SeaSport Out of Business
- Thread starter Jazzmanic
- Start date
Pat Anderson
New member
We can all sing it together this weekend!
sportner":1t7qjd7r said:
Levitation
New member
Notice that Ranger keeps close tabs on the mumblings of its customers, past, present and future...
Hi,
I think it might be good to write a little blurb on what you would say in a SHORT email to your faithful customer base if your company was in a pickle like some reported to be at the start of this thread. Maybe we can foster some added banter from the the home office. Here's mine,
Dear Brats,
We are moving, I have no idea what the new phone number will be just yet. I know we really have not been to involved with this forum , but let me say this "I love you guys." With your continued support we are going to do our best to weather this storm. I'll be asking your thoughts on marketing ideas, product changes,improvements etc. I plan to make a weekly report of our progress on our website. Your boat will always have a daddy. I wish all of you the best.
Big J
D.D.
I think it might be good to write a little blurb on what you would say in a SHORT email to your faithful customer base if your company was in a pickle like some reported to be at the start of this thread. Maybe we can foster some added banter from the the home office. Here's mine,
Dear Brats,
We are moving, I have no idea what the new phone number will be just yet. I know we really have not been to involved with this forum , but let me say this "I love you guys." With your continued support we are going to do our best to weather this storm. I'll be asking your thoughts on marketing ideas, product changes,improvements etc. I plan to make a weekly report of our progress on our website. Your boat will always have a daddy. I wish all of you the best.
Big J
D.D.
Levitation":16ztz027 said:
Novel idea, huh? Imagine that whole "listening to and communicating with your customers"... who would ever think that would be good for business? :roll: Ranger has more going for it than just good customer relations... but, that is certainly an indicator of good management style.
(Inserting tongue in cheek here) I don't recall ever visiting with a successful business person who said, "We decided to improve our sales by not responding to customers. Ya know, it takes a lot of our valuable time to answer a phone or respond to an e-mail, so we just eliminated all that crap. Combine that with coming out with new products that our customer base doesn't want, and you've got a sure fire change in sales. We were able to fine tune what they didn't want by not asking our enthusiastic customer base for their free opinions, and instead, over-paying some industry guy who didn't have a clue what our buyers want. Yep, win-win. It also helps to try to shove stock down dealers throats. I know this technique works, because we've almost entirely eliminated those pesky calls and e-mails - maybe now we can get some work done around here?" :roll:
Editor's Note: the above is a made up "quote". It was never really said... maybe.
There are some people on this forum who have successfully run businesses. Anyone here found the management style above to work? Anyone ever learn something from your customers? Something you can use to improve business or create more demand?
I've brought up the Ranger Tug business model in the past... both the Ranger and the C-Dory are unique products in their niche. Frankly, I don't think there is more demand for Ranger than C-Dory... yet, Ranger has boat orders and C-Dory demand has dwindled. Could it have something to do with the fact that Ranger not only responds to its customers, but seems to enthusiastically embrace them?
It baffles me that 3 factory owners in a row have missed this. Sometimes you have to do more than just produce a good product - you have to MARKET it! You don't just GET sales, you BUILD sales. Each call or e-mail is an OPPORTUNITY, not an interruption.
It just makes me shake my head. Maybe I just don't understand "the boat biz"?
Sigh.
Respectfully,
Jim B.
Denny , you might also note that Ranger Tugs are selling , and they are busy and have demand .Not because of the forum,[ we sold a bunch of Tugs before the T.N.] but because of what they build and their investment into new designs and improvements [ and maybe their dealers].That pays for the "factory sponsored" forum time . There is very little call for new C Dorys at this point and the brats often seem to direct folks to used boats on Craigslist over new .In my view that makes the C Brats for the most part, "enthusiasts", not "customers" .I don't think their [Triton/C Sport]participation would change that situation much .There is also 30+ years of C Dorys out there.Thats where the development comes in. Where are the design improvements?New models?
You are a case in point ! What did you look at and how did you buy ?
Marc
You are a case in point ! What did you look at and how did you buy ?
