paper charts vs: navionic chips

hey joel now i dont feel so bad about using a road atlas in canada last year ha ha .deffinatly agree with bolth u never know when electronics may crap out? /and besides u can sit coffortably any where u want with paper and enjoy plotting ur next course .....john
 
I can't imagine any reason to ever carry an empty wine bottle on a C-Dory. My advice would be to carry a full one (and here it wouldn't hurt to have several back-ups.)
 
Captains Cat":yfgk9q0b said:
capt. patrick campbell":yfgk9q0b said:
I'M LOADED WITH CHARTS, ELECTRONICS, SEXTON, CELL PHONE, MULTIPLE VHF'S,
PAT
Click to expand...

I'm fairly religious but wouldn't consider taking a ranking member of the church on a long cruise....
Oh, wait, maybe you meant sextant! :roll:
Charlie
Click to expand...

Wait Charlie.....perhaps it's not a religious connotation, maybe he meant that he has a TON of SEX on his boat.....wonder what those ladies look like?????
 
This is clearly out of hand! Seriously, we have a Raymarine C-80 chartplotter and a Garmin GPSMAP76 (AA batteries) backup. We have the MapTech Waterproof Chart Books for Puget Sound and the San Juans, and a few other chartbooks, like others say, in order to see the big picture. The problem with paper charts and compass, without a GPS, is that if you lose track of where you are at any point, and cannot recognize some landmarks to take bearings, you are SOL on knowing where you are...one forested shoreline or island looks pretty much like another. With two (or three, if you have a laptop system too) GPSes, we always know where we are unless the government decides to turn off the satellites. I cannot imagine anybody, given the choice of only paper charts and compass or GPS, choosing the former. But of course I state the obvious, am preaching to the choir, etc. etc. etc.
 
Pat, I had to laugh--but not at your expense--we have all become so used to the GPS and accurate positions. Many of us sailed with no electronic position finding items the majority of our lives.

There are many clues by looking at charts. One of the reasons that land contours, and in some charts, and sailing guides have sketches or photos (more recent) of featured land masses is so that the sailor can look at a land contour and discern his location. If one can read a topo chart, he can tell very accurately where he is, by range and bearings with the hand bearing compass (you do have a hand bearing compass?--we keep one in our dinghy bag), as well as the binoculars' compass. When you have to navigate by coastal features, you use the compass and tri-angulate. It only seems like all of the coast is like another part--the chart gives the clues.

Although we had GPS (Lat and Long) without chart plotters, when we cruised for 3 years in the PNW in the mid 90's, we really didn't use it much unless there was fog, or we had a crossing where we could not see the land features. We were used to using the charts. Yes, having the accurate lat and long instantanously was a real plus. Before GPS, there was Sat Nav, where you got an accurate Lat. Long every 6 or so hours (depending on where in the world you were...)

But now, we, like everyone else depends on the chart plotter...It is a great idea to use the hand bearing compass, dividers, protractor, parallel rules etc and plot some positions to keep our skills up. [/b]
 
Paper or plastic. Hmmm. I chose plastic. In my opinion, if your going to rely on paper charts you better be an expert at actually reading them and understanding how to use them to navigate. It's a mystery to me how to do that. I was reading where you have to account for magnetic variation, deviation ect. Too confusing to me. My chartplotter works just fine. I also have a hand held back up should there be electical problems.
 
OK all you people that would rather have a paper charts than a chart plotter if you could only have one, I have a challenge for you.

We go out into Puget Sound, I pick the area and you plot a course with a half dozen points at least a mile apart. Each leg has to change at least 30 degrees from your current heading. Your challenge will be to hit within 100 yards of each point and within 10 yards of your destination with just the paper charts and compass.

If you can, I buy you and your favorite other person dinner and drinks at your choice of restaurant. If you miss any of them, you put those paper charts away and get a good chart plotter and gps.

Of course there will be some simulated conditions involved.
________
Dave dlt.gif
 
I don't think that any one wants to go back to "old technology" No, I suspect that no-one, not even the best predicted log racer could do better than a novice with a GPS plotter in the situation which Dave outlined; (especially since he chose a place which has some signficant currents). On the other hand, a skilled navigator, with a GPS plotter would be far more precise than the novice--who might not understand the principles involved.

