Quality Question

I'm ready to give it up too guys, apologies to James for changing the tone of your original thread. I feel some comfort knowing that my concerns are not ill based or like I'm the lone ranger. Responding to several of the later post, you will note in my profile block that my New boat is an 04 model. It was a dealer holdover and about to be a 2 year old boat when I bought it. Yes the pump and water heater are operator errors but these errors occured prior to me being the operator! I have no experience with the uniformity of the electrical system and wiring but it all appears to be in order and neatly done so I dont guess it bothers me if it does not match anyone elses.
Along the way I also got a glimps into some of your personalities,Thanks for all the effort folks, Mike on Huda Thunkit
 
Hi Folks,

Just an additional thought on this thread.

I had more than one dealer tell me that they can not find capable people that can install radios, anchor windlasses, lights,etc. If I have any energy left when I finally get out of the Inn business, I was going to offer my services to dealers for an hourly fee. Most of us that fiddle with these boats can do a better job than the dealers.

Also some of the so called Perko stuff is not that good. I found out later that some of their stuff is zinc and some is stainless. A lot of people that work at West Marine do not know the difference.

I purchased a replacement combo bow light and installed it on my forward deck. Just at the end of the Erie Canal trip last fall, Bill said that the lights did not work. To change a light bulb, I had to take two screws out to remove the fixture from the deck, and then two screws out to get the back off. The light bulb was corroded. Very poor design by a so called quality manufacturer. I have since replaced it with separate side lights that have only two screws, and a bulb can be changed from my side window. They are not Perko.

I also want to get a taller Running/anchor light, but the new ones are much more cheaply built. Much thinner metal than the old one.

I guess that if we all become experts in doing our own work, we will be better off. I get great enjoyment just working on my boat.

Fred
 
Good point. All the manufacturers are victims of supplier QC. All my Whalers have had Perko junk on them as well. Since there's a liner, I can't check on backing plates, so out of sight . . . Agree on the forward cleat, a big plate is needed there, the two rear cleats I kinda sorta understand as they have a big block of wood molded in for the plate (still would like to see one there).

What are you folks doing in cold climes to keep the water-heater, raw water pump, etc., from bursting? Drain completely, add RV antifreeze, a little of both?
 
ffheap":1glybapy said:
If I have any energy left when I finally get out of the Inn business, I was going to offer my services to dealers for an hourly fee. Most of us that fiddle with these boats can do a better job than the dealers.

...

I guess that if we all become experts in doing our own work, we will be better off. I get great enjoyment just working on my boat.

Fred
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As a newly retired, former business owner (who just finished 90 days of training someone else's employees :disgust ), I would be concerned about someone "offering their services". Not that you wouldn't do a great job, Fred; but they often have to plan their service out a ways. Are you willing to make that kind of time committment to a particular dealer? When do you stop being a contract worker (1099 forms to the gov't) and become an "employee" (even more paperwork and expense).

This is certainly not a slam to anyone who is an employee, but our particular business was more profitable and efficient when we did not have employees. We turned a lot of work away, our gross was less, but the net was more and efficiency skyrocketed. Perhaps I'm a slow-learner, but it took me a long time in business to get to that point. I've admired Les' policy regarding fitting out the boats he sells. But, how many dealers can afford to limit the number of boats they sell or have customers who are willing to wait for service/rigging?

With our boats, I've always subscribed to the idea that those who build them and sell them are the ones to best service them. Now living in a "service no-man's land", I will have to change that belief and take a more hands-on approach.

My two pesos.

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
The point I was trying to get across is that the dealers selling boats, not necessarily C-Dory dealers because the few C-Dory dealers I met do good work, do not do good work. They can not find good employees, as I found out.

The guy who has done, and is doing some fiberglass work for me, works alone, and makes more money without employees. He gave them up years ago. I also have to wait to get the work done. Right now, my boat is in Hingham MA waiting to be worked on. I am in Nantucket running an Inn. I could have done the work myself, and was trying to but we got hit with a lot of rain this spring.

If I did work on boats, I would work on a 1099. It was just an idea.

One thing I discovered is that people in the boat business do not have time to enjoy their boats.

Fred
 
I agree that cleats should have backing plates--in many cases a large fender washer may be adequate--the current Tom Cat 255 has a backing plate behind the windlass--but the fordeck cleat is almost useless--and no backing plate. (I have corresponded with the factory about this issue). Incidently, a fiberglass inner and outer laminate with plywood between is not a substitute for a backing plate. Frankly many wooden boats were far stronger than the current technology--look at sampson posts in many traditional boats, which were thru bolted to the backbone of the boat.

I will be changing some things on my new boat. These are items not up to my standards.