Marc
Mark,
I'm not looking to pick a fight but I don't think the C-Brats only sell used boats. It was certainly not the case with my purchase. I looked around on this site for two years before I bought boat my boat from Wefing's. I drove 2200 mile round trip to do it. It's want I said I would do. I like buying new things. I know I could save money buying two year old cars but it's not what I want. For me the mass exodus of seasoned dealers that was caused by some miracle worker at the factory trying to cram models they didn't want was the start of the fall. Some of those models are probably still not sold. Then a rapid secession of new owners, some followed by disavowing the warranty which some thought was important didn't help much. The new owner has had issues and phone numbers changing in the past month or so. Given the information posted at the beginning of this thread I'm not sure anyone would want to buy a new boat from a floundering builder. What would you tell a friend who wanted to buy a C-Dory? By being more upfront with the forum would be an excellent also free way to establish confidence in the current puveyors of the product. I bet most of the folks still holding cash available to buy new boats are pretty bright people and looking at the obvious might not have them reaching for check book for new boat from this builder. I'm not trying to be hurtful here just stating what I see lead to the current situation.
D.D.
I'm not looking to pick a fight but I don't think the C-Brats only sell used boats. It was certainly not the case with my purchase. I looked around on this site for two years before I bought boat my boat from Wefing's. I drove 2200 mile round trip to do it. It's want I said I would do. I like buying new things. I know I could save money buying two year old cars but it's not what I want. For me the mass exodus of seasoned dealers that was caused by some miracle worker at the factory trying to cram models they didn't want was the start of the fall. Some of those models are probably still not sold. Then a rapid secession of new owners, some followed by disavowing the warranty which some thought was important didn't help much. The new owner has had issues and phone numbers changing in the past month or so. Given the information posted at the beginning of this thread I'm not sure anyone would want to buy a new boat from a floundering builder. What would you tell a friend who wanted to buy a C-Dory? By being more upfront with the forum would be an excellent also free way to establish confidence in the current puveyors of the product. I bet most of the folks still holding cash available to buy new boats are pretty bright people and looking at the obvious might not have them reaching for check book for new boat from this builder. I'm not trying to be hurtful here just stating what I see lead to the current situation.
D.D.
Cutty Sark
New member
Right... How many Cbrats bought their boats new? A fair amount I'm pretty sure, and you never know when an "enthusiast" might decide to get three footitis, repower or needs service on their motor. If you can't see we are all customers you are missing the boat( and it's a nice one :wink: ). I know a few of us with older boats recently bought kickers, I ordered mine online, you didn't offer them at the time as you do now(which is great), but if you had, I surely would have ordered it through wefings just to support someone who supports this site and the Cbrat community. It's all in how you look at it, but personally I would view all current owners as customers or at least potential customers. But I try to be a glass half full type of guy.
IMHO
Sark
IMHO
Sark
turtleblues
New member
I was at the Triton plant last month asking a quick question. I believe it was Scott that I was directed to. He didn't have much experience with C-Dory, as a matter of fact he said they had only made 2 since they took over the line.
I wasn't privy to all this change when I was there or I would have quizzed them on the status.
I was surprised at how small of a facility they have. Only one person in the office and it didn't appear to have much square footage. It they plan on building all those boat lines they must be masters at floor utilization.
I wasn't privy to all this change when I was there or I would have quizzed them on the status.
I was surprised at how small of a facility they have. Only one person in the office and it didn't appear to have much square footage. It they plan on building all those boat lines they must be masters at floor utilization.
Dave, I said often ,not always . My post was partially directed to Denny.
I often help folks with C Dorys cause I like to [without gain] . I appreciate all the new boat buyers we have had and hopefully will have in the future . I appreciate that folks have tried to do business with us cause we are also "enthusiasts" . That was not meant to be negative . I agree that their chances of getting those orders would possibly increase by participating , but I dont think by much .
Everything you said regarding the downfall of the brand has merit , But I dont have people standing in line to order boats , I do however have a database of people looking for used boats . Just the facts .
I cant tell you how many times I called Scott R., Rich F., and now Jeff L. to tell them it might be a good time to pay attention to this website and participate.
