St Pierre v Carolina dory

E

ENEVER

New member
Hi All I would like to build a 27ft carolina dory or a 32ft ST Pierre dory.
How would the flat bottom St Pierre handle big choppy sea conditions at say 7kts, would it pound badly due to the flat bottom? And does anyone know if it would be posible to build it with a box keel to take a diesel shaft drive.Thanks I would appreciate any feed back.
 
Gavin, You may well be aware of this information, but in case you are not , it is a good resource.

David Roberts is a wooden boat designer and builder near where I live in Washington State. He has designed a 27 foot St. Pierre Dory that has an outboard well. There is a link on his web site www.nexusmarine.com to one that was built in New Zealand. She is named Beatrice, and there is a large photo essay on her build and launch. She is a beauty.
David is a very knowledgeable fellow and has been very willing to talk with me over the phone and at his shop about his designs and builds. I owned a 16 foot San Juan Dory (his design) that was built in California, and he was extremely helpful with questions that I had concerning the boat.

I am sure that he would be willing to email, or talk on the phone about your questions about the two designs.

Hope this was helpful to you.

Robbi
 
Hi I'm not a naval architect, but I did run a carolina dory for 17 years.
For a flat bottomed boat they are quite seaworthy,due to their decent freeboard and sensible beam,relative to their length.
Mine would plane to 20 knots but you have to slow down to displacement speeds in a chop.
It was a version of the original, drawn by John Gardner, (who was a naval architect).I mention this because individual designs vary enormously within a hull type.

The St. Pierre dory design,which I was looking at before I built the Carolina,is a very different boat, having an extremely narrow bottom.
However this narrow beam/length ratio limited them to true displacement speeds
The originals had a reputation for being able to survive very bad weather conditions.
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It looks like the Nexus Marine version that Robbi mentions is an improvement /evolution with a somewhat wider bottom to allow closer to semi displacement speeds.

In my experience, the feature of the'' outboard motor in a well'' should be avoided. In the words of Phil Bolger, (another naval architect),- ''they have all the disadvantages of an inboard, all the disadvantages of an outboard and a few special ones all of their own''.
I rebuilt the back end of my carolina dory after persevering with the well for too many years. The outboard now hangs happily on the new transom,where God meant it to be!
Improvements are: better turning circle,improved bouyancy at the stern,more room in the boat, less noise & less exhaust smell.

Having said all that, have you looked at the C -Dories? I know they're not wooden boats,but- I'm loving mine! And you don't have to build them!!

Dunkley on Retriever

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There is a lot of difference between a Carolina Dory and St. Pierre Dory. The Carolina Skiff/Dory is similar to the original C Dory,is a semi dory, and can be planed--does have a bit more rocker, and some other differences--and is different than the modern C Dory. The St. Pierre Dory is closer to a classic Banks Dory (I owned a banks type dory, just rowing--never corrupted with an out board--and I could row it at about 4 knots plus for several hours at a time) The true dory is very seaworthy--but in a chop it can pound. The more weight in a true dory, the better it handles--they are designed for fishing and nesting on the deck of the fishing banks schooners...Several have been rowed across the Atlantic.

If you put a box keel, then you have a "Sea bright skiff" (or a corruption there of--since the original Sea Bright or Jersey Skiffs were different and were sailed thru the surf).

Another book to consult is David Gerr's "Nature of boats" where he discusses the various hull types. Since you are looking at two entirely different type of boats you need to do more research--and even ride in the various types of boats to see what suits you better. If I was going to try and cross the Atlantic in a Dory type of boat--then the St. Pierre might be one I would consider. If I wanted to fish and run up and down coasts, I C W and lakes, then the Carolina Skiff/dory.

Good luck with your projects--any of these can be built in stitch and glue with epoxy and will be great boats. Remember that the hull is only a small fraction of the cost of a boat--and prime boat lumber/plywood is not cheap!

There are many corruptions of the dory design--some better than others. Even the Bartender has its origins in the Semi Dory design.
 
Thanks for all the feedback it is really appreciated. This is all totally new to me this kind of boating. I live on a remote island in the Gulf of Carpenteria in Australia, so getting any info is extremly dificult. Here it is all fast planning hulls nothing does less than 20kts but I am tired of being bashed about in planning hulls.
What I am really looking for is a boat that I can build using plate Aluminium that is why I have been looking at the ply wood designs. Something around the 27ft mark, 7 to 8kt cruise would be fine and something that has good sea keeping ability that has a reasonably shallow draft of around 1 1/2ft, between 400mm to 600mm.
Lastly I would like to power this with nothing more than a 50hp diesel inboard.
Would appreciate any ideas or sugestions thanks again for the feedback so far.
 
There have been some beach launching dories with inboard diesels made (there is a universal joint on the shaft, and the entire shaft, long etc can be pulled up into a well--combined with an outboard rudder, this can get down to the very shoal draft category.

I have sailed some distances in a 55' box keel boat--not a dory however. There were advantages, such as engine, batteries, generator, water and fuel tank all in the box keel. There is also some advantage in the box keel, in that it increases stability, and even gives some increase in efficiency, if done properly. Of course this can be done in plate, as well as plywood.

However consider that if you tired of getting beat up--that a true dory is not all that stable--they are subject to a moderate amount of role--as is any displacement vessel.

Certainly one of the design forums might give you an answer--but there will be multiple prejudices toward a certain type of hull.

For rough water, I would consider a displacement/semi displacement cats. You can run on a single engine--and if done properly this size or slightly longer cat can give you an excellent ride, and exceptional economy. One of my friends built a 32 foot cat M & M design---wave piercing (in really rough stuff) which was light weight. He could drive the boat at 12 knots with a 15 hp outboard. One of my neighbors has been experimenting with 16 foot cats, and he is driving them at 4 - 6 mph with modified trolling motors.

For where you are, and what you want, I would be considering a lightweight, semi displacement cat, powered by a single diesel--not all that hard to do--and it would achieve all of your goals.
 
Thanks everyone for the comments, I will look into the cat idea as well.I have no real expereince with any of the dory style boats as they just dont seem to exist anywhere in the Northern part of Australia were I live. The St Pierre seems to get a good rap for being very seaworthy and economical to operate, that is why I have been intersted in this design. Does anyone know how they handle a big following sea with their flat bottom, and does the absence of a kiel effect their ability to hold a straight course in a following sea?
 
The lack of a keel in a flat bottom dory contributes to the seaworthiness, There is no keel to "trip" on, and they just slide down the waves. The true dory is very seaworthy in following seas. As for steering, they tend to hang on the rudder, which is all of the way aft, that with a little prop wash to give steering in any wave condition will give good tracking.
 
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