tomcat as a first boat???

N

nuccifilms

New member
i've been doing weekend fishing charters in southern CA for some time (traveling from vegas) dreaming of the day of running back and forth with my own trailered boat. i'm in love with the c-dory, especially the tomcat. my cost in gas of a 3/4 towing a big boat to CA round trip i believe is roughly same cost as our current monthly charters cost (me and wife $300). as wonderful on the water as the tomcat is, how critical would be in downsizing to a 22'? ultimately i plan to relocate to san diego in 2-3 years, where the bigger tomcat would be more a no-brainer. i'd hate having to sell a boat in a few years, because i'm sure i'll be upgrading and re-investing all the while i own the smaller boat. does anyone have experience trailering a tomcat 700 miles roundtrip once a month? keep in mind also that i'm completely new to trailering, let alone a 255. other options, 1) dry dock in CA, 2) dealing with overcrowded charters i've been doing another 2-3 years, 3) getting a 19' - 22' cruiser for a few years for it's easier and cheaper trailability?
 
Rick,
Welcome aboard!

For a number of years, we kept our "West Coast" C Dory at a friend's place in Las Vegas, along with a 1 ton van. In our case it was a c Dory22 and 25. However I owned a Tom Cat 255 which kept in at our home in Fl. I have been back and forth between S. Cal. and Vegas, many times starting when I was a kid.

The biggest issue of towing, is that you do have to deal with the Cajon Pass (Summit), and the Baker Grade. The Tom Cat on the trailer is going to be 10,000 lbs--give or take. I think a couple have been in the 9 thousands, and some closer to 11,000 on the trailer. If you have the truck (diesel) and electric over hydraulic brakes--should be good to go. (3/4 ton is OK)

You know about the traffic on I 15...

My first choice would be to get the Tom Cat to start with. Then decide if you want to keep it in Calif (pay taxes there--both sales, and personal property). If you keep the boat out of state (California) for a year after purchase then I believe you will not owe the sales tax. (has been both 6 months and a year--not certain what it is now) Still get hit with the personal property tax if you leave the boat stored in Calif. Not that much, but all of those taxes is one of the reasons I left Calif. 25 years ago!

Another reason to keep the boat in Vegas, is that you are less than a day's drive to Powell (shorter distance than San Diego)--which is one of our favorite places--and it has some great bass fishing.

If you buy a 22 used now, and sell it in several years, chances are you will not loose much money....But the Tom Cat is a lot more boat!
 
I've had a couple of 22 foot boats, one power and one sail. When we got our Tomcat Merry and I agreed we wanted a boat that we wouldn't sell in a few years and move up to something better.
I would suggest keeping your in a slip close to your fishing grounds. We have ours less than ten minutes from home and if the SoCal weather would ever cooperate again we would be back to using the boat 2-3 times per week.
If you are used to weekend trips it beats towing the boat and dealing with the usual sorted idiots at the boat launches.
Bob is correct about the taxes here. After putting Jerry Brown back in office they've come up with many new ways to pick your wallet.
 
thanks so much for your replies. i believe this dilemma is one that is easily understood by the people in this club. however, i'm not understanding all the facets? if i buy the tomcat (from a state other than CA) have it delivered and registered in NV and only then trailer it and store it in san diego (dry storage) you mean i will have to pay CA tax for a NV registered boat?

i've been doing one weekend a month chartered fishing trip to in CA from vegas. (round trip in gas by car $60 and fishing charter for two $300) so pulling $360 i'm already spending out of the equation, (how much more) financially would my monthly expense be with roundtrip F350 and tomcat in tow to the west coast?

the days and times i leave on the I-15, i don't see much traffic, but i imagine my 4.5 hr trip each way by car would be probably be more like 6 hrs each way in tow? i'm really not considering a slip, in that the monthly slip expense for the 3 days a month i'd use the boat wouldn't be cost effective. plus the added bottom maintenance. driving my truck past the 2 mountain passes to then hitch my boat at closer to sea level would seem far better.

again, this is all speculation, as i explore the other options as well. please, ALL continue to advise, based on what you've read.
 
we love the salt air and the deep sea game fish. the little distance savings of heading up north to lake powell doesn't quite do it for either of us. if that were the case, i'd be driving 45 minutes away to a boat and slip waiting for me in lake mead every weekend. (although, there seems to be less of lake mead every year, as the water demands keep rising)
 
$360 once a month... that won't make a tiny dent in cost of boat ownership. While the pride of boat ownership and the satisfaction of running your own boat is "priceless," the numbers don't come close to what you are currently spending.