Marc
I often help folks with C Dorys cause I like to [without gain] . I appreciate all the new boat buyers we have had and hopefully will have in the future . I appreciate that folks have tried to do business with us cause we are also "enthusiasts" . That was not meant to be negative . I agree that their chances of getting those orders would possibly increase by participating , but I dont think by much .
Everything you said regarding the downfall of the brand has merit , But I dont have people standing in line to order boats , I do however have a database of people looking for used boats . Just the facts .
I cant tell you how many times I called Scott R., Rich F., and now Jeff L. to tell them it might be a good time to pay attention to this website and participate.
Marc
Matt Gurnsey
New member
I think that when the factory sold direct, direct involvement made sense. With a dealer network, the factory removes itself from direct contact with the consumers, relying on their dealers to market the product, and bring back legitimate feedback from buyers / owners.
When I was involved in the aftermarket automotive maintenance industry, I dealt with all kinds of shops from small one man operations to large dealerships.
Some of the guys in these one man shops were some of the brightest techs I knew. But- Some of them had lousy people skills. They were very comfortable working wrenches and diagnosing runability issues, but didn't know how to make customers feel comfortable about parting with money for their services.
The smart guys recognized their shortcoming, and hired someone to be the guy at the counter who enjoyed dealing with people, could explain things at their level. This allowed the owner to focus on what he excelled at.
So (back to C-Dory) lack of direct factory participation is not a sign that they don't value the enthusiasts or owners. Their model is set up right now to sell through dealers, and those dealers are the face of the product.
Marc at Wefings and myself have been very active on these boards, so I would hope that when the time comes we would get at least the opportunity to earn your additional purchases / repowers.
When I was involved in the aftermarket automotive maintenance industry, I dealt with all kinds of shops from small one man operations to large dealerships.
Some of the guys in these one man shops were some of the brightest techs I knew. But- Some of them had lousy people skills. They were very comfortable working wrenches and diagnosing runability issues, but didn't know how to make customers feel comfortable about parting with money for their services.
The smart guys recognized their shortcoming, and hired someone to be the guy at the counter who enjoyed dealing with people, could explain things at their level. This allowed the owner to focus on what he excelled at.
So (back to C-Dory) lack of direct factory participation is not a sign that they don't value the enthusiasts or owners. Their model is set up right now to sell through dealers, and those dealers are the face of the product.
Marc at Wefings and myself have been very active on these boards, so I would hope that when the time comes we would get at least the opportunity to earn your additional purchases / repowers.
journey on
New member
Well, Scott Boysons post (listed above) should stop a lot of speculation and advice. I'm sure it will not, but it should.
Times are tough for all the boating industry, except for the mega-yachts, and everyone is trying to survive. I notice from Werfings latest flyer that a builder of one of their boat lines is coming alive again. Let's hope everyone does.
Since all of us have our C-Dory (C-Dories?), survival of the factory is a moot point. However, we all also appreciate, are entranced by, live & die by their lineage, etc. that comments are only to be expected. It's certainly a testament to the C-Dory line. I would offer whoever builds the C-Dory my advice, but they're the ones doing it, and all I can offer is my wish of good luck.
Boris
Times are tough for all the boating industry, except for the mega-yachts, and everyone is trying to survive. I notice from Werfings latest flyer that a builder of one of their boat lines is coming alive again. Let's hope everyone does.
Since all of us have our C-Dory (C-Dories?), survival of the factory is a moot point. However, we all also appreciate, are entranced by, live & die by their lineage, etc. that comments are only to be expected. It's certainly a testament to the C-Dory line. I would offer whoever builds the C-Dory my advice, but they're the ones doing it, and all I can offer is my wish of good luck.
Boris
Not all megayacht builders are dong well (maybe just those who sell to the Russians?)--But boating business is tough all over. We all know that.
As for us sending potential buyers to dealers vs private sales. I am as guilty as any one on this forum (and I bought my Tom Cat new from Marc Grove at Wefings). I know that many folks do not have the money to buy a new boat--and I would rather see them in a good used C Dory than another piece of xxxx boat. That same fellow is quite likely to become a good C brat member, and 5 years from now remember Marc Grove or Matt Gurnsey and buy a new 25, or a Tom Cat etc from them.