--Yes, seven U S destroyers (relying on "new technology--the RDF) went on the beach in thick fog near Pt. Arguello, CA in 1923 and with radar this would not have happened. But why did the "Queen of the North" (BC ferry) proceed straight on an incorrect course for four nautical miles over 14 minutes until its grounding at 17.5 knots on Gil Island. on March 29 2006? Crew error. There was also crew error when the destroyers were lost.

I can give at least a dozen examples of boats which were lost in the last year or so, despite the best electroncis. We have had 3 right here in Perdido Pass--because the skipper didn't look at the chart--and only looked at the chart plotter, and left out the prudent step of going to the sea bouy before turning into the pass channel. They thought because the chartplotter showed that it was "clear" it was safe. Wrong, there are rocks right under the water and the short cut was "fatal" for the boats.


I believe that we should all learn how to do simple navigation if we are gong to venture forth on the water. I also believe that a boat with a skilled navigator, who has good situational awareness, will be considerably safer than one without the knowlege and skills. But I realize that some people are not going to take the time to take power squadron or CG auxillary navigation courses, even though it broadens the boating experience.

I have lost GPS signals at times near military bases or warships. There have been occasions where the GPS signals have been Off--especially involving WAAS--and then there are the frequent times when outside of the US, when the charts are several miles off from the GPS position (yes the chart plotters are off also--and one has to realize that)--OK--you just rely on boating where you know that the GPS will always work?

The paper chart is a back up--and planning tool in todays world.
 
Brats,

The problem with electronic charting is one of perceived accuracy. The screen shows the chart and the boat symbol and we think we are there where the plotter shows us to be.

We might have all heard the acronym GIGO(garbage in--garbage out). The position shown is only as good as the chart data.

Consider this: I purchased a chart of Dall Is Alaska this summer. Here is a scan of the chart number and edition date.



scan1001.jpg

This shows the edition date and the last corrections. Looks good, right?

However, here is scan of another part of the same chart. This box labeled source shows the dates that the surveys were made.



scan1002.jpg

So this chart, which was corrected up to date when purchased, is based on survey data from BEFORE 1900 TO 1969 and the soundings are only partial.

For those of you using a chartplotter, do you know how recent your chart data is? In the part of Alaska shown on this chart, the chart data is actually old, and incomplete. Isolated rocks can and do exist.

Do not assume that just because your plotter shows a nice new image that that image is accurate. This is a problem with all electronic images. A typewritten page from 1940 looks, feels, and smells old. We know that that data is OLD. If that same data is typed into a computer and displayed, it looks as new as yesterdays data. Do not be fooled by the nice crisp clear image on your plotter.

Navigation occurs in the MIND of the navigator, make sure YOUR mind is out there ahead of your boat, and not playing a video game on your screen.
 
Brats,

One way to navigate today is to set waypoints, enter them into the GPS or chartplotter and then steer the boat to those waypoints.

Waypoints can be 'picked off' a paper chart or marked on the plotter with the cursor. If picked off a paper chart, they then have to be entered by hand into the GPS. Plotters do that for you.

The trick is in selecting those waypoints. Lets say you are going thru a narrow harbor entrance. You can set a WP right in the entrance and steer to it. But be careful if there are any hazard near the harbor entrance. I prefer to set two or three WPs, one outside in safe water, one in the entrance, and one inside the harbor. If possible they should be in a straight line.

Then, when you arrive at the outer WP, you can steer for the entrance WP and then to the inner WP, all in a straight line. This lets you evaluate current, which can cause cross track error, which could set you onto the rocks.

Always allow for errors in your position, course and the location of hazards. Trying to cut it close next to an underwater rock can turn into a disaster. If you are at all doubtful of your position, slow down or stop and evaluate the situation using all means at your disposal.

Floating nav aids(bouys) are the least reliable, they can be drug off station by shipping, or strong winds. Fixed nav aids are better.

I have found that setting a WP off a point of land or marker, or light works well. The direction to the nav aid from the WP should be 90 degrees to your course line so that when you get to the WP according to your GPS, you can visually confirm your position.

Using electronic aids is the modern way. Just be sure to check and confirm that the electronics are not leading you into danger.

El and Bill have written about Electronically Aided Collisions, where two boats on autopilot using the same waypoints are approaching each other from opposite directions. That never existed prior to GPS.

Boat safe!

