small water heater for 22' c-dory

P

patrick and linda

New member
any info out there regarding the installation of a shore powered water heater/shower system for the 22' cd?
the water heater would be installed under the starboard cabinet and the shower controls would be on the exterior wall in the cockpit area. back of shower unit would be visible from inside the starboard cabinet.
don't want to make this boat more than it is but if i've learned anything from this site it's ingenuity!
thanks
pat
 
www.tknw.com will get you to a source for the Espar, Hydronic line. We have been looking at the Hydronic 4 as a viable exchange for our current unit. These things are small enough to fit Any of the C-dory's and would burn fuel from the same tank as the wallas! In my case, this would eliminate both the current 6 gallon water heater AND the generator needed to run it, resulting in mega space gains!
Mike
 
It certainly could be used, but the primary design is for a heating unit for cabs and engine blocks--not as a water heater. I would probably want a small tank for storage of hot water--one of the problems of hot water in a small boat, is using up the water supply clearing the lines. Even in our larger cruising boats, we had a bypass valve, which would allow water from the hot water side to flow back into the tank until it was hot--thus no water was wasted waiting for the "hot" water.
 
Having no experience with these heaters I can only relate to what the advertizement says and they are advertised as a heater capable of supplying heat through a series of radiator type heaters placed where ever needed AND they will handle use for shower water heating, functioning as an on demand type heater, no tank mentioned.
Possibly someone with some real experience will join in and clear this up. For an Alaskan boater it looks like a novel approach, heat and hot water, my creative juices are already flowing. Lets see can I build a defrost system that wont rely on those cumbersome, ugly fans?
Mike
 
I have real first hand experience with a different brand of hydronic heater and it does work very very well. We had a 46,000 BTU unit in a 46 foot boat, with three zone heaters, plus passive radiators in the heads and hanging lockers. The current draw was 5.6 amps all running, including the fans in the radiators. We used a fire box from one manufactuer and radiators/controls from other manufacturers.

The espar will work the same as the unit I had (Hopefully as well). There was no diesel smell. The fuel was compressed by a fuel pump and air was injected with an air compressor. There was a forced draft exhaust and a circulation pump for the water. The water was maintained at 180 degrees (too hot for showers). Since we were running the main engine or genset daily for refigeration, we did not hook up a heat exchanger to the water heater or engine block. In our unit the liquid circulated was an antifreeze solution, that is why a heat exchanger would be necessary.

If I was to do this, I would take advantage of the heating function with several radiators in the boat. Our radiators were about 8" x 10" with multiple finned coils and 12 volt computer fans. We used a Robertson thermostat.

I am sure that you can run the output directly to a shower system--but I would prefer to have a small tank for storage, and equalization of flow etc. Frankly this is a fairly expensive "solution" to water heating--but if you want to heat the entire boat, it would make a lot of sense. Our system cost about $5,000 in 1992--and that was with discounts and doing the labor. (ours was ProHeat burner, and it is another boat now, still ticking away 15 years later, with no service problems). Our system was in a large engine room--the fire box was about 1' x 1' x 2', with a reserve tank of about a gallon about 3' above the system. You can get really serious problems, if you run the system dry--and that is why we had a heat exchanger system. The Espar may be able to be run dry, or have safety cut offs. We ran the liquid thru 3/4" hot water heater hoses, all thru the boat, and the passive radiators were 3/4" copper pipe along the floor--in some places coils back and forth behind cabints.

I would look at the clearance necessary. Our unit was completely housed in a diamond plate aluminum cover, and we had 6" clearance all around, with lagging on the flexiable exhaust hose, which went thru the hull. The air intake came in around the exhaust, so it also helped to cook the exhaust. The hyronic systems are the best way to heat a boat in Alaska.
 
Pat,
Read this thread on the C-Brats site.

http://www.c-brats.com/viewtopic.php?t=3802&highlight=water+heater

I tried clicking on williamsburg's link, but it's now showing his head project. You might try getting in touch with williamsburg to see if he has the pictures and details somewhere still that you can view. Incidentally, I have seen that water heater at Home Depot for about $129 I think. I was contemplating doing this with a shower option like you speak about where you can see the back of it in the cabinet, but it would be out in the cockpit.

Jack
 
The Hydronic 4 sells for around $1000, add in some plumbing which includes a couple small radiators and your up around $1300.
Mike
 
good impute guys, and thanks jack for the prior post, i'll check that out.
for my propose i would intend to use shore powerd electric and not diesel as the fuel to fire up the water heater.
the water supply would be from shore as well and not from the boats water system/storeage tank.
i've looked at tankless systems but they require either to much current and or amps or they don't heat the water to an acceptable level.
now to capt. bob, how are you doing today? when will you be traveling to my fine state of ohio?
best regards all,
pat
 
Hey, Pat,

You prob' already know about them, but Coleman has a small, portable water heater that uses disposable fuel tanks. Ppl I know who use them say they're great. They have a double burner and a single burner size and both are very, very small.

As far as heat goes, I don't think you could beat the low cost and effieincy of a simple electric boat heater, like the West Marine model. Most of them have a "no-freeze" setting which works great to keep the moisture out of your boat in any cool season.

Many are happy with the different solar hot water options, too.

Hydronic systems are the tops, of course, but to spend thousands?

Good luck...

