New C-dorys built?

This has been an interesting thread. My story is pretty simple. I've had several boats over time, the last before my 25' C-Dory was a 40' Searay, loaded with everything needed to enjoy cruising the great lakes. It was an expensive boat, I could afford it, and when I decided to get out of the big boat lifestyle I took a hit on the selling price because of the economic downturn. That didn't matter. Because I got out of it what I bought it for, the enjoyment of the water.

I searched out C-Dory boats because on one particularly rough day on Lake Huron the only boat I'd seen in 100 miles besides my 40 footer was a C-Dory, probably a 22 and was amazed at the way it was moving along.

So I started to do a little research, found this site, YouTube videos, dealer sites, etc. and without seeing one up close decided on a 25. Also looked at the Rangers but thought for my use just a little more than I wanted to put into a boat.

I located a new, albeit 2 year old, 25 at a dealer in NJ after checking inventories at other dealer sites, negotiated price over the phone, flew there and bought the boat.

I've outfitted it with the electronics I want and over this winter we're changing out the head for an Airhead, and adding an alcohol stove.

I bought what I could afford (I think most of us who visit this site do), the boat is exactly what I expected and wanted, and I'm very happy that I got it.

Will the C-Dory go away? I hope not but heck, I had a Fiero V6 that I loved too and they no longer make them. But I had that car for 10 years and sold it to someone who loved the car for what it was and I suspect that when I'm done with my C-Dory the same will happen.

I wish there had been a dealer like Matt closer to me. If so and I was looking now instead of last year I'd be working with him right now to buy a boat. And the reason is simple. As I've followed postings on this site, the guy seems honest, sincere and out to treat his customers right.

So, I hope things go well for Matt, for the manufacturer, and for this brand. But it won't affect my love for this boat one way or the other.
 
Ok. Can I issue an apology now for the tone of the last post?

Blame it on low blood sugar, bad night's sleep, or whatever, it was not one of my better composed posts. Some of the information and thoughts are valid, but the presentation was lacking (maybe just plain sucked!), and calling out Pat was unnecesary and in poor taste.

Pat obviously feels strongly about the brand, and wants it to do well. We are in agreement on this, as well as Jeff and Scott at Triton. Some of Pat's idea on the other Dealer Perspective thread are good ones.

The free flow of ideas on this site is a good thing. And because of the limited oversight, sometimes information or ideas are presented that aren't well founded. As mentioned above, sometimes it's messy, but the belief is that the readers of this site are intelligent, and can take the varied ideas and opinions and form their own conclusion.

For my part, besides just answering some technical questions, I try to give a window into what goes on "behind-the-scenes", pulling the curain back and giving you a special pass backstage. People will sometimes say "Factory / dealer/ whomever should do this..." and I like to give enough insight into why sometimes we can't do x, y or z. Sometimes there are legal reasons, sometimes practical and still other times finacial.

So, again, I'm sorry that my frustration boiled over. I love boats and boating, and hate to see the industry is struggling as much as it is. It's a lot more fun when people are coming in and talking about boats in an enjoyable way. For the last couple of years we've dealt with far too many "vultures" looking to pick the carcass of dead factories or dealers, taking advantage of others' misfortune, and that just isn't fun.
 
I for 1 accept that apology, yes we all have days when we get frustrated and rethink some of the things we have said, I am sure all of us have been there more than once, I know I sure have. Too bad we cannot just hit that "do over" button.
 
All the dealer-crying about the lack of floorplanning from the boat makers is rather confusing to me. I was under the impression that the typical floorplan arrangement was an interset-only loan, with the principal paid-off upon the eventual sale of the boat. Please correct me if that's not the way it is.

Loan interest rates are currently the lowest that any living person has ever experienced...I currently have a $100K interest-only loan (put toward a waterfront property purchase) that costs about $300/month (+/- 3.24% annual).

