Removing my cockpit sole

[South of Heaven]

Myself and my mechanic are removing my cockpit sole on Saturday to inspect the bilge and let it dry out over the winter; I also wanna reseal it better in the spring. The old factory caulking is cracked and discolored. My boat will be stored indoors in a warehouse this winter that doesn't drop below 40F.

Any tips on removing the sole? My 25 has the removable sole with the screws around the perimeter. How heavy will it be? After it's removed can we walk in the cockpit? Is the fuel tank safe to walk on!?!!!

I'm also removing both steps and all the hatches in the cockpit. I can't wait to let her breathe over the winter. LOL

 

[Avidmagnum12]

Jason
You have way more energy than I have! Most 25 owners hope that they NEVER have to go there. To dry out the area below the cockpit deck I aim a fan through my inspection cover. It's a bit bigger than the one you have because the manufacturer did not put the original cover over the fuel sender. It will get wet under the cockpit again when you put your boat back in the water next spring. My caulking has a dark look. No problem! It's under my decadence flooring. I hated the way that my cockpit looked after every outing. Always cleaning.....now I just take the flooring out every month or so and hose it down. I would not walk on the tank.

To me it's a lot of work with little gain but hey.....that's me.

Have fun....Tom

 

[South of Heaven]

Jason
You have way more energy than I have! Most 25 owners hope that they NEVER have to go there. To dry out the area below the cockpit deck I aim a fan through my inspection cover. It's a bit bigger than the one you have because the manufacturer did not put the original cover over the fuel sender. It will get wet under the cockpit again when you put your boat back in the water next spring. My caulking has a dark look. No problem! It's under my decadence flooring. I hated the way that my cockpit looked after every outing. Always cleaning.....now I just take the flooring out every month or so and hose it down. I would not walk on the tank.

To me it's a lot of work with little gain but hey.....that's me.

Have fun....Tom

Tom, I'm not looking forward to it! The reason why I'm doing it is because I noticed some rot in the core of my starboard step. It wasn't properly sealed and probably the previous owner did some work to the fuel lines or something and needed access. Anyway, to make a long story short I really wanna inspect under the cockpit now. If not it'll be bugging me all winter.

 

[Salmon Fisher]

When I removed mine to inspect and replace the fuel line I tried to cut the caulking with a utility knife. It didn't work very well. I used a propane plumbers torch and heated a wide utility knife. The hot knife went right through the caulking and I worked my way around the caulked joint. I wore a respirator because the fumes weren't good. Use a fan for circulation and a respirator. I epoxied the bottom of the steps after I dug out the rotted core. Then I used 3M 4000 to caulk when everything was done.
Once the cockpit hatch is off, I put some boards across so I could work around the fuel tank cleaning it all out.
You'll never keep the area under the cockpit dry, everything drains in there. The best way is to keep the hatches open for circulation and the cockpit covered if you can.

Good luck on your project.

 

[BrentB]

Are you planning to inspect the underside of the tank to determine if it is resting of some type of supports and check tank condition? I would check the entire area drains properly to the bilge pump and improve if needed to avoid any trapped water. If it has foam around the tank or its sides, check for dampness and replace if needed. Good time to replace fill and vent hoses, inspect wire and ground wire on fuel sender. whew,,if me,I would pull the tank, clean it and spray with coal tar epoxy, rebed it with bottom supports and new foam, and make sure the pie plate is properly located over the fuel sender and hoses, inspect pie plates and hatches and replace if needed with proper sealing, I added a solar fan to old pie plate that exhausts air outward when the boat not a CD25 is not in use and keeps the area bone dry

I dont recall on 25 if the fuel cell is in a closed coffin but thought it was not and used strips to support tank off the hull an inch ... that is reason I mentioned epoxy paint and attempt to improve water flow and add a solar fan

If decking is just gelcoat on top and underneath is bare plywood, I would seal the bottom and sides with epoxy and cloth.


m2cw

 

[Avidmagnum12]