As to innovation. Well....The Reynolds tired some of that and look what it got them (the 29)--there have been evolutionary changes recently. But the Ranger tug is an entirely different boat, and I believe a different clientel. There have been some cosmetic changes in the C Dory line (headliners, cabinet changes, molded interiors--etc.
I think I can catagorically say that there is NO GROUP of boaters who are more loyal to the brand than the C Brats! I can also say that these people are very innovative and are very helpful to the evolution of the boat. The C Dory works--the VW camper worked--and probably would still sell today (Sprotsmobile is the modern equivilant, and they are doing very well). When I first started with the C Dory group--there was the 22 and the 16 (a few odd 27's, 30's, 14's and 18/19--and the old forgotten 25 cruiser. In the last 10 years, we have a complete evolution of the 25, the Tom Cat line (24 and 255--although there was a 30 in the past)--
If you look at Century (not sure if still being built)--they have been basically building the same boat for the last 15 years. Grady White--also very few changes in reality. Sure Sea Ray, puts in different windows, and some regressive hull forms etc--but do they make a better boat?
Basic conclusioin--there is still a huge market for new C Dories-=especially with fuel costs going up (they will) and retirement on the horizon for the largest group of people in the US history.
So lets hope that Triton or what ever the holding company is, makes it!
As for us sending potential buyers to dealers vs private sales. I am as guilty as any one on this forum (and I bought my Tom Cat new from Marc Grove at Wefings). I know that many folks do not have the money to buy a new boat--and I would rather see them in a good used C Dory than another piece of xxxx boat. That same fellow is quite likely to become a good C brat member, and 5 years from now remember Marc Grove or Matt Gurnsey and buy a new 25, or a Tom Cat etc from them.
As to innovation. Well....The Reynolds tired some of that and look what it got them (the 29)--there have been evolutionary changes recently. But the Ranger tug is an entirely different boat, and I believe a different clientel. There have been some cosmetic changes in the C Dory line (headliners, cabinet changes, molded interiors--etc.
I think I can catagorically say that there is NO GROUP of boaters who are more loyal to the brand than the C Brats! I can also say that these people are very innovative and are very helpful to the evolution of the boat. The C Dory works--the VW camper worked--and probably would still sell today (Sprotsmobile is the modern equivilant, and they are doing very well). When I first started with the C Dory group--there was the 22 and the 16 (a few odd 27's, 30's, 14's and 18/19--and the old forgotten 25 cruiser. In the last 10 years, we have a complete evolution of the 25, the Tom Cat line (24 and 255--although there was a 30 in the past)--
If you look at Century (not sure if still being built)--they have been basically building the same boat for the last 15 years. Grady White--also very few changes in reality. Sure Sea Ray, puts in different windows, and some regressive hull forms etc--but do they make a better boat?
Basic conclusioin--there is still a huge market for new C Dories-=especially with fuel costs going up (they will) and retirement on the horizon for the largest group of people in the US history.
So lets hope that Triton or what ever the holding company is, makes it!
Bob – I have been monitoring the hits and visits to my site and Russia is the number two country visiting my site. Don’t really know what to make of it.thataway":3kqyj4js said:
The top five countries are:
No. 1 = US
No. 2 = Russia
No. 3 = Poland
No. 4 = Canada
No. 5 = Ukraine
Most visitors are Direct Request
Then visitors linked from the C-Brats
Then search engines in this order - google / Bing / Yahoo.
If Sea Sport would take a more active role in this site, it would be a big help to their success and I do want to see them succeed. The C-Dory is just too good of a boat to be discontinued.
Dave
www.tolandmarine.com
thataway":3tqcgnjb said:
That was my point. The niche may be smaller than it was a few years ago, but there are still people out there who want to know about these boats. What would it have taken for the previous incarnations of the factory to respond to people with a note saying: "Thank you for your interest in C-Dory. Here is a link to one of the finest owners groups on the internet and to the website of your nearest dealer, ___________." ? Then give the dealer that contact info and let them follow up with it. But, nooooooooooo... no response to e-mail and phones that weren't answered by a real person, just voice mail that was rarely returned. If I were a dealer, I would be royally pissed at the way the factory dropped the ball on customer service. Sure, you dealers may be the "face" of C-Dory, but I wonder how many people got turned off by the lack of response from the factory and never made it as far as visiting a dealer?
