Prudence and leaving the dock
- Thread starter Hunkydory
- Start date
Cpl. R. Coulter showed me how they used to kill rattlers back in Oklahoma when we were in the 7th Infantry Div. in California while on field training exercises at Ft. Hunter Liggett. Granted, he demonstrated on a non-poisonous bull snake, but they're very similar in anatomy. He pinned one's head to the ground with a long stick. He reached down and grabbed it behind the head with his left hand and grabbed about 3" in front of the tail with his right. In one deft motion, he lifted and drew back with the right, releasing with his left and snapped/cracked the varmint like a whip. The head came off pronto. This worked very well.
I had the chance to get a real rattler with my e-tool once. I had practiced holding it upon my forearm and then flipping it forward rapidly (the 90 degree shovel end chopping sticks etc), and when a couple guys from 1st platoon came to tell me there was a rattler in the midst of where they were trying to dig several rifle pits and the company would be staying for three days, I followed up. It worked. I told the guys to avoid the head (which can still close/bite after decapitation). We sliced the body up, added garlic salt and fried it up in a little skillet on my Optimus 8R backpacking stove, and consumed it with relish to the amazement of the city recruits. And yes, it tasted like chicken. C.W.
I had the chance to get a real rattler with my e-tool once. I had practiced holding it upon my forearm and then flipping it forward rapidly (the 90 degree shovel end chopping sticks etc), and when a couple guys from 1st platoon came to tell me there was a rattler in the midst of where they were trying to dig several rifle pits and the company would be staying for three days, I followed up. It worked. I told the guys to avoid the head (which can still close/bite after decapitation). We sliced the body up, added garlic salt and fried it up in a little skillet on my Optimus 8R backpacking stove, and consumed it with relish to the amazement of the city recruits. And yes, it tasted like chicken. C.W.
A
Anonymous
Guest
only thing I'm grabin is my waders!
Here is one of those ut-ohh moments.
A friend of mine went rock-cliff climbing by himself, did not bring the rock anchors or whatever you call them.
Got a good ways up when a storm blew in,he radioed for help but due to the storm they would not send a helo out till it cleared.
Not sure sure how long he clung to life there, but eventually he had to let go.
36 years old.
It probably just me, but I think people take WAY to many risks with their lives.
seems one could write a book on all the dangerous (stupid?) things people do that they call fun.
IMHO
James :shock:
A friend of mine went rock-cliff climbing by himself, did not bring the rock anchors or whatever you call them.
Got a good ways up when a storm blew in,he radioed for help but due to the storm they would not send a helo out till it cleared.
Not sure sure how long he clung to life there, but eventually he had to let go.
36 years old.
It probably just me, but I think people take WAY to many risks with their lives.
seems one could write a book on all the dangerous (stupid?) things people do that they call fun.
IMHO
James :shock:
I haven't seen the "GAR" model mentioned in the posts about "seaworthiness" and "prudence".
But as an USCGAUX facility...we (and all USCG patrols in our district) are required to determine the "appropriateness" of any patrol based on six factors; the description of the model is below (one of the links to the description with some graphic / one-page set-up is: http://www.uscgaux01303.org/gar1.pdf
The determinations of each category of risk is still subjective, but it is a tool in risk assessment!!
therevdr on DRIFTWOOD DREI
Risk Calculation Worksheet - Calculating Risk Using GAR Model (GREEN-AMBER-RED)
To compute the total level of risk for each hazard identified below, assign a risk code of 0 (For No Risk) through 10 (For Maximum
Risk) to each of the six elements. This is your personal estimate of the risk. Add the risk scores to come up with a Total Risk
Score for each hazard.
SUPERVISION
Supervisory Control considers how qualified the supervisor is and whether effective supervision is taking place. Even if a person is qualified to
perform a task, supervision acts as a control to minimize risk. This may simply be someone checking what is being done to ensure it is being
done correctly. The higher the risk, the more the supervisor needs to be focused on observing and checking. A supervisor who is actively
involved in a task (doing something) is easily distracted and should not be considered an effective safety observer in moderate to high-risk
conditions.
