Prudence and leaving the dock

When we lived in the Bay Area and raced dinghy sailboats there as well as on the ocean and inland lakes, we sometimes went out in conditions that were quite frankly, pretty scary!

The commitment to compete, and not just for the day but for a Season Championship, made me want to complete every race no matter what the conditions were.

Often the Race Committee was made up of keelboat sailors that didn't know the limits of (keel-less) dinghies, and we would get in over out heads a bit, but we somehow always managed to right the capsized boat and get home.

Sometimes the heavy weather would come up during a race, and you just had to deal with what developed. White knuckled sailing, it was!

We'd find ourselves coming around the weather mark and finding the boat planing downwind on the main and back-winded jib alone, and know it was time to hoist the spinnaker and get into the trapeze!

A 230 lb. boat with 150 square feet of sail in 25 mph winds and planing downwind over 2-3 feet or more of wind chop made for a real test of helmsmanship. Later, back at the dock, we would somehow remember these scary rides as thrilling!

In retrospect, this was bad judgment, of course, but we were younger and basically pretty foolish and just acted like we were immortal anyway!

Joe. :teeth
 
dogon dory":1d44g2pe said:
The last couple posts are good examples of prudent thrill seeking. Individual sports and/or organized events with people of like minds. Per El and Bill's post, people with similar tolerance for risk. People on race committee boats etc. know what they are getting themselves into and do so voluntarily. Sky diving is another good one. Nobody else is put at risk if things go wrong.

Except the person on the ground that the skydiver "drops in" on! :shock: Oh, and the main risk to those on the committee boat is from being centerpunched by an out of control racer. :roll:
 
dogon dory":fm28pd2k said:
One problem with "thrill seekers" is that they rarely take time to consider how they may endanger other people.

Folks don't have to fall into the classification of "thrill seekers" to create an endangerment to those that are called upon to rescue them when "things go south". Example .....when folks are advised to evacute their residence due to rising flood waters, but don't, then plead for someone to rescue them just prior to their being swept downstream. (It is not difficult to come up with other examples...ie: fires, hurricaines etc).

Last year I was involved as a rescuer during flood waters. Had the folks, evacuated when they were first advised, the operation would have been accomplished in an hour instead of the 6-7 hour time frame that it eventually took and it created a risk for all involved. I've also been involved in rescuing folks that drive past road closed signs and became stranded in current intense flood waters.

Bottom line.....folks need to think beyond themselves.
 
It is one thing to be caught out in bad weather. It is another to go out when the weather is bad. When I was learning to fly, I asked the instructor about the higher ratio of accidents in general aviation. He said that many of the accidents occurred, because the people did or were doing something they knew that they shouldn't be doing. I may gain experience in bad weather, but I don't push it either.
 
This has been an absolute great thread so far. Good info for sure. Thanks for all of your insights and just plain old common horse sense. Sometimes one needs to be reminded of it.

Children always wear PFD's on my boat but not the adults including me.

My early New Years resolution is: TO WEAR MY PFD EACH AND EVERY TIME OUT. Also to encourage my adult passengers to do the same.

I also do not go along side the cabin to get to the foredeck.

As one of you said.......my time is running out and I do not want to do anything foolish to speed it up.

Keep this thread going as it is real enlightening.
 
No mention from the contributors to this thread about the classic cruising novel, “The Curve of Time” by M. Wylie Blanchet speaks volumes to what most have centered on in there discussions in this thread. A more balanced view may come out of reading this true story. I again highly recommend it especially for those more interested in a wilderness type cruise and self reliance. It may even allow you fishermen and day cruisers to see where we explorers and seekers of adventure are coming from and what you may think as thrill seeking is pretty lite weight compared to the travels of this lady and just her children on a small 25 foot cruiser with only ½ inch protection on bottom and sides. And her children when grown had nothing but wonderful thoughts about their experiences in their youth with there mother.

Most of the comments to this thread were directed to the literal meaning of using prudence when leaving the dock into varying conditions and were answered for the most part if in doubt don’t. Not bad advice, but just a bit simplistic in my opinion. If we had followed that advice it would have taken a summer instead of a few weeks to complete our last cruise. For those unaware the travelogue with photos in the Grand Adventure forum titled “2007 Alaska northern inland passage wilderness cruise” was a description of our most recent wilderness cruise. When I originally started this thread the prudence in leaving the dock was meant as a present physical thing and at the same time a metaphor for leaving on an adventure.

Jeff, we have zero interest in being in our c-dory boat in the conditions you described for good wind surfing. In fact we have zero interest in being on the open ocean at all except to access wilderness areas along the coast. But when deciding to go on a true wilderness cruise the chance of encountering severe conditions on the wilderness coast has to be accepted or you don’t go. Preparation can cover only so much. On this years cruise there was no fun in the extreme conditions we found ourselves in off the wilderness coast of Chichagof Island, Alaska and no thrill in the experience at the time. We were only willing to accept these risk in order to access the inlets, bays and rivers inside the outer coast. In doing such a cruise the risk level is much higher than leaving a dock on a bad weather day to fish or day cruise where help is readily available. To us it is worth the risk and the very reason we have a c-dory boat. We realize our attitude and reasons for boating is different than the norm. The c-dory to us is a comfortable upgrade over the canoe and RIB and used for the same purpose and that would be to explore the most wilderness areas we can only inhibited by our own personal risk assessment.

