dogon dory
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Sorry, Folks - Post Deleted By Author
paper charts vs: navionic chips
- Thread starter patrick and linda
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journey on
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DogOn Dory,
You're absolutely correct: the Captain is part of the crew, and Judy keeps pointing this out. Also, the captain reports to whatever admiral is on board, and Judy also points this out. My point was that the captain didn't pay attention to navigation, but made a decision in spite of "old style" navigation. and threatened to court martial any one who didn't follow him: the other 6 destroyers. some did do navigation and tried to slow down or go out. They did get RDF signals, though not consistently. I wasn't there, but there is a good book on it. And it was on Honda reef, a good Spanish name.
If you do risk management for a living, you know about biasing estimates so you don't hit what you're trying to miss. In spacecraft, one biases a trajectory, so that, in spite of all the errors, you miss the planet (for a flyby; if you're trying to orbit the thing, that's another story.) The destroyer captain just picked the short course, ignored navigation inputs and lost his ass and career.
Nevertheless, a point of the tale, is that the "new" navigation came about so abruptly, and is so dramatic a change that anyone who hasn't done the old stuff can't understand the problem. Fog? Just turn on the radar. Where are you? Just look at the GPS, and it better be within a few feet. We took celestial navigation before we went to Tahiti. After we finished the course GPS went from $5000 to $300. We took 2 ea. I took one sight, near the Equator; it was such a pain in the rear, I never did again. Just sold the sextant at a swap meet. And it was just in the late 90's that the random error was removed from GPS and less time than that for WAAS. And cheap small boat radars aren't that old either. We finally bought one after getting stuck in the fog in the Santa Barbara Channel. Ever try to dodge a tanker in the fog? And figure out how to steer for Oxnard? When you haven't been paying attention?
Anyway the navigation problems have dramatically changed in the last few years.
Boris
You're absolutely correct: the Captain is part of the crew, and Judy keeps pointing this out. Also, the captain reports to whatever admiral is on board, and Judy also points this out. My point was that the captain didn't pay attention to navigation, but made a decision in spite of "old style" navigation. and threatened to court martial any one who didn't follow him: the other 6 destroyers. some did do navigation and tried to slow down or go out. They did get RDF signals, though not consistently. I wasn't there, but there is a good book on it. And it was on Honda reef, a good Spanish name.
If you do risk management for a living, you know about biasing estimates so you don't hit what you're trying to miss. In spacecraft, one biases a trajectory, so that, in spite of all the errors, you miss the planet (for a flyby; if you're trying to orbit the thing, that's another story.) The destroyer captain just picked the short course, ignored navigation inputs and lost his ass and career.
Nevertheless, a point of the tale, is that the "new" navigation came about so abruptly, and is so dramatic a change that anyone who hasn't done the old stuff can't understand the problem. Fog? Just turn on the radar. Where are you? Just look at the GPS, and it better be within a few feet. We took celestial navigation before we went to Tahiti. After we finished the course GPS went from $5000 to $300. We took 2 ea. I took one sight, near the Equator; it was such a pain in the rear, I never did again. Just sold the sextant at a swap meet. And it was just in the late 90's that the random error was removed from GPS and less time than that for WAAS. And cheap small boat radars aren't that old either. We finally bought one after getting stuck in the fog in the Santa Barbara Channel. Ever try to dodge a tanker in the fog? And figure out how to steer for Oxnard? When you haven't been paying attention?
Anyway the navigation problems have dramatically changed in the last few years.
Boris
Boris: Dan already made my point--the commander of the squadron in error made the decision to take a course based on in-experience in the use of the RDF--(a relitatively in-accurate technology, adding in that they didn't take into account the recripicol error). Basic that the commander/captain is responsiable for the mistakes made.
Marooned: The electronic U S coastal charts on the web can be accessed:
http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/enc/download.htm
There are a number of programs (outlined on the sites) which will read these charts.
I took the easy route after downloading some of them--and purchased a DVD for $39 which has all of these, plus the Corp of engineers charts and a viewing program.
Currently one of the best deals is a 2 DVD set at: http://www.managingthewaterway.com/charts.htm
All available NOAA Raster Navigational Charts (RNCs), organized by region:
2. All available NOAA vector Electronic Navigational Charts (ENCs).
3. All available USACE vector Inland Electronic Navigation Charts (IENCs).
4. Free and trial versions of PC and Macintosh charting and navigation software.
5. Government publications, reference texts, and nautical calculators in searchable
Adobe Acrobat PDF format including:
• American Practical Navigator (Bowditch)
• Atlas of Pilot Charts North Atlantic Pub. 106
• Canadian Coast Guard Radio Aids to Navigation
• Chart No. 1
• Distances Between Ports Pub. 151
• Distances Between U.S. Ports (and a number of other publications)
Plus comes with Sea Clear (shareware navigation program)
I keep the DVD data on my hard drive, plus carry the DVD, if for some reason the data were to be lost. It is handy for looking up places we talk about on this and other forums, as well as Distances between US ports for planing purposes.