If your plan is to fish once a month, you have to take into account the amortized cost of the boat. $70k and up for a used TomCat.

An F350 towing a TomCat is likely going to get 9 to 11 miles per gallon. No idea how far offshore you plan to run, but at speed, the TomCat will be getting around 2 miles per gallon. Wear and tear on the truck and trailer, especially considering crossing a couple mountain passes each trip... tires, brakes, increased oil changes, maintenance on the boat (check out what a 100 hour service costs on an outboard... times 2). Maintenance on the trailer (bearings, brakes, tires). If you are handy and can do much of this yourself, you will save a lot of bucks... and put in a lot of time.

Boat stuff: anything "marine" is more expensive than the equivalent land based items. And, when you own a boat, there is ALWAYS boat stuff to buy that you didn't even know you needed.

If you haven't owned a boat before, you will need education: boating safety classes, as a start. Experience, again, is priceless. A charter captain will know where to go, and how best to evaluate the conditions. How to get you out of trouble if the conditions or situation deteriorates.

Once you own a boat, your life will change. People either get it or they don't. Those who don't will generally sell the boat when they realize the time and money investment necessary. Those who do get it will justify the cost: It's my hobby; It's cheaper than therapy... other parts of your former life will be less important: yard work is seriously over-rated, anyway; the kids don't really need a college education. Work will become that thing you have to do in order to escape for a while on the boat. In time, you will start wondering, "If I do fishing charters on my own boat, I can recoup some of the costs"... and then the costs will REALLY skyrocket.

This is a slippery slope, my friend. And so worth it for some of us. And a real "Gotcha!" for others. A good charter captain will make it seem easy. It isn't. Just understand that owning a boat is not as simple as buying a boat. Running a boat is nothing like driving a car/truck. Towing a boat is 10X more effort than just jumping in a car and driving away.

If you can store the boat in your driveway or on your property, that will save you storage fees. Store the boat in California, and the tax people will find you. Yes, even though you have the boat registered in NV, if you leave it in another state for a period of time, that state is going to want their share of the taxes (personal property tax, sales tax, state registration, etc)... on the boat and trailer.

If you are spending only $360 per month for a charter, you are getting off easy on expenses. A boat and trailer will be depreciating every day, just sitting there. And if you are one of those that "get it," your mind will soon start calculating... let's see, that trip I just took cost me more in gas than what I used to spend to charter... and, I have this HUGE depreciating asset just sitting there, costing me money... I think what I need to do is obvious: I need to do more boat trips to spread out the cost!! :twisted:

Good luck with the decisons. Your life may never be the same.
 
My experience with the C Dory 25: I had purchased the boat in New Jersey and taken it to my home in Florida. I kept there for about 8 months, thinking I was clear of sales tax in Calif. But the law had been changed from a year out to state to 6 months out of state, after I bought the boat--so Calif. said I fell under the old law of a year. Got you! Fortunately the Franchise Tax Board accepted the price I paid because the boat was damaged.

I put the boat in dry storage in San Juan Capistrano, near where my son lives. The boat was federally documented. Every storage lot, marina etc has to report every boat to the county tax office. The date is Jan 1, 12:01AM, for boats Based in Calif. (even though you remove the boat on Dec 30, and return it on Jan 2, it is still taxed, if it is "based" there more than 6 months a year. I got a bill at my home in Florida based a value of $60,000. Remember the boat is documented with hailing port of Pensacola, FL. I protested that, and submitted that Franchise Tax Board had accepted my cost of $30,000. DENIED: The Orange Co. Tax collector said that most C Dory 25's of my vintage sold for $60,000, and since I had "fixed the damage" it was worth that.

An aside: I had purchased a 62 footer and took delivery offshore of Calif. The boat was then docked in Mexico for 6 months, before I brought her to Calif. for outfitting before we went cruising for 4 years. She was documented out of Mississippi. Almost immediately when we returned to Calif. I was hit with a tax bill of over $30,000. (Sales tax, property tax, and penalties). I was only able to get those canceled, after a notarized statement from the Yacht broker, copies of the slip rent in Mexico, a copy of my entire ship's log, and copies of every page of our passports for 4 years) Your boat remains on the Calif. tax roles when cruising, unless you establish a "permanent" moorage port outside of California!

(An aside, I as charged a tax on the land under my slip in Long Beach, even though that marina was owned by the city of Long Beach!--as well as paying $16 a foot a month for the lease fee).