In our travels it is true we may put someone else at risk over something unforeseen or even a poor decision on our part. We have nothing but respect and admiration for the ones doing the rescue work, but it is there choice and the vocation they choose. If someday we have to be rescued the bill for the most part has already been prepaid. We have two sons who served in the Coast Guard and the eldest was killed while on active duty. And I have served as soldier, sheriff’s deputy and fireman. Even if our sons and I hadn’t made our contributions we would feel the same. I would feel bad if a poor decision let to a rescuer being injured or worse, but I don’t consider just attempting a cruise of this nature to be a poor decision.

My advice to those with limited boating experience who have the desire to go on a boating adventure. Learn all you can about the area you wish to go, the equipment you need and practice with your boat what you can in relationship to where you want to go. Gain all the information you can from this site and then don’t let excessive caution and fear override your desire to see, do and experience a “real” adventure, because if you wait until you think your totally qualified , that time may very well never arrive leaving you old and full of regret. If our ability to go boating ends today it will be with no regrets. Can you answer the same? If so great!! If not, how about starting a plan to actually make your dreams become reality. Then share this reality with the rest of us here. With us pushing 3000 members, there are way to few written accounts of adventure on this site.

One of the many reasons I post accounts of our adventures here is to show others what can be accomplished with very limited to moderate boating experience. We have now cruised over 4000 miles on the Inland Passage of which a good part was out of the main cruising channels and in several instances have taken our c-dory where few other boats have ever been. If we could start this process with no boating experience other than a canoe and RIB at the age of 54 think what you could do if a similar desire or passion is in you.

Dogon Dan, Jo-lee and I have been sharing adventures since she was l5 and me l7 and the only reason I carry a sat phone is if I should by some means strand her in one of these areas we explore alone. When I went totally alone on my many mountaineering and other adventures, I knew there would be no rescue, so tried to plan accordingly.. I know this is hard for many to understand, but some of us are born to the absolute need for these kind of experiences and I really think my spirit if not my body would die with out them.

Jay
 
Hi Brats

My deciding factor for safety before getting underway is usually wind forecast. If over 25 knots I will usually do something else. Your local conditions may have other variables like tide, current or limited visibility that are also main considerations.

When I see the whitecaps moving in, I pick up my gear and head home. If I were traveling then I would duck into a safe harbor.

Many of your contributions are right on. I even accept your ideas of boating in more extreme conditions or at night. I feel that those of you who are comfortable in the rough stuff or who are out at night also have enough respect for it. But you are experienced and that contributes greatly to your success.

Jay, I agree with most of your last post accept the part about your prepaid dues and a rescuers obligation. I know you are a prudent boater so I hope you never need assistance but your dues gain you no additional rights. The rescuers of which many are volunteers, have familys to go home to. Most are always ready to go regardless of the conditions and if it were the rescuers choice I am sure they will always try. But most decisions to send out rescue teams are made by management and their main concern is the safety of their crew and equipment not the distressed.
So if you are in deep doo doo you are probably going to have to self rescue. Hope your dues then are your experiences and you safely get back.

Safe boating

1tuberider
Jeff
 
Well said Bill. I've had more than one person tell me I shouldn't go out alone and they are probably right but as the old saying goes "I'd rather die Living than Live Dying."
 
Hi Folks,

As I see it, life should be lived. Adventure is part of life. To me playing football and playing hockey as a goalie in my youth are both part of the adventure of our lives. Both have a part of danger, and both have a feeling of accomplishment after doing them.

Later on, we can't do those things,and our bodies may not take it. I once went back to college to play in an Alumni soccer game. It didn't take me long to figure that I no longer had the ability to play. I spent the whole time thinking about heart attacks. So we aim for different adventures.

I once went to a hurricane party in 1960. Great adventure. I would not do it again.

I also took INN-THE-WATER across Nantucket Sound in 25 to 35 Knot winds. I left New Bedford at 0600 after attending my first C-Dory reunion. I had to get back to work, and the weather report said that the conditions were going to get worse. So when I went past Cape Poge on the tip of Martha"s Vineyard Island, I just kept going. There were high waves, but not breaking waves. The waves were on my port bow, so I played them. I even went over a shoal and watched the fathometer go from 11 feet to 4 feet. I raised the engine, then back to 11 feet. When I got to the mouth of Nantucket Harbor, the waves were starting to build up. I ran half way up the back of the waves and then slid back. Very easy run. I made it.

I weighed the pluses, a reliable boat and engine (4 stroke Yamaha 75 HP),against the negatives, a bilge pump not working.

Conclusion. I am glad that I did it. Would I do it again, no way.

These things are what life is all about.

Thank you for letting me share.

