To Fridge or not to Fridge - that is the question

How flexible are the solar panels these days? Could they be put over
the dink when it is on top.

OTOH, does it even matter? Most times when the dink is on the roof,
the engine is running.

Mmmm...might have to revisit the whole fridge/cooler thing. Need to
change out one of the grp 24 bats for a pair of either grp 27 or 31.
At least phase one of the system is in place: the AC charger.

Mike
 
There is another option for those of you that do not want to spend 400 to 600 dollars for a frig.

This Igloo 12v cooler


or this Coleman 12v cooler


Both run on 110v or 12v

I have used the Igloo 12v cooler for more than 15 years. It is not the same as a real refer but will keep things cool/cold. They run all the time and will cool things down 40 degrees below the ambient temperature. It will not make ice but I fill a few baggies with ice cubes and it helps bring the inside temperature down in hot weather (over 85 degrees) and I have ice for my beverages. The ice cubes have lasted for five days for me.

I have one group 29 house battery. However, I have not tested it to see how long the battery would last with it on. Theoretically, it should last about 24 hours. I generally run my generator after 12 hours, if the engine has not been started.

They are insulated OK and when used as a cooler with the door opening up, it keeps things cold overnight without running, but you may loose your ice cubes.

Either one can be bought at WalMart for 80 to 90 dollars.

________
Dave dlt.gif
 
Dene":1rgngwax said:
Old Growth,

How noisy are these 12V coolers?

-Greg
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Greg – can't tell you about the Coleman, but the Igloo is very quite. I often have to put my hand by the fan and feel for air to tell if it is running . If it is very quite out and you are trying to sleep, you may be able to hear the fan. I would think the Coleman would also be just as quite seeing as it operates on the same principal.
________
Dave dlt.gif
 
Wayne McCown":380k119s said:
The thermocoolers are NOT as energy-efficient as the 12v refers. My (older) unit will deplete a 24 group battery in less than 8 hours.
Click to expand...

We certainly found this to be the case with one we tried on our sailboat (a couple years ago). Besides the large power draw, the fan was noisy and it gave off heat. On a hot day, it would only cool to the 50s. Last year, we did buy a small one (holds a six pack of soda and a few snacks) to use in the truck when we are towing... convenient, eliminates the ice hunt for a cooler, but we unplug it when the truck isn't running. If we pull into a campground for the night, we run a separate extension cord and leave it in the cockpit.
 
Has anyone ever considered propane? :shock: We've been using propane appliances in our galleys for over 30 years and love them. :lips As long as the basic safety and operational rules are observed they are Great! :thup And, you never have to worry about dead batteries while your sitting there eating an ice-cream sandwich 50 miles from no where. :wink
Jack
 
Jack-

I agree with you regarding the great utility of propane, and have both a Cozy Cabin by Force 10 heater and a three burner Wedgewood stove in my boat.

However, the refrigerator burner in an RV is positioned in a cabinet ventilated to the outside of the RV body, to vent any escaping propane. Placing a propane refrigerator down inside an enclosed hull or especially a cabin is generally considered too dangerous.

Propane tanks in a boat must be placed in a airtight locker ventilated (drained, really) to the outside of the hull to prevent electrical spark ignition and provide overboard drain.

If you have a propane appliance on your boat, standard protocol calls for a propane detector and a carbon monoxide detector on board. Usually the propane detector is linked to the tank with an automatic shut-off valve.

I certainly agree that a 3-way propane/12-v electric/120-vac electric refrigerator on a boat would be a great solution to the energy/battery problems usually encountered, but generally speaking, it's considered too dangerous.

Most people don't fully understand how propane explosions/fires occur.

This is direct from the MSDS on propane.

What usually happens with a propane leak leading to an explosion is that the leak gradually fills up the area until it reaches its "ignition concentration", which for propane, I believe it is about 3-5% (meaning that 3 to 5% of the "air" in a given space is gaseous propane.