Yes, the slip fees and maybe even dry storage may cost more than driving to and from Las Vegas. With a Tom Cat, probably the mileage will be 10 mpg, or less for the diesel truck.

As for Powell, vs Mead--no comparison--Powell is a far better place and I have boated on both a number of times. I had not looked at it as a "savings" going to Powell, but an additional place to boat and fish.

Will you catch as many fish with your own boat as on a charter boat? I don't know. but you have to ask that question. There are hidden costs of boat ownership--if you pay cash, the loss of that $80,000 to $150,000 of your money working for you ( at 5% to 7%), of you borrow the money--the interest you pay. The cost of fuel, at 2 miles per gallon or less (the Tom Cat is economical for the size of boat--most will be 1.5 miles per gallon.

The costs of engine maintenance, (oil, lube, impeller changes, wash and wax after each use, repair of things that break, etc.) When you eventually put the boat in the water there are the slip fees, diver fee for cleaning the bottom, bottom paint (with epoxy barrier coat). All of these are "cost of ownership".

Even if you "move" to San Diego, you may want to keep residence in Nevada, and stay there one day more than 6 months out of the year for income tax, car tax, Personal Property Tax, insurance etc...I am sure you know people who do that...

My experience is from having living and boated in S. Cal about 50 years, but when retiring in 1992, the first thing I did was to establish residency out of Calif.
 
It's a great boat, but you should drive and charter twice a month instead of once a month as that would cost half as much in the long run. Show your wife I wrote this, I've been trailer-boating for over 45 years, my TC255 is boat #13.
It's just too big of an investment when all is said and done, to only be enjoyed one weekend a month (less with weather and stuff that life dishes out).
I agree with James, except that towing this is 11 times more stressful, not 10 times. From front bumper to rear engine cowling I'm 57 feet...4 feet longer than the max semi trailer. No trailer tires are rated over 65mph, I go 60-62MPH max getting no better than 12 MPH (13 at 55MPH) in a HD2500 deisel that is a true embarrassment to park at Wal-Mart. In perfect conditions, which happens in 1 trip out of 20, the boat gets 1.9-2.1MPH and it's got to be ethanol-free marina gas at $4.99/gal, holds 150gal. Plus Yamalube Ring Free at $48/qt. In this class boat, the more frequently used the better...otherwise will rust out before it wears out.
You can not justify this on a cost-benefit basis.
However, you can now justify 2 charter trips per month, so you're golden!
Happy Chartering!
John
 
One thing to consider is that it does take a year or two to get your boat exactly the way you like it. Would be a shame to have to start all over.
 
of course i do realize i'll be spending WAY more than the $360 once a month charter. (i was deducting that amount over my future projected cost of ownership boat) yes, having a trip every 2 weeks would make life and the cost spread much more bearable. i am an all out mechanic, that can do %100 of any maintenance and mods with great expertise. and that is no small consideration in boat ownership.

of the points that i've really gotten from the feedback, as one mentioned is "the stress of trailering" i'm 51 and am looking forward to 20 years of semi-retirement. and naturally, i'm talking to some 70 year old guys who are seeing it's time to sell their c-dorys. i don't expect to be making a run to CA with a tomcat when i'm 70. but not even factoring the cost of gas, i don't even like the thought of doing it now. can someone tell me how much easier a time i might have with a 22' on vegas to CA run? i mean stresswise, is it a world of difference? or is it not much, and might as well get what you want , when you take the plunge?

the shoulder to shoulder overbooked charters has their drawbacke, as does the prospect of spending 2 years perfecting my 22', only to sell it for a more liveaboard tomcat when i'm in CA and spending WAY more time on it. oh yeah, i have 3 houses in LV, and i only plan on selling 2 of them when i make my move to CA. i already got that NV residence plan, but thanks. you all been immensely helpful.
 
other big question. i have a good friend in san diego. so let's say i go for my big beautiful tomcat, and relocate it from vegas to dry storing at his place, that's 20 miles from the marina. with it fully tarped on the side of his house, and he's certainly not doing any reporting. now, where's the risk of the state knowing it's in CA, and not being trailered from my NV residence?
 
nuccifilms":zbs3hjfv said:
other big question. i have a good friend in san diego. so let's say i go for my big beautiful tomcat, and relocate it from vegas to dry storing at his place, that's 20 miles from the marina. with it fully tarped on the side of his house, and he's certainly not doing any reporting. now, where's the risk of the state knowing it's in CA, and not being trailered from my NV residence?
Click to expand...

