is OK. They still raised their prices 15%, based on a "perception" and we swallow it. I've seen all the "but see what they're paying in Europe" arguments, but a great portion of that is government taxes. We are paying over50% more than our neighbor to the south... and our economy tanks as a result. Now, I'm certainly not the rabble-rouser type, but I'm about ready to pound my back-up danforth anchor into a sword (I'm too fond of my Delta to mess it up) and lead the charge for realistic fuel prices... and prosecuting the blatant price-fixing perpetrators in that industry. Think this doesn't relate to our C-Dory stuff here? I've seen all the "I will run slower... stay in one place longer... not boat as often" posts here recently. And we're the smart ones who already own one of these boats!

It will cost me $15 more to fill my boat's tank tomorrow than it did yesterday. Is that enough to make me stop (or even slow down) my boating addiction? Not a chance! Does it piss me off? Yeah, that's $15 leaving my pocket for no good reason. Since I don't own oil stock, there is no extra value for my spent money. This has nothing to do with the housing/mortgage "crisis", but everybody I know complains about the rising cost of gas. It's a PERCEPTION. "Oh my goodness, we're going to have less money to spend on other stuff because we have to pay more for gas! We have to stop buying ____________ " (fill in your choice of consumer item). And, not long after, the economy tanks. And people perceive that they can't afford to buy that boat they've thought about.

I don't think of this situation as "the rich getting richer, and the poor..."; if you are on this site, you have the means to own a computer and probably a nice boat. We KNOW the value of our boats. But to the guy who hasn't bought his first boat, yet, the economic downturn will make them think twice before they plunk down the money for a boat. I feel for C-Dory and the dealers - they have an uphill fight in a tough economy. Hang in there, guys - and I'll do my part by telling everyone who will listen that my boat is way cheaper than therapy and a BOAT-LOAD more fun than any old econobox that gets 40 mpg. :wink:
 
Marooned":3bqpqwno said:
I'm just afraid that the collapse of "America's Industrial might", has only just begun.
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Perhaps that torch has been passed to the "Creative Class". You might also want to take a look at Richard Florida's "...Creative Class" books, the most recent of which is...(drumroll)..."The Flight of the Creative Class. The New Global Competition for Talent".
 
You might also want to take a look at Richard Florida's "...Creative Class" books, the most recent of which is...(drumroll)..."The Flight of the Creative Class.
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I am not saying that innovation is dead, on the contrary I now have the Cdory that I wanted for years, I didn't get it by "not using my talents".

If the creative class exists, it is because somewhere someone is using or buying the creation. Someone is laboring to produce it or sell it.

It would be nice if we could all become wealthy, but reality is, there are many millions of Americans that labor for their livelihood and live paycheck to paycheck. Maybe they need to lose their job, so they can get a Cdory.
 
Wild Blue Said:
Just to be sure I understand this, Mike, ol' buddy... are you saying you want me to will the boat to you? Or, if things get "too tight", (as in: I have to sell the house and all my belongings to afford to boat), that you will toss Duck out of there and let us live at your dock?
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Jim, you pretty well nailed it on the first thought but if the second thought should come to pass...haven forbid, I would just have to build a finger dock for the duck so we could keep the "Blue Fleet" in a straight line.
 
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