You can obtain the US topographical charts on CD and DVD. There are some interactive Topographic maps free on the internet, but I don't believe to the extent or detail that the nautical charts are available--maybe Dave has some better information on downloadable or cheap topo maps. To my knowlege Fugawi is one of the best of the topo's at $50 for the entire US at 1: 100,000 scale. I believe that it is considerably more expensive to get the more detailed 1: 24,000 scale maps for each state.
Another good source we haven't really fully explored yet, is Google Earth. I find it very helpful when planning--and even have copied screen shots for areas I want to explore. Also in rivers which are not well charted Google Earth gives some very good information--and one can make up their own charts.
Marooned: The electronic U S coastal charts on the web can be accessed:
http://nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/enc/download.htm
There are a number of programs (outlined on the sites) which will read these charts.
I took the easy route after downloading some of them--and purchased a DVD for $39 which has all of these, plus the Corp of engineers charts and a viewing program.
Currently one of the best deals is a 2 DVD set at: http://www.managingthewaterway.com/charts.htm
All available NOAA Raster Navigational Charts (RNCs), organized by region:
2. All available NOAA vector Electronic Navigational Charts (ENCs).
3. All available USACE vector Inland Electronic Navigation Charts (IENCs).
4. Free and trial versions of PC and Macintosh charting and navigation software.
5. Government publications, reference texts, and nautical calculators in searchable
Adobe Acrobat PDF format including:
• American Practical Navigator (Bowditch)
• Atlas of Pilot Charts North Atlantic Pub. 106
• Canadian Coast Guard Radio Aids to Navigation
• Chart No. 1
• Distances Between Ports Pub. 151
• Distances Between U.S. Ports (and a number of other publications)
Plus comes with Sea Clear (shareware navigation program)
I keep the DVD data on my hard drive, plus carry the DVD, if for some reason the data were to be lost. It is handy for looking up places we talk about on this and other forums, as well as Distances between US ports for planing purposes.
You can obtain the US topographical charts on CD and DVD. There are some interactive Topographic maps free on the internet, but I don't believe to the extent or detail that the nautical charts are available--maybe Dave has some better information on downloadable or cheap topo maps. To my knowlege Fugawi is one of the best of the topo's at $50 for the entire US at 1: 100,000 scale. I believe that it is considerably more expensive to get the more detailed 1: 24,000 scale maps for each state.
Another good source we haven't really fully explored yet, is Google Earth. I find it very helpful when planning--and even have copied screen shots for areas I want to explore. Also in rivers which are not well charted Google Earth gives some very good information--and one can make up their own charts.
Thanks, Bob
I haven't had any problem downloading the charts. Its the viewer I could not find. I searched the NOAA site for a couple of rainy hours this afternoon, but no mention of software to read them. Microsoft told me to download a dictionary software program?? Thanks for the links.
I use google earth also, most of the coast has high enough definition that you can even find the boat ramps, etc.
I haven't had any problem downloading the charts. Its the viewer I could not find. I searched the NOAA site for a couple of rainy hours this afternoon, but no mention of software to read them. Microsoft told me to download a dictionary software program?? Thanks for the links.
I use google earth also, most of the coast has high enough definition that you can even find the boat ramps, etc.
dogon dory
New member
Sorry, Folks - Post Deleted By Author
This same question comes up peroidically on other forums. Recently on THT--several delivary skippers said that they used paper charts--one didn't. Most professional mariners have paper charts aboard. There is a data base of countries and if they allow electronic charts (March 07). As I read the site, ECDIS is not satisfactory for US vessels, that paper charts are required. For foreign vessels whose country allows electronic charting as primary navigation, redundant plotter, with reduantant power supply, with an appropiate folio of appropiate paper charts are still required. I was discussing this with a friend who skippers a lage tug and he does depend on the electronic charting.
If anything, I find that the electronic navigation lulls folks into thinking how "easy" boating is--and they don't learn the basic skills. But that is just an opinion--and may be biased. What I have noticed is that at one point it seemed like many people were in boating for the "long haul"--mainly because of the learning curve of navigation. Along with the experience in navigation, comes experience which increases the seamanship skills. Again--it is only dependant on the motivation of the individual. I see more people buying expensive first boats, going on a voyage, like the loop, and then getting out of boating.
I don't think that anyone can say that it is not easier to boat, with the new navigation tools. That doesn't mean that people don't still make dumb mistakes.. On the other hand, what good are paper charts if you don't know how to use them?