What on earth did boat dealers do when interest rates were 19%, around 1981, for example? px-Federal_Funds_Rate_1954_thru_2009_effective.svg.png
 
Hi karl, Its not the interest rate that is the problem these days its the lack of availability of the flooring programs. While interest is low, lending is the tightest its been in a long time. Its that old catch 22, only the people that don't need the money qualify. Lenders typically look at gross profit margins to help decide if a flooring program makes sense or not. These institutions typically don't specialize soley in one market. If they have a billion in capital to loan its going to the folks with high margin / fast turn product models.
 
When interest rates were 19%, lending institutions were anxious to loan money. That's certainly not the case today... they're tight in giving loans to consumers OR businesses. I have friends who are in the boat business and the motorcycle business - both considered discretionary income purchases. They tell me there isn't so much a problem with consumer desire, but with the ability to get customers financed; much less getting floorplanning financing for dealerships. It's a crunch that hits dealers and manufacturers at both ends.

It doesn't take an MBA to understand that there were a LOT of bad loans made a few years ago. Because of that, banks are not anxious to make any loans unless that loan is 100% secured. There are lending institutions that have taken stimulus $$ that was intended to get consumers spending again and used that money to improve their balance sheets. Until credit eases up, big ticket item sales that are typically financed are not going to improve.
 
There is really only one big player left in the flooring business, and that's GE Capital. Rates have gone up over the last year, and rates on inventory that is past it's first birthday can have interest rates higher than a retail loan on the product.

Plus it is my understanding that the manufacturer has to be able to buy back inventory if a dealer goes out of business. So there are a number of qualifiers to have flooring money be available, some of them (most of them) beyond our control.

The banks are tight with funding. They were told by the feds that they didn'y have enough in reserve, so they spent the last year increasing their reserve, and using TARP funds to do so. They improved their balance sheets because they were told to.

Now the government comes along and wants to know why they aren't loaning more money. One government agency tells them to hold onto more money, and other wants them to let loose of it.

Alternative flooring sources are local banks, few of which remain that are willing to put out a line of credit for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Even loans against property (land) are harder to get, and have a lot more stipulations.
 
Well, it appears that business-models are changing...I have heard many industry-insiders curse GE Capital...they seem to be the bad-boy, since dealers either go with them, or, fail without them. Odd that one player can dominate one segment of the marketplace...why no competition?

When seeking a $100K interest-only loan a month ago, I found that lenders were all over me like flies-on-shit...my decision was based upon the lender that had the least restrictive early repayment penalty clause, since this was going to be a "bridge" loan for me, not totally different than a floorplan loan for a boat dealer, unless that dealer is under-capitalized, perhaps.

Most lenders are seeking borrowers who can't repay a loan's principal, but who can perpetually pay daily interest. That would seem to fit the boat dealer floorplan, unless the borrower was considered risky, meaning the lender would have little recourse after a default. The creditcard bankers, for example, hope you only pay the monthly minimum, and never touch the principal...I would think that GE Capital is of a similar mindset. Unless, they simply don't think a dealer is worthy...

My logic is probably flawed...I'm just a dumb cop and my graduate degree is far-removed from finance.
 
This item isn't directly related to the number of new C-Dories built, but then neither are some of the above comments. Still, I hope to get a couple of comments.

I looked at the brat map for 25' C-Dories, and noticed that in So Cal (south of Fresno) there are 4 ea shown. The one in Rolling Hills was sold, the other is a broker, and I assume that has been gone for years, so that leaves Dora-Jean and Journey On. 2 C-25's in SoCal, that's a ridiculously small number.

So the question is why? Both Judy and I love the thing. It's comfortable, seaworthy, great for the fishing we do (and Steve too,) and the only thing for cruising. Price is decent, too, especially since there's a couple of used ones on the market. Dependable, gas efficient and at least 14 more attributes. It's not a go-fast boat or a deep-v offshore with 300 hp.

So I guess it's not a SoCal boat? I know when Jeff Messimer was at C-Dory he tried to get a good dealer in So Cal and that didn't turn out so well. I do know that a Ranger 25 sat in front of a dealer on Shelter Island, San Diego for the best part of a year before it went elsewhere.