PLANNING
Planning and preparation should consider how much information you have, how clear it is, and how much time you have to plan the evolution or
evaluate the situation.
TEAM SELECTION
Team selection should consider the qualifications and experience level of the individuals used for the specific event/evolution. Individuals may
need to be replaced during the vent/evolution and the experience level of the new team members should be assessed.
TEAM FITNESS
Team fitness should consider the physical and mental state of the crew. This is a function of the amount and quality of rest a crewmember has
had. Quality of rest should consider how the ship rides, its habitability, potential sleep length, and any interruptions. Fatigue normally becomes a
factor after 18 hours without rest; however, lack of quality sleep builds a deficit that worsens the effects of fatigue.
ENVIRONMENT
Environment should consider factors affecting personnel performance as well as the performance of the asset or resource. This includes, but is
not limited to, time of day, temperature, humidity, precipitation, wind and sea conditions, proximity of aerial/navigational hazards and other
exposures (e.g., oxygen deficiency, toxic chemicals, and/or injury from falls and sharp objects).
EVENT or EVOLUTION COMPLEXITY
Event/Evolution complexity should consider both the required time and the situation. Generally, the longer one is exposed to a hazard, the
greater are the risks. However, each circumstance is unique. For example, more iterations of an evolution can increase the opportunity for a loss
to occur, but may have the positive effect of improving the proficiency of the team, thus possibly decreasing the chance of error. This would
depend upon the experience level of the team. The situation includes considering how long the environmental conditions will remain stable and
the complexity of the work. Assign a risk code of 0 (For No Risk) through 10 (For Maximum Risk) to each of the six elements below.
Supervision
Planning
Team Selection
Team Fitness
Environment
Event/Evolution Complexity
Total Risk Score
The mission risk can be visualized using the colors of a traffic light. If the total risk value falls in the GREEN ZONE (1-23), risk is
rated as low. If the total risk value falls in the AMBER ZONE (24-44), risk is moderate and you should consider adopting
procedures to minimize the risk. If the total value falls in the RED ZONE (45-60), you should implement measures to reduce the
risk prior to starting the event or evolution.
GAR Evaluation Scale
Color Coding the Level 0f Risk
0 23 44 60
The ability to assign numerical values or “color codes” to hazards using the GAR Model is not the most important part of risk
assessment.[/b]
But as an USCGAUX facility...we (and all USCG patrols in our district) are required to determine the "appropriateness" of any patrol based on six factors; the description of the model is below (one of the links to the description with some graphic / one-page set-up is: http://www.uscgaux01303.org/gar1.pdf
The determinations of each category of risk is still subjective, but it is a tool in risk assessment!!
therevdr on DRIFTWOOD DREI
Risk Calculation Worksheet - Calculating Risk Using GAR Model (GREEN-AMBER-RED)
To compute the total level of risk for each hazard identified below, assign a risk code of 0 (For No Risk) through 10 (For Maximum
Risk) to each of the six elements. This is your personal estimate of the risk. Add the risk scores to come up with a Total Risk
Score for each hazard.
SUPERVISION
Supervisory Control considers how qualified the supervisor is and whether effective supervision is taking place. Even if a person is qualified to
perform a task, supervision acts as a control to minimize risk. This may simply be someone checking what is being done to ensure it is being
done correctly. The higher the risk, the more the supervisor needs to be focused on observing and checking. A supervisor who is actively
involved in a task (doing something) is easily distracted and should not be considered an effective safety observer in moderate to high-risk
conditions.
PLANNING
Planning and preparation should consider how much information you have, how clear it is, and how much time you have to plan the evolution or
evaluate the situation.
TEAM SELECTION
Team selection should consider the qualifications and experience level of the individuals used for the specific event/evolution. Individuals may
need to be replaced during the vent/evolution and the experience level of the new team members should be assessed.
TEAM FITNESS
Team fitness should consider the physical and mental state of the crew. This is a function of the amount and quality of rest a crewmember has
had. Quality of rest should consider how the ship rides, its habitability, potential sleep length, and any interruptions. Fatigue normally becomes a
factor after 18 hours without rest; however, lack of quality sleep builds a deficit that worsens the effects of fatigue.