Fred
 
Here is a picture I took of my husband flying over C-Run last Saturday. He is flying alone, I am boating alone. I have been boating, mostly solo, for almost 50 years. Cordell has been flying for over 25 years, mostly solo. If we each had a co-pilot when we went flying/boating, we would be safer. But, we both fly/boat safely. That doesn't mean either of us will not get into trouble, but it means we get to do what we love to do.

IMGP1283.sized.jpg


Robbi
 
Jeff, I didn't even hint that the dues paid entitled us to extra rights. I graduated from the Mendocino County, Calif Sheriff's Academy and then worked only as a unpaid volunteer deputy also went through all the training to become a rated volunteer fireman. So my point was exactly this with sons who have served and one gave all and my personal volunteer involvement in risking self for others I fully understand what their job entails and the sacrifices they are willing to make and would do every thing I can within my limits to make sure we don't need rescuing. This includes being as prudent as possible in our definition of the word. These limits do not include not making the adventure to prevent the possible need for assistance. I fully agree and that should have been readily apparent from our background I don't take lightly the involvement of risk from others as a back up for our lifestyle choices and am very displeased when I see it in the actions of others.

Dogon Dan, Thanks for an excellent post and taking us to the woodshed in a very thoughtful way. Agree fully with the points you made.

Dan is right our background prepared us to be able to do the things we have on a c-dory boat, where many with similar boating experience may well have ended in disaster for themselves and the people who may have had to come to their rescue. Its not don't follow your dreams, but do it in a process that the dreams don't turn to nightmares. Agree fully with the baby steps and if you find you don't handle doing the right thing under pressure find a new dream or be prepared to suffer the consequence.

Jay
 
For those of you in the Pacific NW, the November 7 issue of Nor'westing magazine has an excellent article on our topic, titled "Weather or Not to Go" by USCG Petty Officer First Class Aaron Bretz. Well worth reading as part of any potential ocean adventures. Cheers! Mike.
 
Prudence...

When we shoved off from our dock today, the wind was SE@23G30. There have been some posts earlier talking about go/no go decisions based on weather. Those decisions have to be tempered with some local knowledge. This place is a windsurfing Mecca. Our average wind speed is 17 (making us windier than Chicago, the "Windy City" :wink: ). It would have been snotty going out into the Gulf (small craft advisories for the Gulf and the bay), with waves predicted to be between 6 and 8 feet, chance of thunderstorms. Instead, we chose to head up the ICW. We will get to the same place, and have a much better ride. If someone didn't go out because the wind was above 20 and SCA, there would be a lot of days here that you wouldn't go out... and you'd miss some nice boating.

I don't feel we were reckless. We were running with the waves (2'-3' at times, generally less), and had a rather pleasant ride. We discussed it before we left the dock and agreed, "If it's not fun, we'll come back." We'll do the same tomorrow. Our intended destination is about 150 miles from home, and some home-type obligations and timing were factored into our decision to go.

It isn't always a clear choice... but this boat also weighs in on the decision making.

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
Here is another example of it not always being so easy as–“if in doubt don’t”. This is an excerpt from our 2004 Alaska cruise and roadtrip written up in the Grand Adventures Forum under the thread title “A Hunkydory Adventure on a 22 cruiser”

Quote
7-7-04 Dad, Jo-Lee and I to San Francisco Bay. Wanted to go under the Golden Gate Bridge and to where My Dad was stationed on Treasure Island after coming back from Guadalcanal, while in the Marines, during WW11. He wanted to see where He use to fish while on the island. Launched Hunkydory from Sausalito. There was small craft warning advisories at the entrance and in the bay, so we were concerned, but felt we could turn back if necessary. Went out under the Golden Gate and around the San Francisco water front. Circled Alcatraz and Treasure Island. Hunkydory and us do well in rough water. Very fun, memorable, and exciting day. 32 miles today on water.

As you can see we were in doubt, but made the decision to go anyway with a turnabout plan in place. My dad was 80 years old at the time. And on the cruise spent most of the time in the cockpit hanging on with one hand to starboard side cockpit entrance grabrail and using the other hand to video the experience. He said it was just like riding a rough horse. I didn’t like him back there, but after no reception on suggestions didn’t have the heart to tell him he had to come into the cabin. I again have no regrets on either one of these decisions of the day. It turned out to be one of the better days in lives of all of us.

Jay
 
C-Brats,
Very interesting thread. As I read each post I was impressed by the intelligent thought put into the process of when to go or not to go, as well safety concerns when going. It brings to mind the other side of the coin that show just the opposite. Back a few years ago we were birthed next to a guy that cruised alone on a regular bases. he would go to the Bahamas ( Abacos) by himself. His boat was probably about a 35 ft'er called the "Emeral Cay" When he decided to head for home , instead of going straight across to Palm Beach he would set his auto pilot to head directly to Cape Canaveral. After partying all the time he was in the Bahamas , he needed to catch up on his sleep, which he proceeded to do. I don't know if he set his alarm clock or not. The me that has to be the dumbest boater I have ever met. I know for a fact that two boats can try to occupy the same space at the same time in open ocean. The biggest one always wins. It has happened to me twice. Where we would have been run over if not at the helm . And know two other friends that hit and slide down the side of a huge freighter. Fools seem to have several lives, like cats..

captd
 
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