If anything, I find that the electronic navigation lulls folks into thinking how "easy" boating is--and they don't learn the basic skills. But that is just an opinion--and may be biased. What I have noticed is that at one point it seemed like many people were in boating for the "long haul"--mainly because of the learning curve of navigation. Along with the experience in navigation, comes experience which increases the seamanship skills. Again--it is only dependant on the motivation of the individual. I see more people buying expensive first boats, going on a voyage, like the loop, and then getting out of boating.
I don't think that anyone can say that it is not easier to boat, with the new navigation tools. That doesn't mean that people don't still make dumb mistakes.. On the other hand, what good are paper charts if you don't know how to use them?
Bob said,
I think this is really the question.
If someone is not going to learn how to navigate with paper charts and compass, then having them is not a backup. Those people should do what Dan does, have two or three different electronic navigation devices(chartplotter, computer program, handheld GPS), and learn how to use each of them.
That would provide them with backup security if any one or two goes down.
Dan,
after reading about your setup, I do agree that a chartplotter on 12volt ships power, a laptop on its own battery, and a handheld on internal batteries does provide three independent nav devices. They all depend on the GPS signal, but that is now somewhat stable and reliable.
The electronic devices can have problems with accuracy and I still think folks should learn something about charts;(including true vs magnetic north, age of the data on a chart, and horizontal datum), but redundant electronic charting may be acceptable.
Commercial shipping and ferrys use electronic systems that have a complete second duplicate system up and running at the same time as the primary.
The more you know about the information that determines your safety, the better.
I think this is really the question.
If someone is not going to learn how to navigate with paper charts and compass, then having them is not a backup. Those people should do what Dan does, have two or three different electronic navigation devices(chartplotter, computer program, handheld GPS), and learn how to use each of them.
That would provide them with backup security if any one or two goes down.
Dan,
after reading about your setup, I do agree that a chartplotter on 12volt ships power, a laptop on its own battery, and a handheld on internal batteries does provide three independent nav devices. They all depend on the GPS signal, but that is now somewhat stable and reliable.
The electronic devices can have problems with accuracy and I still think folks should learn something about charts;(including true vs magnetic north, age of the data on a chart, and horizontal datum), but redundant electronic charting may be acceptable.
Commercial shipping and ferrys use electronic systems that have a complete second duplicate system up and running at the same time as the primary.
The more you know about the information that determines your safety, the better.
dogon dory
New member
Sorry, Folks - Post Deleted By Author
Now me, I got paper charts from the south Oregon coast to north Alaska that came with the boat. They are in a box in the house somewhere. A few of them are under the berth cushion in the boat, along with a couple cruising atlases. I also have two stand-alone chartplotters on board and a hand-held GPS that is good for coordinates and little else. About the only reason I carry the charts is so Dusty doesn't catch me without them when I am up that way.
Plus I got one of them Blackberry phones the other day that has a GPS and Google maps and Google Earth and all that nerd stuff. After reading Les' suggestion on another thread to skip the magnetic compass on a new boat I am thinking about taking the Ritchie out so I have room to put a stand for the phone. That damn compass can't play music anyway.
Plus I got one of them Blackberry phones the other day that has a GPS and Google maps and Google Earth and all that nerd stuff. After reading Les' suggestion on another thread to skip the magnetic compass on a new boat I am thinking about taking the Ritchie out so I have room to put a stand for the phone. That damn compass can't play music anyway.
dogon dory
New member
Sorry, Folks - Post Deleted By Author
thataway":1eayn5ic said:
Bob – I use to be able to download the 1:24,000 and the 1:100,000 Topo maps for free on MapTech. It is no longer available and like you I can find several interactive sites with them but not down-loadable for free.
When they were free, you had to select each file individually and down load one at a time. It was too time consuming and too much data so I bought the files on CD. To get the complete set for Washington it cost $90 and had 1415-7.5 minute (1:24,000) charts, 40-30 minute (1:100,000) charts and was 6.76 Gigs in size. Oregon was similar.
The reader cost 20 to 30 dollars. You can zoom in or out and change the scale. You can do anything with them that you can do with nautical charts. You can also view the charts individually or scroll continuously with the charts stitched together.
The Washington maps has a major error in one of the 30 minute maps, so you have to use some common sense when using them, just like the nautical charts, but overall I find them very accurate and useful.
I also use Google Earth a lot but find http://maps.live.com/ to have much better photos than Google Earth, especially in the remote and rural areas.
________
Dave
Dave,
Thanks to the link to "live maps" I had not seen that one. In many places it is better than Google. It is interesting that at my home the Google Earth is better resolution, but that the aerial photo is 6 months older (I can tell by the progress done on a new home across the street from us)--but on Live Maps, my Daughter's home in Culver City is much clearer than on Google Earth--and also considerably newer than the photo of my home or Google Earth (by remodeling done).