Larry H
 
well said thataway and larry,after 20+yrs using paper charts i still consider myself a student and not a pilot or even close . but even using basic speed-time -compass bearings if all failed in a thick fog i bet i could run a few patterns to find a sea buoy and get home for dinner and if i took oldgrowths bet ,he would be eating a MRE on deck of USCG rescue boat just teasing oldgrowth but i agree its usefull to atleast have some back-up and basic skill-safe navigation to all..........john
 
Brats,

For those who think their GPS is exact, try this:

Turn on your GPS when your boat is on the trailer or tied to a dock. Set the display to show the Lat-Lon numbers and observe.

On the Lat line, the Lat is shown as degree, minutes. and decimal minutes. Like this 38*45.568. A degree of Latitude is 60 miles, a minute is 1 mile. The first number after the decimal, 5 is 5/10 ths of 1 mile, the 6 is 6/100 ths of a mile and the 8 is 8/1000 ths of a mile. A mile(Nautical) is 6000 ft so that last digit is 8/1000 or 48 feet. Each time that digit changes by one (from 8 to 9) the distance the boat has moved is 6 feet.

You may be surprised to find that your parked boat is moving around by 10 to 60 or more feet!! That wandering around is the accuracy or lack of accuracy of the GPS signal. If the second digit to the right of the decimal changes by one digit, that represents 60 feet! Sixty feet could easily put you on a rock or run you into a bouy in the fog.

Another way to see this is to put the GPS on 'track' and watch the position shift around.(while parked)

Please consider that the next time you zoom past a hazard on the water using the GPS or plotter for position.

Boat safe.

Larry H
 
Larry - I agree with everything you said, but if you are in the Sound say near the shipping lanes then it gets just enough hazy/fogy so you can no longer see your land markers. You are on a bearing that parallels the shipping lane and now all you have is a compass to go by and your paper charts. You have another mile and a half to go, then you turn 90 degrees to cross the shipping lane.

I doubt 1 in 500 people here could walk the heading on flat pavement with a hand compass and be within 200 feet of their point. Now get in a boat with current, waves, wind and a little apprehension and try it. Bet you can’t come within a quarter mile of your point. I bet just about everybody here with a little practice, can do it with a chart plotter and gps.

I am not saying you go by the chart plotter without visually looking out the windows for hazards that are not on the chart.

In my other life, I had every USGS 7.5 minute and 30 minute Topographic map for the state of Washington and Oregon plus every ortho photo for the state of Washington. I had to be able to run a line in the woods over rough terrain where you can not see 20 feet in front of yourself at times and be within a foot of my destination. The only thing I had was a helper a 165 foot tape, a staff compass and my maps.

I do know the difference between grid north, true north and magnetic north. I can read close to ¼ degree on my staff compass and the pocket compass I have with me all the time (except on the boat) is accurate to within ½ degree. Most compasses people carry with them are accurate to one to two degrees at the best.

I now have all my maps and photos in one device I carry with me called a palm computer with gps capability. I use it on land and as a backup for my chart plotter and gps on my boat.

With my experience, I would not attempt to do what I laid out in the beginning of this post, without a gps and electronic charts. With them there would be no hesitation to do so.
________
Dave dlt.gif
 
Dave,

I don't navigate anymore by chart and compass except to keep track and verify the GPS.

What I do is navigate by GPS using waypoints set in a non charting GPS. So I follow the course to the waypoint, distance and time to waypoint, etc. I find the waypoint info by either using waypoint books, picking the WP off the chart, or marking the WP on one trip and storing and using that WP later. I record the Lat-Lon of the waypoints that make up the routes I use on paper. My Furuno GPS instructions warns that a GPS is not a foolproof waypoint storage system. Like any electronic storage media, it can fail and wipe out the data.

I always try to look at the view out the front and compare that to the chart info. When its foggy, that doesn't work and the GPS course and compass are all I can see anyway.

I am sure that a chartplotter is a very easy way to navigate. The problem is that folks don't learn anything about the charts that are the basis of the plotter. Things that can affect accuracy, when the surveys were done, horizontal chart datum, errors caused by 'stitching' the charts together, and so on. The accuracy of a chartplotter is no better than the data used to create the chart files.