At ignition, it becomes a fuel/air explosion, there is a concussion blast, then flame effects.

Where the violence and trauma come in is when propane explodes, its expansion rate is 270 times the initial volume of the fuel/air mix... So if you have a cube (room) that is 10x10x10 feet it is actually a 1,000 cubic feet and it reaches ignition point, its going to try to instantaneously expand to 270,000 cubic feet, or 270 times original size and it is so fast that anything the pressure wave hits in its path its like having a solid object hitting it...


At lower than ignition concentration percentages, there is usually a flash fire followed by secondary fires lit from the flash fire.

Regarding propane tanks in already burning fires:

"DANGER! Fires impinging (direct flame) on the outside surface of unprotected pressure storage vessels of Propane can be very dangerous. Direct flame exposure on the container wall can cause an explosion by BLEVE (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion). This is a catastrophic failure of the vessel releasing the contents into a massive fireball and explosion. The resulting fire and explosion can result in severe equipment damage (meaning fire trucks!) and personnel injury or death over a large area around the vessel. For massive fires in large areas, use unmanned hose holder or monitor nozzels; if this is not possible, withdraw from the area and allow fire to burn."

So I guess if you have a fire in your marina, stay away from the burning boats with propane tanks!

Joe. :thup :teeth
 
In my experience with propane refrigerators in RV's I've learned they must be pretty level to operate properly. This might be and issue with a boat not to mention the open flame. I think it was Norcold that recently had a recall on many of their propane refrigerators due to a fire hazard.
 
I believe that the Norcold propane refer recall was a circut board over heating--not the actual propane. Dometic also has a recall. These things happen.

I have seen several boats (all bigger than the C Dories) which have the LP refigerator, even sailboats, but to operate under sail it has to be gimbled. Actually the propane will work OK on a power boat, because the motion "equals out"--you are trying to avoid a vapor lock in the amonia gas. Constant motion, even if the boat is not exactly level is effective in doing this. The venting is the problem. The boats I have seen with LP ref have them above the main deck--and vent to the side decks. These are diesel boats (but could gas engineed). There is the lower vent for air intake and an upper vent for the combustion products and heat to escape. A fan will make this type of refigerator more effecient. These are very ineffecient on 12 volts, because you are just running a heater. Although you could run them when under way on 12 volts, you still have the ventillation problem when at rest. I just don't see the cabin being high enough--even in the Tom Cat, to allow effective ventillation of the propane heater in the refigerator.

Bob Austin
 
Folks around here use propane all of the time without incident for heating and cooking. There is the scented olfactory warning element too for any accumulation of gas (smells like rotten eggs). Sniff, consider , ventilate, fan if necessary and you are okay. But DO stick your nose into the area and smell. My $18 Coleman stove works great and screwed to a 12 X12" board is quite stable. C.W.
 
I have a dometic refer on my cape cruiser besides the rotary switch inside the refridge is there another way to shut it off besides turning the battery switch off . I have 2 series 24 batteries don't know the amp hrs Im away from the boat for the next week or so. I was thinking of putting in solar collectors which i have on the cd-22 Duck never a battery problem with that boat . So my question is will those series 24 be ok for overnights with the cc-23 or will I have to break down and buy some 29or 31 batteries whats your opinions thanks also what about solar best places to buy etc.
 
My understanding of the regs are that a sealed propane locker is required with a vent overboard. Anything going into the cabin has to be on a solenoid valve that is turned off when not in use.

Copper tubing is illegal - that is a bit bizarre to me - talked to a guy last year who had a fire and had just, due to the regs, replaced all if his copper tubing (illegal) with rubber hose (legal). Guess which burns better? Fortunately, his boat was not damaged much. He has had a propane fridge for years (~35 Tollycraft) which makes the solenoid valve pretty much useless - it has to be on all the time - but he is legal. I was under the impression that propane fridges had to be level too, but I guess they do work on boats at least for one person.