Where we have lived, the county tax assessors do go by every residence at some point... with photos of the previous visit, to see if there are any obvious changes. If there is something big that looks "taxable" by the house, they will note it. You may be paying your friend for the increase in his tax bill.

As far as a 22 being less stress than towing a TomCat - sure. But that is a measure of degrees, and will still be more effort/stress than driving just a car or truck. That is simply a part of trailer boating. When you read: "I don't even know it's back there..." well, I tend to think that means: you need to pay more attention to what's back there! :wink:

I don't think anyone here is trying to talk you out of this, rather just pointing out some things based on years of experience. Answers here were provided based on the information you gave. Buying a boat for a once a month weekend fishing trip will simply not be any kind of savings vs chartering, especially with something that is off-shore capable. Now, if you have a mad passion to own a boat, a TomCat is a very capable, yet still trailerable boat.

I suggest you check with US Sailing and Power Squadron or US Coast Guard Aux in your area to see what boater safety (and intro) classes are available. Go into this with as much information and education possible.

There is a lot of good information on all things C-Dory here. Spend some time looking through the forums. Plenty of folks here with experience regarding any questions you might have.
 
I certainly agree with all posted above. If the boat is at a private residence, and you can keep it stored there--it is far less likely to be on the country tax assessor's radar. However, I'll have to admit I paid taxes on boats in my garage--but I had the registration address as my home--plus these were smaller boats than the boats kept in the marinas.

As for the "stress of a 22" vs a 25 and TC 255. There certainly is a difference. I have pulled both a 22 and 25 behind a 42 foot RV (total length between 70 and 75 feet, but when I got to Calif. I had to use the truck to tow the boats, because of Calif. being very strict with the length at 65 feet. One of the reasons we own a 22 now is the ease of towing. What is this thing about 70? I am 80 and I know 87 year olds who are still towing boats this size.

It looks as if you have things well thought out. I would suggest you get a ride in both a 22 and 255 and see what the difference is. (I'll bet you will go with the 255!)
 
i LOVE the 255, no question!! if a 10 year old model comes around at a great price. . . . let's just say i'll alter my life around that. that being said, i think the 22' for the next 4-5 years is the clear winner. 1st thing is i feel the 22' is comparable to any 25' cruiser, only smaller footprint on land. 2nd, easy to find one at a good price. 3rd, with all the TLC and upgrades i give it, i should have my initial investment back with some lucky person a few years down the road. plus, getting used to something a little easier to manage for a few years, seems like a nice bridge to the 255 anyway. after hearing how stringent the CA laws are on dry storage loopholes, i've resigned to towing. having my boat home to tinker every night will make it all work out.

the one thing someone could answer is, could i consider a non-diesel F250 for a 22'? or a V10? or what of the newer F150s with 12K towing capacity? because as the plan now, by the time i have a 255, i'll be in a slip.
 
Ummm... about that "the 22 is comparable to any 25, only a smaller footprint on land" thing.

Nope. With the exception of the V-berth area, the 25 Cruiser and the 255 TomCat are very similar in cabin size. Both are significantly larger than a 22. The 25 is more than a ton heavier than the 22; bigger cockpit, but not as high to the coaming since the 25 has the 100 gallon fuel tank under the cockpit floor. Wider and longer. More storage. More elbow room, even though they look somewhat similar on a floorplan drawing. AND (many people mistakenly think this is the only difference) - that enclosed head with a shower. Most 25s have a fridge and a 30 amp electrical system. Hot and cold pressure water. The 25 will handle rough water with less fuss than a 22 (weight and waterline matter).

I would suggest you plan ahead for the truck. While you may at this point be thinking a TomCat will be living in a marina, you may discover that a trailer is a great accessory... not just for moving it to other great waters, but also for doing maintenance. MUCH easier to change oil, plugs, impellers, lower unit lube, etc, etc, etc on land. Way less expensive for a haul-out, even if you can find a boatyard that will allow you to do your own maintenance.
 
We tow our 22 with a GMC Yukon XL (4x4, but rarely use the 4x4). I recently towed my son's 25 C dory over the Grapevine with that truck, but the transmission temp went up, and we waited for awhile for it to cool down. (With synthetic fluid no harm done, but I chanced it out when returning home). With a supplemental transmission cooler it would have been 'OK". My son purchased a 2014 Tundra 1794 and it does well. (rated to 9,100#).