The other problem is that a $0.25 butt splice or fuse can disable the plotter and then what do you do? If the paper charts are out and sequenced for the trip, you can continue on or get to a safe position to repair the plotter, but if the charts are stowed and not ready for use, what will happen?

If a person never learns how to match the chart to the view out the window, how will they navigate if the plotter fails?
It is possible for the military to shut off the GPS system at any time. It is also possible for a solar flare to disable the GPS system.

I am not saying don't use a chartplotter, just use it with caution and knowledge and have a backup plan. A chartplotter is not a substitute for learning how to navigate. It is just another tool.

And don't forget to install a magnetic compass. A magnetic compass will work even if all your electronics go down.

Safe boatin to yah!

Larry H
 
thataway":h3gawe8z said:
.....

--Yes, seven U S destroyers (relying on "new technology--the RDF) went on the beach in thick fog near Pt. Arguello, CA in 1923 and with radar this would not have happened. But why did the "Queen of the North" (BC ferry) proceed straight on an incorrect course for four nautical miles over 14 minutes until its grounding at 17.5 knots on Gil Island. on March 29 2006? Crew error. There was also crew error when the destroyers were lost.

I can give at least a dozen examples of boats which were lost in the last year or so, despite the best electroncis. We have had 3 right here in Perdido Pass--because the skipper didn't look at the chart--and only looked at the chart plotter, and left out the prudent step of going to the sea bouy before turning into the pass channel. They thought because the chartplotter showed that it was "clear" it was safe. Wrong, there are rocks right under the water and the short cut was "fatal" for the boats.

......

The paper chart is a back up--and planning tool in todays world.
Click to expand...

Just last year two large commuter vessels collided in Boston Harbor in fog.

http://ledger.southofboston.com/article ... news05.txt

Pretty wild considering the multiple 4' open radar arrays on these ships.

I also agree the paper chart should be the planning tool and back-up. If I'm planning a trip I will chart the course on the paper charts, choose my waypoints from the chart, then enter the coordinates into the GPS. In this case the chartplotter would really be the backup but I know (with as much confidence as one can have in a GPS) that I am going to the spot I want. I would trust coordinates taken off a paper chart before I would trust what a chartplotter is showing me. How many have mentioned issues where they are in the dead center of a channel with the chart plotter reading they were on shore?

I can't wait to get a chartplotter, but the paper charts are the most reliable.
 
Dr. Bob,

the 7 destroyers lost on Honda Reef, north of Pt. Arguello wern't lost due to crew error, but rather a boneheaded command decision. The command of the lead destroyer insisted on ignoring some small hints from the RDF that they were in the wrong position, and told everyone to keep in his tail, in the fog, so HE could set a new speed record from SF to SD. guess what, when you ignore common sense in pursuit of vanity, you can lose big time.

When I was launching a spacecraft out of Vandenberg, I went down there and saw the memorial. Also the abandoned Coast Guard station. Sometimes we forget how navigation technology has changed since GPS came in. With radar and your GPS, only stupidity can get you into trouble (nav trouble that is, I've been married a couple of times.) Once GPS came in and Clinton took of the built in error signals, everybody know where they are, and can get an accurate speed. Compare that to Capt. Cook 200 years ago. He was happy to be within the minute.

Boris
 
Dan,

Not trying to start an online battle here, but do you at least carry a couple of paper charts onboard?

I have experienced a hard drive failure on a computer and that blank screen won't tell you anything.

I have also experienced a battery failure and a failure in your 12v system could take out your chartplotter.

How would you cope with trying to repair an electrical failure at sea if you could not leave the helm?

Unless a paper chart blows out the window, it and a magnetic compass should be useable if all electronics go down.
 
Someone help me, "How do you view the charts downloaded from NOAA?"

We use the small flip-chart book (9x11) and GPS while underway and larger more detailed charts for planning. Especially while in the intercoastal it is nice to have the flip charts for a look ahead at markers landmarks and places to stop or see. I usually keep the GPS zoomed in so I know depths.

Most of the time while cruising along the Gulf Coast you will be subject to running aground if you don't keep an eye on your charts and GPS.

Tuesday while transiting Lemon Bay I had a rather large and fast SeaRay pass by giving me a funny look and shaking his head, I guess I was going to slow. About three minutes later after I made the turn on the intercoatstal that he missed, I shook my head at him as he was trying to back off a sandbar.
 
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