However the current climate is for cookie cutter boats. I was told I would have what I wanted when I ordered a boat which was not on the line yet.
I wanted the fish boxes foamed in. I was then called and told it had not been done--but they would foam the aft and outside areas at the minimum. That there was now closed cell foam in the sides of the boxes. I get the boat, and no foaming in!

I wanted a second water tank--was told that although at least one other boat had a second water tank, it was a special deal because the person had been working with the factory and it was a delayed delivary...however the factory did send a second tank along--in another boat, but still no instructions on where I have to cut the floor out to put that tank in! Also I will have to remove most of the screwed in furniture to get to where I cut the floor to put the second water tank in. The tank could have been easily put in place during manufacturing--and I would have been glad to pay for it. I do believe that C Dory has put them selves in a bind, by producing several new lines and then not following thru with the boats which were in production. On the other hand, the factory did some extra things for me, at no charge, which I do appreciate.

I agree with wiring issues. I have not gone thru the entire system, but there are things which I see as going to be a problem. The main buss bar aft is right under the piece of starboard which covers the rear seat opening--spray gets on this starboard, and will get on the wiring causing corrosion. Also there is no protection over the these open buss bar. I don't think that my boat is to ABYC wiring standards. I will sort out the wiring and fix what is wrong.

Also if a cored deck or area is cut into, that cored with wood, should have epoxy sealant over this cut.

I am a repeat C Dory buyer, but not at all blind to some defects. It is rare to find any boats which have no defect--but once a defect is found out, they should be fixed and not recurr. I hope that is where C Dory will shine. I know that there are many changes from the first Tom Cat 255 to mine (number 39). Hopefully all of these charges are for the best!...
 
Alasgun,

I didn't miss your point either. I had a handful of issues on our Tomcat and had too deal with them myself. The dealer was 8 hrs away, and it was easier to take care of it, than try and get it back to them to have it fixed. These were not cosmetic, but dealt with function of the vessel.
I struggled with the value for the money question for a long time, and still do.
The comments made about compromise are pretty close to where I ended up.
Their a spartan craft that lend themselves nicely to handy people. I couldn't have afforded a different cat with the same amenities and size. Having said that however, there were several things that I had to deal with that where the result of careless and shoddy work.
I guess the nut of this whole thing would be, that if I had it to do over again, I'd do the same thing. Yeah, theres some quality issues, but considering how much they try to put in these boats, if they turned the fit and finish up a notch it would reflect in the cost. I could come up with a pretty good list of things that could be improved, but the cost would probably have been a little closer to 110k instead of the 80 we paid.
Does that mean that they get a pass for the sloppy job of finishing the inside of the rode locker, or failure to wire the Windlass correctly, or screwing up the wiring for the shore power, or skipping the the valve next to the head so that when your underway with the seacock to the head open, the head fills with water,.........no.
When I had a fuel tank spring a leak last year, the factory worked with Wefing(not the original dealer) to make the repairs. They didn't balk about it, and I was happy with their response.

Trying to decide if you got what you paid for with a boat is tricky business.
Unless you've owned alot of boats before to give you an idea of value for your dollar, its even worse.

I've owned a Harley, and wouldn't buy another. Compared to what else is on the market, their not worth the money. When you get past the emotional attraction, there are better values. I do have a Mercedes truck however(Dodge Sprinter) :wink: Personal opinion is that its head and shoulders over any other work van on the market. If it would pull the boat it would be perfect.

I've owned a 30ft class C motorhome, when I think about the 56k I spent for that compared to the boat, its a head scratcher. The motorhome was probably twice the value of the boat, but it didn't float.

Yes C-dory people love their little boats, and alot have bought another. When I was looking at boats I remember one of the good people on this forum commenting about the hull on a Tomcat and how smooth it was. I must have got one of the dimpled ones. :|

My advice to anyone looking to buy a boat, is to put some time in on the water in a variety of different choices. Don't take the word of people you don't know. For Heavens sakes!!, its the internet. :wink
 
This thread has been in the tradition of C.dory...questions, debate, and great information.

I have owned eight boats, from an 18 ft. bateau to two 40' trawlers...all wood..all wonderful boats, but with the normal problems all boats have...for me, that is owning a boat.

C. dory, with the simplicity, the efficiency, and the beauty of the boat, has come along at a great time for me. I've had a few problems: solved by Cutter Marine....I've had questions: solved by Jeff M. at the factory, usually in 24 hours...I"ve had a few situations where i needed help....solve by people on this site, who give invaluable advice and precise knowledge...