For us, we have the propane locker - I had to make it since I couldn't find one with 4 hoses out - with a drain overboard. This runs the heat (forced air), stove, hot water, and grill. The only propane hose that goes inside the cabin is for the stove, so the switch is only on when cooking. We do have a sensor that detects gases that are hazardous to your health (ie. CO, propane)and gases than can cause the boat to blow up (ie. gasoline, propane, etc). It doesn't do anything other than make a really really loud noise.

It is surprising to me that I haven't notice these detectors on more boats. I commented to someone about his last year when I noticed his and he said he got religion after a couple of friends died on their boat due to CO poisoning.

We have a fridge and a freezer (dometic). We also have a 180 watt solar panel which can keep up when sunny but not so well at night. Generally, we set the freezer as low as it will go when the engine is running, a reasonable temp when the solar panels are active (~15 deg) and then turn it off once the solar panels stop generating because we do not have the battery capacity to run it all night. We often have to idle the engine before bed to make all this work, although that is dependent on day length, clouds, and over night temp (sunny 20 hour days and all this works just fine). The freezer temp generally rises 5 to 10 degrees over night (just added some insulation - have to see if there is any improvement).

Personally, I cannot imagine going back to buying ice all the time.

John
 
Some one on the site uses a top loader Engel Freezer under the pilot seat on a 19 or 22. Lift the pilot seat on a hinge to access the freezer through an opening cut in the seat base. If I recall the discussion the freezer is used for blue ice or frozen bottled water which is exchanged with same in the cooler as needed. Eliminates running for ice and you can keep a large cooler cold this way for an extended period. You can turn off the freezer at night or when not running as things will stay frozen....and if it is only ice there is no issue if it does thaw. One could freeze some food items as well. Just another approach that may work well for some. I am thinking about it. It might have been Greg on Ari/Aurelia so one could check the album and see if there are photos there.
 
I have the NorCold AC/DC fridge. It only gets used on overnight trips. When not on shore power it runs ok on a Group 27 house battery (with the house loads). When the boat it cruising there is plenty of power. When we anchor out we run the boat motor for about 20 minutes to charge the battery some before bed. We don't have solar power.
 
We are not using the specific "Engle" brand, but a 50 Liter "Dometic", plus a 65 liter" Whynot", which has two independent ref/freezer zones in a single box. (we run one at 0 degrees and the other at 34 degrees. These work fine. We had a Norcold on the Tom Cat which was on a platform which pulled out from under the forward seat. Arrangement works well. A Group 31 battery works for 24 hours for one of the units. It takes a lot more than 20 to 30 minutes to recharge the 60 amp draw however.

Engle is still using the swing motor which Norcold used to use. My impression is that the Danfoss compressor is better and has better longevity. But I don't have any proof of that...
 
We use the smallest Engel MD14F freezer model for freezing 15 Fiji brand squarish pint bottles. They all fit perfectly in the unit and it keeps them solidly frozen in trade for amps. We put 1-3 (depending on outside temps or desired cooling speed)of the bottles in each of our Coleman 40qt cooler seats in the cockpit and swap them out each day for fresh frozen bottles in the freezer. The extra bottles serve as a frozen base to speed the freezing of thawed bottles and we have also had friends running out of ice take a few for their needs as well and because they are just water bottles, we don't need to worry about getting them back.

The space under the seat is not perfectly vented, so the unit runs a little extra in warm weather but it still has no trouble freezing the bottles. The extra power draw is why we put the solar panels on the roof. That modest 50 watts of solar covers roughly half the power required by the freezer and was well worth it. I even built an additional, portable 100 watt extension to use for trips in warmer weather and no shore power plus low levels of boat running time.

Our Lake Roosevelt time plays out like that.

We love the freezer after a couple of years use and would not go back to coolers and loose ice.

http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_ ... _album.php

Greg
 
I added vents for the area behind the fridge and a thermostatically controlled muffin fan. The fan runs then the temp in the compartment is >90 deg.
 
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