Did the factory ever contact you dealer folks and ask what they could do to make a better product? Did they respond to you when you gave them customer input? I had occasion to visit with another part of the anatomy of the factory who was top of the heap at the time... he called me. Neither time responding to something I had suggested to them, but to respond to something I had written on this forum MONTHS earlier or to ask me if I knew someone who would be a good dealer in Texas. As long as I had his ear, I asked if he would like some absolutely free product and marketing suggestions... "Sure." And then he changed the subject as soon as possible. Both times I got off the phone shaking my head. If he had had a clue, it would have died of loneliness. :amgry
I don't see that the number of previously made boats encroaches on new sales. If the factory doesn't offer improvements in new boats, THEN there is little incentive to buy new. If a dealer doesn't have a boat that they can demo, then people are likely going to look at used. I bought my boat new... and the factory didn't have a demo boat (even though they sold direct at the time). These are not inexpensive boats, and people want to see how they perform before they plunk their money down. If not for my buddy, Starcraft Tom, I probably wouldn't have ordered my boat. Simply another example of how this forum supports the brand.
In case anyone thinks differently, I don't think the factory (whoever they are at any given time) needs this forum. BUT, they (and non-participating dealers) are pissing away an incredibly valuable resource by ignoring the forum.
Frankly, they've tried it the other (ignoring) way. Times are tough and it's a different business world out there these days. It would be interesting to see the factory promote these boats the way people BUY them - as a lifestyle. Offer a REAL Cruiser Package, with better seating, bigger fresh water tanks, water pump switches by the sink and in the head, more A/C outlets, an inverter option, a connection to charge the batteries while driving down the road on the trailer, better storage... all things that folks here have to do to their boats to improve them for cruising. You think this is a "boaterhome"? Step into a modern RV and you will see what today's consumer expects for convenience items. Got a microwave? Make a folding dinette seat like the Ranger 25 tug. Give people the option of more storage and a better shaped dinette seat for those who aren't going to make that dinette into a bed. Make an Angler Package that has rod storage, fish boxes, built in tackle storage in the cockpit, etc.
Damn, there is SO much room for improvement in these boats. Ask your customers what they want in a boat and LISTEN. If people are telling you what they want, they are telling you that they are interested. It's not a matter of "build it and they will buy it" anymore - rather, "build what they WANT and they will buy it." Show people using the boats in your marketing. Put the C-Brat gatherings info on the factory website. Promote owner participation: a page with "what did you name your boat and why?" Think that's silly? It would show HUNDREDS of active owners who are out there using their boats. It's FREE promotion - scads of testimonials that don't cost a cent. And it shows there are a bunch of enthusiastic owners... and who wouldn't want to be one of those people out there enjoying their boats? People need to be shown WHY they want one of these boats and HOW different people are using their boats.
"Lookie there, Ethyl, we could get one of these boats and go exploring America instead of sitting on our butts watching TV." The sky is always blue, the water is always pretty, and everyone toasts to a perfect sunset. Sell "the dream" but make it attainable. "You don't have to poop in a cup and eat cold beans every night - the new C-Dory 25 Cruiser has a generator rack (generator available for an extra charge) so you can make supper in the microwave. Toast to the sunset with the chilled wine that you just took out of your compact, but efficient refrigerator. And tomorrow morning, you can shower in your boat. Feeling free and sexy? Check out the hot and cold shower on the transom - perfect for those secluded coves. And when the rain does fall, you'll be dry and comfortable in your cabin with the 6' 10" headroom. Check out the storage. If the sunset isn't enough to keep you entertained, pull down the flat screen TV/DVD/stereo system and listen to satellite radio while you dance cheek to cheek in the cockpit under the stars.