If we could all by a car with these guarantees, wouldn't it be great? I don't "worship" the c.dory, but i respect the quality of the product...and i love the comments i get from envious owners of other boats...As El and Bill always say.."keep it simple"....if we do that, we have the best boat for most situations, and the best dollar value available...

terraplane
 
I agree that cleats should have backing plates--in many cases a large fender washer may be adequate--the current Tom Cat 255 has a backing plate behind the windlass--but the fordeck cleat is almost useless--and no backing plate. (I have corresponded with the factory about this issue). Incidently, a fiberglass inner and outer laminate with plywood between is not a substitute for a backing plate.
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-- agreed on the plate, although we're mixing boats. The 22 is space limited on the rear two cleats, so the molded in block with washers is definately preferable to single ply and washers (and we've all seen that). A plate (since there's room to only cover the block of wood) would give little additional strength, but would give some, so still should be used.

The forward cleat on the 22 -- no no. A backing plate needs to be there.

On the 22 I'd also like to see the lip on the transom be straight instead of wider than the transom, but that's just so the smaller engines can be fitted there (4 hp Yamaha, etc). As it is the lip has to be shaved or the bracked modified.

All in all though, pretty darn good thusfar.
 
Hi Stu, I thought you were just playing that role on a MSN forum....

troll.jpg
 
CSTANARD":c13mwbia said:
This is certainly an eye opening tread for a prospective buyer to read. If the factory participates on this site, where are they? I would sure like to hear why they currently do not have the capability to product a defect free product. Much more importantly to me as a prospective buyer is - what are you doing about it?

Is there high turn over at the factory? Are the people not well trained? A disenfranchised workforce? Poor pay and benefits?.

Some of the defects mentioned are the result of poor process controls and uncaring employees. A lack of mold release and resulting gel voids is inexcusable especially with a cored hull boat. We all know what happens when water gets into a cored hull. No excuse for that, it is boat building 101.

It has to make you wonder what other defects exist that are out of sight.

I sure am not going to spend 100K on a boat and then be an inspector for the factory. Furthermore, why there are no backing plates on cleats is beyond me. That should be standard practice on boat this expensive.

What a disappointment. I was really looking forward to a Tomcat but I gotta tell ya, I am having serious second thoughts.

It would be nice to hear from the factory.
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If your entire decision regarding what boat to buy is based on what you read on the internet, then I hope you have Broad Band. There are more opinions and criticisms on the WWW about boats both good and bad that you'll need a lifetime to get thru them and you still won't know whether the stated opinion is of value or not.
Get off you butt and go ride some boats, make a short list, and take your pick and live with it. Or, don't you have any faith in your own ability to make the right decision?

This is the second time we've all witnessed your hand wringing psuedo drama over a boat purchase. Sh!t or git off the pot. If the Tomcats not for you so be it. Seems you'd rather nit pic than make a decision.

Gordon
 
Have you looked at other boats in the 100k neighborhood?

Try not to confuse defensive with perturbed. The post I've seen on here so far indicate thaat you'd rather tell everyone how you were thinking about it, but not now. If thats pondering than I hope you live to be a hundred, because you'll need the time to make up your mind.
 
Stopped by the metal shop, bought a 8"x12" plate and had the guy drill it as well, rounded the corners (always round the corners of a plate so it doesn't crack your fiberglass under stress) and put it on. $8 and whatever labor I'm worth.

Still love the C-Dory for all it lets me do!
 
I guess I'm the moron because I passed on purchasing one 13 years before I did and missed camping in the mountains, camping on the road, hunting, diving, treasure hunting, gold mining, and last but not least, boating and fishing on my C-Dory.

Oh well.

Wa. State goldmining:

Smilk2.jpg


Colorado Mtns:

DEFC10.jpg
 
CSTANARD":3v4hc3ql said:
What I have learned is there is at least one moron that owns a C-Dory.
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See, my point exactly. When you want to make your mind up you seem to do just fine.

So any other boats in the 100k range that your looking at?
 
CSTANARD":3he0luj7 said:
This is certainly an eye opening tread for a prospective buyer to read. ...

It has to make you wonder what other defects exist that are out of sight.

...
Click to expand...

I can think of one. :moon Anyone can be anything on the internet... especially when that keeps one "out of sight."

I did months of research before plunking my money down. Along the way, I didn't call anyone a moron or put down something I didn't have hands-on experience with. I will be picking up my new C-Dory within the month. I expect it to be a great boat. If something isn't right, I expect that the factory will take care of me... the collective wisdom of the folks on this forum has assured me of that.

Do you really expect to come on an owners' group site, put down the product, call people names, try to put the factory on the defensive, and have no one call you on it?

We made our decision within 48 hours of seeing a boat, visiting with the factory folks and a bunch of other owners (including a couple who took time out of their lives to take us out on their C-Dory). Took us months to get there, but there has been no doubt in our minds since that time that we made the right decision.

Yeah, it sounds like a troll to me...no more, no less.

Jim B.
 
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