You can tow a C Dory 22 with a smaller vehicle than a 1/2 ton, but I feel that the bigger the vehicle, the better. Most of the 22's come in somewhere between 4500 and 5000 lbs on the trailer. The 25's tend to come in at 6,500 minimum on up to 8,500 lbs--depends on trailer, fuel and water, gear etc. Tom Cats 9,500 to 11,000. There is quite a spread. When you look at the "capacity" of the 1/2 ton's also note that they are running low ratio rear ends (not so good fuel economy)-(I get 20 to 22 on the freeway with my GMC). Also adding 4 x 4, the extended cabs, etc. all reduce the towing capacity, and carrying capacity of the truck.

If you were only taking a Tom Cat out of the water and a fairly level drive a short distance to a house for maintenance, then a 1/2 ton with high rating would do. But, I would not take it over some of the manor Western Grades--and I would have electric over hydraulic brakes.

I would stick with what truck you are comfortable with now as long as it has decent capacity for the 22 (if that is what you decide on). But look at the 25's also. I know of a number of instances where a 22 was purchased, and a few months later the person upgraded to a 25...
 
i wasn't very clear on my comparison i was making. i wasn't comparing a cd-doty 22' to it's bigger 25 cruiser. what i really meant to say was, in terms of comfort, the c-dory 22', i feel is the equivalent to your other 25s' trophys, seaswirls and parkers etc. and of course, every design also has it's trade-offs. but in my case, i don't need to rip fast through rough water. i just need to enjoy myself and feel comfortable on my little nest on the water. and enjoy the economy of 1 outboard for now. also, i'm most likely going to still go diesel on a 22'. because any bit of towing overkill can only aid in longevity.
 
Rick,
I think you're asking all the right questions and considerations and getting great input from the group. We all understand the ultimate expense of "2 ft itis cost me $100,000 more than if I had just bought the right boat the first time."
The 'stress' of towing has little or nothing to do with age...it's all the idiots on the road who have never trailered anything and assume your rig's stopping distance is the same as their car. You'll get cut off, have totally oblivious drivers texting while merging with what they assume might be a Prius....I've had to run more than a few off the end of the merging lane while leaning on the horn while the left lane of an Interstate was occupied. I just retired at 62, but had more stress at 51 trailering a Regal 2665, also 18,000# total rig, but without EOH brakes and smart brake controller. The truck does all the work, you just sit in comfort. A new great trailer runs $10,000.
There are also a lot of in-experienced boaters on the water, but it's much easier to stay well out of their way.
You have a truck and mechanical expertise...once you decide a TC255 is right for you, be prepared to fly out with a cashiers check to meet your owner and Surveyor for a sea trial, or you'll miss out.
Happy Shopping!
John
 
nuccifilms":oucfb9bu said:
i've been doing weekend fishing charters in southern CA for some time (traveling from vegas) dreaming of the day of running back and forth with my own trailered boat. i'm in love with the c-dory, especially the tomcat. my cost in gas of a 3/4 towing a big boat to CA round trip i believe is roughly same cost as our current monthly charters cost (me and wife $300). as wonderful on the water as the tomcat is, how critical would be in downsizing to a 22'? ultimately i plan to relocate to san diego in 2-3 years, where the bigger tomcat would be more a no-brainer. i'd hate having to sell a boat in a few years, because i'm sure i'll be upgrading and re-investing all the while i own the smaller boat. does anyone have experience trailering a tomcat 700 miles roundtrip once a month? keep in mind also that i'm completely new to trailering, let alone a 255. other options, 1) dry dock in CA, 2) dealing with overcrowded charters i've been doing another 2-3 years, 3) getting a 19' - 22' cruiser for a few years for it's easier and cheaper trailability?
Click to expand...

I just went through a similar thought process...over here on the East coast we have the option of storing boats on a trailer. Not sure if it works for you, but that a) cost the cost storage by about 1/3, b) decreases the need for a bigger truck. Basically all it has to do is pull it 100' to the ramp and back.

That said I'm bumping up the F150 to a Tundra (mainly because I may tow across FL), bought a new trailer dual brakes.

Can't answer the question on the 22' but I can say I jumped from 17 to 27 and the difference is huge, that said my fishing season expanded and my ability for extra "adventures" expanded.

I'll be trailering a similar sized rig shortly and will advise...If it's anything like my experience in the water is slow will be good. Like docking a boat I suspect the main issue will be in the parking - not the moving.

The only advice I might give is that owning a boat is like having a girlfriend, if you neglect her she'll let you know about it - probably at the worst time. Treat her right and she'll treat you right; treat her wrong and you'll be hating life.

Oh yeah...and bring your wallet. The more stuff on the boat the more stuff will go wrong - simple = good.
 
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