I'm retired. I don't want another job (OK, this boat captain thing once in a while is kinda fun). BUT, I do know how to market stuff and I made very good money presenting seminars on providing good customer service to professional organizations. There is an amazing wealth of experience and enthusiasm on this forum, and the blinders-on, boat-biz factory folks have no idea what we could do for them. They think we are "people with problems." Well, build a better boat and there will be fewer problems. How many years did the stem guard leaking, anchor locker drain tube leaking, rub rail problems, etc go on and on? Are you telling me that with the first call on that stuff they couldn't figure it out for a couple years??? Hey, let's put the fresh water pump in the bilge... good idea, but let's put it where it will sit IN the bilge water. Did they hire an engineer for that??? Let's put the water pump switch up on the helm so each time someone is at the sink or on the can they have to go to the helm. And they've only been doing that since... forever?
Yeah, I'm on a rant now! These are GREAT boats. If the factory/dealers would listen to their customers, there would be improvements to make them even better. If the boats were constantly improving, there would be more demand for new boats. Don't change anything, including fixing dumb stuff, and there will be more demand for used boats that enthusiastic owners HAVE made improvements on. We don't want the factory to just build boats - we want them to LOVE them as much as we do. We want the workers to put every nut on every bolt with care. We don't want white glop slopped on every damn water connection. We want someone at the factory to actually look over the work before it goes out. We are paying a lot of money for these boats, and they should be delivered to us as close to perfect as humanly possible.
We had a policy in our studio: No Bad Days! If a client had a problem or something wasn't as promised, we made it right. Right now. And we learned from it and didn't make the same mistake again. And we thanked the customer for pointing a problem out to us and giving us the opportunity to make it right. And then we followed up with a call to the customer to make sure they were happy. And we thanked them for their business, because we know they have LOTS of options for where they can spend their money.
The C-Dory may be a niche boat, but that doesn't mean they are the only game in town. Turn someone away by making them deal with voice mail on the phone or don't return an e-mail and they will take their money elsewhere. Don't follow up with current owners and they will talk. People love to bitch about how they've been wronged and they love to brag about how well they get treated when they've bought a prestigious product (yes, I'm still talking about C-Dorys) and that the manufacturer/dealer appreciates them.
If anyone has read this far, thanks. If you happen to be a dealer or the factory, I am surprised. (Not you, Marc or Matt; we know you care). For goodness sake, this thread has gone on for PAGES. The factory could have put a stop to it within the first couple of posts. How did they handle it? Yep, they started a different thread. As I've said before, it's their prerogative. We've all seen where "business as usual" has taken the previous factory folks.
Sigh. Why do I bother? 'Cause I think Wild Blue is something special. I think a lot of us feel that way about our boats.
I promise to take a break from any factory thread for a while. You're welcome. :wink:
Best wishes,
Jim B.
Tyboo
Should we start a list of improvements we would want to see in construction as a easy reference for the factory?
Here's my short list:
a. Don't drill holes in the hull or exterior that compromise the core without making it waterproof. AKA fuel tanks, bilge pumps. hatches, etc. See Dr Bob's procedure.
b. Use stainless even if you can't see it.
Should we start a list of improvements we would want to see in construction as a easy reference for the factory?
Here's my short list:
a. Don't drill holes in the hull or exterior that compromise the core without making it waterproof. AKA fuel tanks, bilge pumps. hatches, etc. See Dr Bob's procedure.
b. Use stainless even if you can't see it.
journey on
New member
I feel left out. I've never gotten a Russian e-mail. Is it in Cyrillic?
My nomination for an improvement is the elimination of Bostic or equivalent sealer on the plumbing joints. If the joint doesn't work with just clamping or thread tape, there's something wrong with it. Sealer just covers over the problem and makes fixing it a lot harder.
As for sealing holes in the cored structure, there are a number of production line methods to do it and the factory should just adopt one which provides a good seal.
Boris
My nomination for an improvement is the elimination of Bostic or equivalent sealer on the plumbing joints. If the joint doesn't work with just clamping or thread tape, there's something wrong with it. Sealer just covers over the problem and makes fixing it a lot harder.
As for sealing holes in the cored structure, there are a number of production line methods to do it and the factory should just adopt one which provides a good seal.
Boris
matt_unique
New member
tpbrady":25f7kkan said:
A great idea but would fall on deaf ears in my opinion.