ENVIRONMENT
Environment should consider factors affecting personnel performance as well as the performance of the asset or resource. This includes, but is
not limited to, time of day, temperature, humidity, precipitation, wind and sea conditions, proximity of aerial/navigational hazards and other
exposures (e.g., oxygen deficiency, toxic chemicals, and/or injury from falls and sharp objects).
EVENT or EVOLUTION COMPLEXITY
Event/Evolution complexity should consider both the required time and the situation. Generally, the longer one is exposed to a hazard, the
greater are the risks. However, each circumstance is unique. For example, more iterations of an evolution can increase the opportunity for a loss
to occur, but may have the positive effect of improving the proficiency of the team, thus possibly decreasing the chance of error. This would
depend upon the experience level of the team. The situation includes considering how long the environmental conditions will remain stable and
the complexity of the work. Assign a risk code of 0 (For No Risk) through 10 (For Maximum Risk) to each of the six elements below.
Supervision
Planning
Team Selection
Team Fitness
Environment
Event/Evolution Complexity
Total Risk Score
The mission risk can be visualized using the colors of a traffic light. If the total risk value falls in the GREEN ZONE (1-23), risk is
rated as low. If the total risk value falls in the AMBER ZONE (24-44), risk is moderate and you should consider adopting
procedures to minimize the risk. If the total value falls in the RED ZONE (45-60), you should implement measures to reduce the
risk prior to starting the event or evolution.
GAR Evaluation Scale
Color Coding the Level 0f Risk
0 23 44 60
The ability to assign numerical values or “color codes” to hazards using the GAR Model is not the most important part of risk
assessment.[/b]
Alasgun":2zy2ua8h said:
Way ahead of you Alasgun---had my hip waders before starting with the bear and cowboys, switched to chest highs after it got to snakes and whips.
Glad we're having some fun with this thread, but I do appreciate all those that have contributed excellent serious thoughts on this subject and we're all better off for it.
Jay
Captains Cat
New member
Apparently, no one is really sure. This out of quoteland.com:
-----------------------------------
Though, this is another one of those quotes that demonstrates the unreliability, sometimes, to absolutely pin down the source. I am suspicious of the Shedd attribution, because even though he was a respected theologian, a Calvinist, and an author, all the attributions for him say that "he said." Well, if he wrote so much, why all of a sudden is he known for this quote that "he said."
When you search for the first part of the quote, almost all attributions go to William Shedd. When you search for the last part of the quote, all of a sudden you see tons of attributions to a John A. Shedd, and I cannot find out anything about this person.
If you look at the website I've included about Grace Hopper, it seems to me this is the best reference for a solid attribution available; again, on the Internet. Someone with some hardcopy resources might be able to source it better. Oh, and the saying varies between harbour, harbor, dock, and port. (Geez, did I get all over this or what?)
"A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for," said Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper.
http://niagara.rivier.edu/students/mnev ... hopper.htm
A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for. Grace Brewster Murray Hopper. (The use of the word "bug" is also due to Grace Hopper. She traced a computer problem to a dead bug in the hardware and taped that bug into her notebook.)
http://niagara.rivier.edu/students/mnev ... hopper.htm
A ship in a harbour is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." - great nineteenth-century theologian, William Shedd
A ship in a harbour is safe, but that is not what ships are for. John A. Shedd.
A ship in port is safe, but that is not what ships are built for. -- Benazir Bhutto
"A ship in the harbor is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."
-- GRANT M. BRIGHT
Ships Are Safe in the Harbour (poem, author unknown)
All I live for is now
All I stand for is where and how
All I wish for are magic moments
As I sail through change
My resolve remains the same
What I chose are magic moments
Because ships are safe in the harbour
But that is not what ships are made for
The mind could stretch much further
But it seems that is not what our minds are trained for
We call for random order
You can't control Mother nature's daughter
Ships are safe in the harbour
But that is not what ships are built for
The witch hunter roams
The scary thing is that he's not alone
He's trying to down my magic moments
As we sail through change
Ride the wind of a silent rage
And sing laments of magic moments
----------------------------------------------------------
I prefer to think RADM Hopper was the originator. I knew her, not very well but worked with her on several projects. She used to give a great lecture, going around handing out what she called "nanoseconds", pieces of hookup wire about 9" long, or the distance a signal would travel in a nanosecond. Indeed, she is the originator of the word "bug" in geekspeak. A great lady and innovate Naval Officer.