Jason
You did not mention rot in your first post....that changes everything. Somewhere along the way they changed the cockpit floor from a wood one to a composite one. My 2011 has no wood in the floor. I know because I had to add access to the fuel sender. I've been on a couple older 25's than were soft. It's too bad that the sealing was not done properly......Tom

 

[beermanPDX]

Welcome to a potential can of worms. With my 2008 25 Cruiser, my removable sole definitely was getting spongier over the years I owned it around that access port in the center (right over the fuel pickup/sender). The factory never properly sealed the wood core of the of the sole when installing that port. The rot eventually spread out in about a 2 foot diameter circle around that port. I knew I needed to remove the sole and re-core / re-glass from the underside at some point. I just never got around to it prior to selling the boat.

I sold the boat in May and disclosed this issue to the buyer. The surveyor also found some excess moisture in the hull at the stern, a few feet athwartships of the keel. We took the boat to the yard for further inspection. They did find moisture, but nothing that required re-coring. They removed the sole and determined the issue was most likely related to many small hull penetrations that were not properly sealed by the factory. There are quite a few small brackets, bilge pump basket, etc that were screwed in to the hull and sealed with 5200 or similar. They removed and properly resealed all these penetrations. I'd suggest doing the same while you have the sole removed.

Since they had to remove the steps to remove the sole, they were also able to see rot issues there as well just like you are seeing.

I also had another rot issue. The surveyor found high moisture on the foredeck where the windlass / hawse were installed. These areas were also never properly sealed by the factory. Unfortunately, this area had to be re-cored (it's plywood, not end-grain balsa here).

Long story short, we spent quite a bit of money fixing rot issues when I sold the boat. Most of these issues I did not know about. You now have a chance to get ahead of some of these potential issues since you are already removing the floor.

Good luck!

 

[journey on]

I went the route of removing the floor. I would recommend that you try and dry out the gas tank area by working through the existing access holes and/or adding a new one. As the quoted blogs indicate it's a bear to remove the floor and doesn't gain a lot. The caulk checking is only on the surface.

Boris

For more on what happens around the gas tank, read these two posts:

C-Dory 25 Cockpit Recaulk
C-25 Gas Tank Leak

This is the year I'm going to fix those cockpit hatches so they don't leak. That's where most of the water comes in. Several good ideas in the past posts, but I can't find them.

Boris

 

[thataway]

Good idea to remove the fuel tank, if easy to do. I also agree with coating with coal tar epoxy (it can be brushed on or rolled on as well as sprayed. But the aluminum does have to be properly prepared.

Best to set the tank back down on fiberglass or plastic strips aligned for and aft, bed with 5200 both for the strips on the hull and tank onto the strips.

I would avoid any foam contact with the tank. Do not put any rubber compound between the strips and tank. Be sure that there is good drainage under the tank. May have to interrupt the supporting strips.

I would properly "tab" the steps on each side back in place, rather than just sticking them down with some bedding compound.

I would also check the structure of the outside of the aft cabin bulkhead looking for any water intrusion into the core.

Good luck!

 

[BrentB]

I dont know how many mounting tabs are attached to the tank but the full tank has alot of mass and needs to be prevented from moving esp if only tabs are on top, and the foam in the sides but not on the bottom. Foam on top can sealed, I am thinking
use 4lb density foam, trim with the top of the tank. use some 3in fiberglass tape,. Lap the glass from the side to the top of the tank in a L shape m2cw

 

[journey on]

Let's review what I found when I pulled the cockpit sole in Journey On.

First the tank wasn't tabbed or glued in place. There was no foam anywhere. No tank tar coating. If you want to add that feel free but the factory installation doesn't use that.

The tank was laying in the bottom on plastic supports, held in place by restraining blocks bonded to the hull. To remove the tank, you'd have to cut out those blocks, undo the fill and vent hoses on either side and remove the fill lines.

Now, I found that there was no corrosion on the tank in 10 years. Alyssa Jean had a corroded tank and had to replace it. I believe the difference was Journey On sits on a trailer 9 months of the year.

So, lets stop guessing how the tank is installed. Read the 2 posts I show above and then make guesses.

I don't believe the factory is doiing fuel tank installation any different now.