John
 
hi john,
i'll check out coleman and see what's up with their system.
ideally, a tankless electric system would work best from a storage standpoint, that is, the space under the starboard cabinet is limited to begin with and most of it is now filled with necessarys. i've looked at the unit jack has referred to, the ariston, but that system is like many others 14" x 14" x 12", i guess i'm trying to put the square peg into the round hole.
some options i've looked at are moving the back wall out 30" to extend the cabin area to accommodate an inside head/shower set up, also looked at upgrading boats to the cd-25 or c-ranger25,. since the little 22' cd is paid in full, not sure if i can convince the little mrs. captain that spending more money makes sense.
one thing i'll learned from this site is, never leave well enough alone!
pat
 
The Coleman portable is a "tankless" water heater. you just run the water thru the little heater tank thing.

I'm in the same boat as far as fiddling around.... 'fun when it works out!

As far as the 22's size and use goes, I've always loved that boat.... since they were new. Much easier to move, load, store, etc., than the bigger models. I got the TomCat with the idea that I may move on to a 22 as I get older and want less work and more play! You know they sell those "shower stalls" that can be erected on a pontoon boat. You hang them from the bimini. 'might need a shower sump and pump on a 22, or use the swim platform.

John
 
I read thru the installation brochure on the Espar D 4 and it is definately a closed loop type of water heater, not made for direct domestic water heating (as some LP flow thru heaters are). You need to have a water to water heat exchanger for safety reasons at the least. If you have no water in the boiler, it will overheat; if you have small amounts of water, it may turn to steam, if you over pressurize the system there may be a spill. Another reason for the water to water heat exchanger is to prevent contamination of the domestic water supply.

These systems are almost identical to the system I have installed on several boats--they are closed loop designed initially to keep engine blocks on trucks and heavy equiptment warmed up and ready to go in super cold conditions. Many have branches to heat the cab and sleeper. These have evolved to be used on boats and RV's--where they heat the various cabins and use a water to water heat exchanger to heat water. For example the Espar D4 is used in sprinter RV's, where there is a diesel engine, the cab and the sleeping quarters can be heated and the domestic water heated thru a heat exchanger. Most of these systems use a tank to store the hot water; it does not have to be a large tank, but there is some lag in thermal transfer for the water to water heat exchanger.

If you can do the entire rig for $1300, including powered radiators, heat exchangers for the water heating, (be very carefull of 179 degree water), the fuel tank, and exhaust system it would be a real bargin.
 
You could also use a solar shower in the cockpit or swimstep and heat water on the wallas. I take nice warm showers at my cabin by filling a solar shower half way with cold water, then heating 2 gallons of water on a coleman stove a few pots at a time. It works very well and you can of course get the water up to an ideal teperature while you have your coffee. A real deal at 7-10 $. :D
 
I am going to try my Zodi hot water shower in my 22. You can get them in a single or double burner. Runs on propane and D batteries. The hole unit takes less space than a 6 gallon onboard heater. What I usually do camping is start it and put the shower head back in the tank and recirculate the water until it gets to the temp I want, then I shut down the burners and turn on the pump and take a nice hot shower. Here is a link to there site. http://www.tentheater.com/Consumer/zodi ... hower.html
 
Have to agree with JT. Maybe us Nevadans are just simple folk. We have used a solar shower (you know, the camping bag on the roof) for showers and a tea kettle on the stove for our hot water needs for our years of living on Halcyon -- simple, easy, inexpensive and efficient. Marinas often have showers, so when we come in for fuel we have the treat of a shore facility.
 
hi marc
i checked out the gl4-ariston system last evening at our local home depot center. (this was a follow up from jack's recommendation) they sell for $159. and, and, and, they have this new copper or brass connection fitting that simply snaps connections together. running the water lines couldn't be easier with this new setup. no soldering or compression fittings, tools needed. i would install a water inlet fitting on the starboard side of transom and use shore powered water for showers, thus no need for pump. i like the idea of showers away from shore but water storage becomes a problem. i'm already having to deal with the size of the water heater and where to store items displaced from the heater. our showers would take place in the cockpit area, we have complete camper enclosure so privacy shouldn't be an issue. also have conceal carry permit as back-up.
one thought was, connect a dc pump to a portable plastic 5 gallon can of water and use this as a, away from shore water source. not sure how many gallons one would use to take a shower.
any and all suggestions are welcomed.
i've said, and have told friends how great this site is for all the info given.
best regards
pat
 
Pat,

The Coleman unit has a self-contained pump and comes with a 5 gallon water jug, so it could be used away from the dock. Also, with organization, it is possible to have a good shower with 2-3 gallons of water. Wet up, turn off, soap up, turn on, rinse off.

John
 
I have looked at the Zodi unit that Redfox uses, it is pretty neat. For many years on the sailboat I used an aluminum yard spray can of about 5 gallons. It warms up nicely if you have sun. It was always enough. It takes about 1.5 gallons of water to shower us wide-bodies, the ladies probably something less. Oops! forgot about washing the hair. All bets are off.
 
hi john,
i've checked out the coleman unit you've recommended.
some reservations i have are, open flame in the cockpit area, another portable needing storage and shower water splashing on the unit.
my goal at this point is to go electric. shore power when made fast and generator when making way. speaking of which, my new eu2000i just arrived by ups, haven't opened the box but all looks sound.
the 22' cockpit is limited in size so less obstruction the better. i do appreciate your thoughts and look forward to continued conversations.
best regards
pat
 
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