Charlie
-----------------------------------
Though, this is another one of those quotes that demonstrates the unreliability, sometimes, to absolutely pin down the source. I am suspicious of the Shedd attribution, because even though he was a respected theologian, a Calvinist, and an author, all the attributions for him say that "he said." Well, if he wrote so much, why all of a sudden is he known for this quote that "he said."
When you search for the first part of the quote, almost all attributions go to William Shedd. When you search for the last part of the quote, all of a sudden you see tons of attributions to a John A. Shedd, and I cannot find out anything about this person.
If you look at the website I've included about Grace Hopper, it seems to me this is the best reference for a solid attribution available; again, on the Internet. Someone with some hardcopy resources might be able to source it better. Oh, and the saying varies between harbour, harbor, dock, and port. (Geez, did I get all over this or what?)
"A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for," said Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper.
http://niagara.rivier.edu/students/mnev ... hopper.htm
A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for. Grace Brewster Murray Hopper. (The use of the word "bug" is also due to Grace Hopper. She traced a computer problem to a dead bug in the hardware and taped that bug into her notebook.)
http://niagara.rivier.edu/students/mnev ... hopper.htm
A ship in a harbour is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." - great nineteenth-century theologian, William Shedd
A ship in a harbour is safe, but that is not what ships are for. John A. Shedd.
A ship in port is safe, but that is not what ships are built for. -- Benazir Bhutto
"A ship in the harbor is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."
-- GRANT M. BRIGHT
Ships Are Safe in the Harbour (poem, author unknown)
All I live for is now
All I stand for is where and how
All I wish for are magic moments
As I sail through change
My resolve remains the same
What I chose are magic moments
Because ships are safe in the harbour
But that is not what ships are made for
The mind could stretch much further
But it seems that is not what our minds are trained for
We call for random order
You can't control Mother nature's daughter
Ships are safe in the harbour
But that is not what ships are built for
The witch hunter roams
The scary thing is that he's not alone
He's trying to down my magic moments
As we sail through change
Ride the wind of a silent rage
And sing laments of magic moments
----------------------------------------------------------
I prefer to think RADM Hopper was the originator. I knew her, not very well but worked with her on several projects. She used to give a great lecture, going around handing out what she called "nanoseconds", pieces of hookup wire about 9" long, or the distance a signal would travel in a nanosecond. Indeed, she is the originator of the word "bug" in geekspeak. A great lady and innovate Naval Officer.
Charlie
dogon dory
New member
Sorry, Folks - Post Deleted By Author
Pat Anderson
New member
I love it - "Prudence and Leaving the Dock" is probably not where I'd think to look about advice on handling rattlesnakes!
On the whole deal, though, without preparation and coping skills, you can get in a LOT of trouble in places where help is not readily available. And I'm the guy who can't get the damned lug nut off the trailer in my own driveway! So put me down in the "needs a safety net" category. If I had gone through Ford's Terror like Jay, Daydream would probably still be there with the bow forever stuck in the bottom!
On the whole deal, though, without preparation and coping skills, you can get in a LOT of trouble in places where help is not readily available. And I'm the guy who can't get the damned lug nut off the trailer in my own driveway! So put me down in the "needs a safety net" category. If I had gone through Ford's Terror like Jay, Daydream would probably still be there with the bow forever stuck in the bottom!
marvin4239
New member
I agree the story of Shackleton's voyage is fascinating. I've read several accounts of it. They have a story on it from time to time on the history channel. He had a fascinating life. There was a guy a while back that built a replica of the dory he used to sail to get help and retraced his voyage. Another good read is Fatal North about Charles Francis Hall's attempt to discover the North Pole. Sorry to drift off topic so to speak
"Endurance" is also one of our favorites. As good as it is-I've read it twice. My favorite is still the "The Curve of Time" by M Wylie Blanche. Can't believe nobody else here has read it. Especially those in the Northwest. This to me was the ulitmate in prudence or the lack of it. This is an account of a Mother her Children and many summers of Adventure in the lower Inland Passage, that the most extreme among us would no doubt shy away from today. And the less resourceful only cringe.