These on line maps/aerials are really interesting. Our county is on GIS and each lot is outlined by the GIS system, the house value, the dates of sale, size and even layout of the houses are available, aerial overlay, and in some cases street level photos of the house are on the country web site.
Dan--definately our thought processes are molded by our experiences. It may depend on where a person boat. as to the degree of skills needed, Today I spent 4 hours (beautiful 73 degree afternoon) on the ICW just watching boaters. One 25 foot boat ran aground, even though there was a GPS antenna on the cabin top. I saw one 18 foot center console come very close to swamping because the skipper didn't handle a wake properly--and on the other hand, the skipper of the 50 foot sport fisher, really didn't have any business running his boat at max wake speed in that perticular congested area. I called him on the radio, warning of an pile driving rig being pushed by a skiff, where his wake would have caused substantial damage, and possiable injury. Fortunately he slowed to minimum wake speed and thanked me. I don't think he recognized the danger. A person can get in a very serious problem between Puget Sound and the San Juans or Marina Del Ray and Catalina, under certain conditions. A lot of safety comes back to common sense, but experience does help.
I have a lot better navigation gear aboard my C Dories than I ever had on any the the boats I voyaged on. Today, I would have exactly the same navigational gear on a 60 foot boat as I would on a C Dory. If I could afford it, perhaps the screens would be bigger, but probably not.
Thanks to the link to "live maps" I had not seen that one. In many places it is better than Google. It is interesting that at my home the Google Earth is better resolution, but that the aerial photo is 6 months older (I can tell by the progress done on a new home across the street from us)--but on Live Maps, my Daughter's home in Culver City is much clearer than on Google Earth--and also considerably newer than the photo of my home or Google Earth (by remodeling done).
These on line maps/aerials are really interesting. Our county is on GIS and each lot is outlined by the GIS system, the house value, the dates of sale, size and even layout of the houses are available, aerial overlay, and in some cases street level photos of the house are on the country web site.
Dan--definately our thought processes are molded by our experiences. It may depend on where a person boat. as to the degree of skills needed, Today I spent 4 hours (beautiful 73 degree afternoon) on the ICW just watching boaters. One 25 foot boat ran aground, even though there was a GPS antenna on the cabin top. I saw one 18 foot center console come very close to swamping because the skipper didn't handle a wake properly--and on the other hand, the skipper of the 50 foot sport fisher, really didn't have any business running his boat at max wake speed in that perticular congested area. I called him on the radio, warning of an pile driving rig being pushed by a skiff, where his wake would have caused substantial damage, and possiable injury. Fortunately he slowed to minimum wake speed and thanked me. I don't think he recognized the danger. A person can get in a very serious problem between Puget Sound and the San Juans or Marina Del Ray and Catalina, under certain conditions. A lot of safety comes back to common sense, but experience does help.
I have a lot better navigation gear aboard my C Dories than I ever had on any the the boats I voyaged on. Today, I would have exactly the same navigational gear on a 60 foot boat as I would on a C Dory. If I could afford it, perhaps the screens would be bigger, but probably not.
dogon dory
New member
Sorry, Folks - Post Deleted By Author
You might check the US DOT USCG Navigation Rules (ColRegs 72) Rule # 5 Look-out "Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means ...
I have seen many captains who ran aground because they were navigating by a TV screen. Someone has to be watching where they are going, other boats on the surface of the water, the height of bridges, and the color for depth of water. When you use a paper chart it requires more attention and work to the duties of navigation.
I will take Dave's challenge for navigating anywhere if we turn off the GPS signals vs my paper chart use. In the Gulf of Mexico we always say if you have no means of navigation just sail North and you will find land.
There are city boys who are looking at the tall buildings vs the country boys which are watching where they put their feet.
My boat's name is CHARITY, cause that is where all of my money goes.
I have seen many captains who ran aground because they were navigating by a TV screen. Someone has to be watching where they are going, other boats on the surface of the water, the height of bridges, and the color for depth of water. When you use a paper chart it requires more attention and work to the duties of navigation.
I will take Dave's challenge for navigating anywhere if we turn off the GPS signals vs my paper chart use. In the Gulf of Mexico we always say if you have no means of navigation just sail North and you will find land.
There are city boys who are looking at the tall buildings vs the country boys which are watching where they put their feet.
My boat's name is CHARITY, cause that is where all of my money goes.
dogon dory
New member
Sorry, Folks - Post Deleted By Author
patrick and linda
New member
my original question dealt with, purchasing one or the other, which system, paper of chip, would provide me with the best possible coverage.
i appreciate the responses, and as a result, have ordered the chip and was actually able to purchase this chip thru a c-brat'r, and at a savings, as well.
so, thanks to all.
have a greta day!
pat
i appreciate the responses, and as a result, have ordered the chip and was actually able to purchase this chip thru a c-brat'r, and at a savings, as well.
so, thanks to all.
have a greta day!
pat