Bors

 

[Sunbeam]

I've never seen exactly what a 25 looks like, but for built in tanks in general (if metal), I go for the same way as Thataway describes. If the tank(s) are plastic then no worries about corrosion (the below pertains to metal mostly). With plastic the concern is more about support and expansion (plus containment of course).

1) No foam. It always ends up getting wet and then it can promote tank corrosion.

2) Keep tank up off bottom by a combination of whatever shaped supports are needed to conform to boat bottom, plus some "runners" that are adhered to the tank (if the tank is the shape of the boat bottom then these can be one and the same). The idea is that you want to minimize potential corrosion. The runners and/or supports keep the tank up out of casual bilge water. Areas that are wet and/or lack oxygen getting to them can corrode. So these runners are made of something solid, and cover just the amount of area on the tank as they need to (but not more), and you adhere them with something that will block all water (since of course you are blocking oxygen, then best to keep the water out). So 5200, etc.

3) Support tank in place against crashes, bangs, waves, etc. But not with foam because it deteriorates, promotes corrosion, etc. Tabs, bars, straps, etc. Pre-made fiberglass shapes can come in handy for this (McMaster Carr).

 

[BrentB]

I went the route of removing the floor. I would recommend that you try and dry out the gas tank area by working through the existing access holes and/or adding a new one. As the quoted blogs indicate it's a bear to remove the floor and doesn't gain a lot. The caulk checking is only on the surface.

Boris

For more on what happens around the gas tank, read these two posts:

C-Dory 25 Cockpit Recaulk



C-25 Gas Tank Leak

This is the year I'm going to fix those cockpit hatches so they don't leak. That's where most of the water comes in. Several good ideas in the past posts, but I can't find them.

Boris

Boris

Thanks for posting the links and i better understand the situation

Looks like the bilge area will be wet nearly all of the time and coal tar epoxy will help along with improved tank supports. Maintaining and replacing deck plates and hatches along with seam sealing will help lessen leakage and reduce foam. if used fromabsorbing water. Trailered boats could be elevated to help drain the bilge. A good opp for someone to install a bilge blower on a timer and open deck plates to dry out during storage

 

[South of Heaven]

UPDATE!

So we hauled out the boat today. Depressing.....just depressing. Lol. It's gonna be a long winter.

We did the full engine winterization, water system and every other thing associated with an upcoming boat hibernation.

In regards to the cockpit sole.....IT WAS NOT EASY to remove it. We cut away most of the old caulking and were able to lift it up on the forward part about 3 feet or so. We didn't do a full removal because the step tabs (metal brackets) were in the way and I didn't wanna remove them. So we just left the sole about 1 foot up and propped it up with 2 hard boxes. Worked good actually. From what we could tell from our limited inspection the sole itself seems okay (which was my whole reason for doing this project). The bilge and gas tank were harder to inspect because we didn't remove the entire floor but the tank looked "okay" from the top and sides. Obviously it was dirty but seemed to be fine. So, I'm fine with the outcome from today. The cockpit floor is gonna remain slightly ajar for the next 3 or 4 months in a dry, non freezing, indoor setting. I also took all of the hatches off and opened all the deck storage boxes. I also cut away the 2 steps and will let those areas "breathe" as well.

The rot that I found in the starboard step was also present in the port one BUT to a lesser extent. I'm pretty sure that I'll be able to "rebuild" both of them myself and make a DIY project out of it. I'm not gonna spend hundreds of dollars on having a fiberglass guy rework the steps; especially since the steps are not load bearing and are fiberglass on both sides. It's so frustrating that whoever removed the steps before didn't seal them properly. Aaargh, those peons.

It'll be nice to have the cockpit dry out though. I'm glad I decided to tackle it. I've got lots of other mods and repairs that I'm doing over the winter as well. The boat will be resting but I won't!

 

[journey on]

Congratulations on the sole removal. I'll bet it was a bear!!! Now you get to remove the old caulking before you reseal it. Remember, most of the water gets to the bilge through those two flat hatches in the rrear of the cockpit, such as when you wash the boat.

Boris