So who knows why a C-Dory is rare in So Cal?

Boris
 
I think geographic areas have different tastes and grow up with different sorts of boats. To generalize, a lot, SoCal loves its eliminators and sleekcrafts, the PNW loves its aluminum boats. I think if C-Dory is to thrive they need to re-tool their business model. I don't have to convince, anyone on this site that C-Dorys are great boats. The problem is they're very durable and its a niche sort of person who is interested in one. Economy aside, I think the old niche may be relatively saturated. A 20 year old C-Dory will still compete against a new model in the marketplace. Again everyone has opinions, but I think they might look at dolling up the boats a bit with some teakwood, and more sophisticated aesthetics. Keep it very clean like a Down East boat and maybe they could scoop up some of that cream that Ranger seems to be enjoying. I've found there's two markets the bottom and the top..in between is no-man's land.
 
I was born and raised in California and first learned boating in and off of Alamitos Bay at Long Beach. So, having said that and with full respect for Southern California boaters, I think of C-Dorys as cruising boats that are esteemed where one can cruise from island to island or from interesting port to port or on inland lakes and waterways with places to anchor out and with the cruising part of the trip being a highlight. There is not a lot of that in California ocean waters. Sure one can go to Catalina and the Channel Islands, or from Long Beach to Laguna Beach, to San Diego and so on. But the cruising part of those journeys isn't as appealing as in some other locations. I'm not much of a fisherman but recently had the boat on the Central California coast at Morro Bay but didn't even put it in the water because, what would I do once I cleared the bay? Same thing a little later when we were at Half Moon Bay. If I were still a sailor things would be different because the sailing is the thing not the getting from here to there. I mean no insult to California boaters but C-Dorys don't seem particularly suited to those waters thus not many there.
 
Well, look at the Northern NY portion of the map, and you will see exactly ZERO boats within a 100-mile radius of Montreal...C-Dory is not a household word up here on the Northeastern Canadian border...

The welded aluminum-plate boats so common in the PNW are likewise unknown here...I've been trying to view either a C-Dory or a Hewescraft, new or used, for over a year...without success, unless I want to fly halfway across the US for the priveledge of just seeing one or the other...
 
Karl":2q64h7xq said:
Well, it appears that business-models are changing...I have heard many industry-insiders curse GE Capital...they seem to be the bad-boy, since dealers either go with them, or, fail without them. Odd that one player can dominate one segment of the marketplace...why no competition?
Click to expand...

There were a couple of other players (Textron was one) but when the economy tanked it became a money loser for the finance companies. At one point Textron was offering significant incentives (reduced principle) for dealers to pay off the units that were still floored with Textron because they wanted out of the marine flooring business, at almost any cost.

When Olympic Yacht Centers went under, there were thousands of boats that were floored that Brunswick had to buy back from the flooring company. I'm sure some arrangement was made to get those boats to the new dealers that picked up the lines, and Brunswick had to guarantee the deals- again. Lake Union Sea Ray picked up Bayliner, Meridian and Trophy, and had hundreeds of boats they had to clear out in very short time, and prices were discounted to move them.

There were 55 18 Capri runabouts in that group of boats. C-Dory has never sold 55 boats in the northwest in a year, and the Bayliner dealer had 55 of one model in stock!

Without a manufacturer with pockets deep enough to reabsorb stock should a dealer default, GE isn't willing to take a chance. After what they went through two years ago, they are very cautious about putting money out there.
 
Trade Only Today
Daily News for Marine Industry Professionals

The dawn of a new dealer model

"...Lenders also have severely reduced or canceled dealer floorplan credit lines in the last few years in response to the banking crisis and the industry's steep decline. In response, dealers have adapted to making fewer new-boat sales. A case in point is consignment boats. Parker, who conducts 20 Group seminars with dealers around the country, says dealers are reporting as much as 25 percent gross margins on sales..."

http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/compo...eatures/507859-the-dawn-of-a-new-dealer-model
 
Going back to the original question as to how many C Dories built? There have been a number of different builders, and some models which have been discontinued--hull molds sold off (think of Black Feather and the Tom Cat 30). Then, many of the seriel numbers were not sequential, but were based on orders. Sometimes manufactures start at 100 or so, to give the impression that more boats are out there.