Jay
Jay
Pat Anderson
New member
Jay - I am a huge Curve of Time fan...bought my copy at a used book store in Gig Harbor, could not put it down! I kept wondering when she was going to encounter engine trouble, and then she did - and fixed it herself. I'll bet she could have handled the lug nut too!
Hunkydory":16i3fen6 said:
Pat----Finally someone else that has read and enjoyed this as much as us.
Jo-Lee and I are not much for cruising where there are very many other boats, but if we ever do cruise the Lower Inland Passage it will be with that book in hand and imagining Blanchet her children and that little boat in fog, current and bad weather with no gps, radar ect. What a person she was. Her description of the night terrors, that we too have experienced was an unbelievable parallel of our own and I imagine many others who have put themselves and others they care about the most at risk to live a dream few others can understand.
Fortunately even if most of us couldn't cope with her life of adventure-most of us can enjoy going along with her as she carries us back in time by reading her book.
Jay
Jo-Lee and I are not much for cruising where there are very many other boats, but if we ever do cruise the Lower Inland Passage it will be with that book in hand and imagining Blanchet her children and that little boat in fog, current and bad weather with no gps, radar ect. What a person she was. Her description of the night terrors, that we too have experienced was an unbelievable parallel of our own and I imagine many others who have put themselves and others they care about the most at risk to live a dream few others can understand.
Fortunately even if most of us couldn't cope with her life of adventure-most of us can enjoy going along with her as she carries us back in time by reading her book.
Jay
I love "Curve of Time". My favorite parts were the vivid description of the burial trees the natives used for so many generations on the little remote islands -- how eery that must have been; the older son, tired of scrapping for sleeping space amongst his siblings on the boat, fabbed up a collapesable sleeping hammock out of a beach-scrounged commercial fishing net; and when the whole family did the mountain climb and got mis-oriented way up high in the fog amongst precipitous cliff faces (I think they had to spend an emergency night up there?) - all of which reminded me of things I've done or would like to have done. I read it right before taking my family to Echo Bay (34 miles NE from Port McNeil from the North end of Vancouver Is., B.C.) . Once up there, we saw several of the midden heap beaches of crushed clamshells from ancient Indian villages, and still the beaches are snowy white...... how many years would it take to accumulate so many clamshells from eating that could withstand so many windy winters... and still last. Very Humbling. C.W.
The Incredible Voyage, The most unbelievable sailer I have ever read. Tristan Jones. Talk about adventure, this guy was insane. And if this book was not enough to convince everyone, read "Ice" He had written about 15 books or more. All true, but maybe a little embellished.
captd
captd
terraplane
New member
I met Grace Hopper in the late 80's. I believe she was a Vassar graduate, and I taught there from 74 to 93...my career position. Admiral Hopper came to talk about her computer work at the time when Vassar was networking the whole campus and deciding between IBM, COMPAQ, and Apple..(Apple was chosen). As I remember her she was funny, dry, and brilliant.
terraplane":2culvjzs said:
This from Wikepedia
"She graduated Phi Beta Kappa from Vassar College with a Bachelor's degree in mathematics and physics in 1928 and pursued her graduate education at Yale University, where she received a Master's degree in those subjects in 1930. In 1934 she received a Ph.D. in mathematics. Her dissertation was titled New Types of Irreducibility Criteria[2]. Hopper began teaching mathematics at Vassar in 1931, and by 1941 she was an associate professor."
What an interesting person she! A google search yields a great deal about her extraordinary accomplishments in academia, and the Navy. To top it off, she was from New Jersey (of course).
Whether the story of Admiral Hopper originating the statement of ships and harbors is true or apochryphal, it certainly describes her remarkable life.
"Ships are safe in the harbour
But that is not what ships are built for."