Kenny Choas seems to have gone away--sorry, that should not happen.

Flooring--GE does not want to get stung by dealers going out of business. Even though the economy seems to be a bit better, boat sales are still down. Dealers are still struggling. Many people are still frightened about the future. Any loan is not that easy to get if your credit is not 100%--and boat loans are no exception--many banks got stung. I recently bid on a $1.2 million dollar boat--which the bank had $750,000 owed on it--and had taken it back (my bid was ridiciilously low for a "flip"). The bank bought the boat for $750k, and cleared the documented title.

I disagree about "modernizing" the C Dory--in fact older boats had more teak, and some owners didn't like the maintance. There have been gradual improvements--many based on owner modifications. There is a hull form which works--some like the slightly more modern Venture type line or the newer Tom Cats, with liners. There are pluses and minues to this.

About S. Calif. There are more than 2 C dory boats there, but they are not on the list. I also spent most of my life in S. Calif--first solo was in Alamitos bay in 1941, and probably first sail there also sometime in 1936 or '37. I sailed out of Alamitos bay for over 30 years--both sail and power. I found plenty to do on the weekends at Catalina, and Channel Islands. My son enjoyed the same recently in the C Dory 25. Boating has limitations in S. Calif--storage is difficult, both slips are hard to find--marinas are putting in more larger slips, and removing the smaller ones. Storage lots are full, and very expensive. I first saw a C Dory in the late 1970's and noted that this boat went to Catalina almost every weekend of the year. Then I said "that will be a boat I own when I get old" It happened. It is not a kids boat, and limited accomidations make it not as popular. The Ranger Tug series are entirely different boats--inboard--diesel, fancier etc, Generally they appeal to a different type of boater. (or for a different purpose as ghome notes--I also buy aboats for a "purpose").
 
Karl":1h1jsu2i said:
Well, look at the Northern NY portion of the map, and you will see exactly ZERO boats within a 100-mile radius of Montreal...C-Dory is not a household word up here on the Northeastern Canadian border...

The welded aluminum-plate boats so common in the PNW are likewise unknown here...I've been trying to view either a C-Dory or a Hewescraft, new or used, for over a year...without success, unless I want to fly halfway across the US for the priveledge of just seeing one or the other...
Click to expand...

We did just that, Karl. When we were in the discovery stage (2005), the nearest dealer was over 1,000 miles away... and they didn't have a rigged boat to look at or try. I tried going to the Brat Map, and the closest boat listed was about 400 miles from us. I tried to contact several people via that route and did not get a single response. I then asked on the forum about these boats, and received a warm welcome and encouragement. It took a trip from south Texas to the Seattle Boat Show (nearly 2,600 miles) to get to SEE one of these boats. Thanks to that display and a ride on a boat from Starcraft Tom, we placed our order for a C-Dory.

People are fascinated by our boat in south Texas. We regularly get questions at the fuel dock or when out at anchor. We met one of our local friends (Walldog, Willie, and Jake) because of the boat. I've had people ask if the boat is "too hot" because of the cabin in our subtropical climate... just the opposite - you're out of the sun and still get a good breeze; it's very comfortable. I think it's less a matter of geography and more a matter of what works in an area. In the Tropical Tip, most boats here are used for fishing: flats boats that draw less than 6", center console with full walk-around. When they see our boat, you can see the wheels turning regarding how the boat would fish. We cruise, don't fish. That is WAY from the norm there.

With no dealer in Texas, I am pleasantly surprised at the number of C-Dorys (and Ranger Tugs) that are now in the Lone Star State. The boat WORKS. It's worth making a trip to get to experience that. We weren't looking for "a household word", we were looking for the right boat. I think it would be worth your time to travel to see one of these boats.

Good luck with your search.

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
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