Little help please !!!

J

JARG22

New member
Hi all and thanks in advance for any help!!

Gotta admit a world of confusion on boats in general so I hope these questions don't sound to silly...

Nearing the point (maybe..) of semi early retirement and since we live in florida and very close to the Ocean and the ICW the idea of kicking around on a boat for some adventure and experience seems very intriguing,,

Despite considerable research and talking to a number of boat salesman I can't seem to get a straight answer on some basic questions, if anybody has an opinion please chime in. So here goes:

What are the major differences between the C-dory and the Tomcat line..the C-dory website is not all that clear and I am a complete newbie on this..

To spend most of the time on the ICW and occasionally out on the ocean is 25' to small?

Could you make an occasional jaunt over to the Bahamas or somewhere similar or is this just to much/danger/trouble/problems..?

Once I'm past the purchase/insurance costs how much does this cost to actually run? (unbelievably this was the hardest part to try and get from a salesman)..In plain words how far can I go per gallon or tank full or some measure assuming a leisurely pace? Point to point examples would be very helpful...

How hard and what is the best way to learn to be comfortable and reasonably "in command" of being on the boat?

What are the "gotta have" extras that you would reccomend?

The C-dory's look economical and cute in an ugly sorta way (no offense) and have the added option of appearing trailerable. What other boats are comparable?

We're a pretty simple needs couple and are assuming we can anchor out at most places and use a marina/hotel once in awhile when we are underway..is this realistic?

New versus used? Remember we are newbs and not prone to fixing something in the middle of the ICW..

The emphasis for us will be driven allot by economics (tried sailing..hated it) but the prospect of sucking down gas/diesel at $3-$4 a gallon worries us....any secrets to getting the most bang for your invested buck?

My wife is concerned she will be bored to tears..<LOL> can you carry some radios/internet access/cellular etc. conveniences and have them work?

GPS/maps how lost can I get assuming I stay in the ICW and/or near shore at least initially?

There are probably a dozen similar questions but I've probably imposed enough..truly grateful for any answers...

Larry
 
Hi Larry,
Welcome to the Pub. As to your questions, I would suggest you follow the link I am providing to answer most of your questions. Here are a few breif answers in a nutshell:

A fun boat in either the 22 or 25. Can it go to the Bahamas? Yep, the boat is capable, but are you...not yet...more experence needed but fesable in a short time and there are groups going over to tag along with.

Will your wife get bored, not if she enjoys travel and coastal points of interest. Internet, XM Radio and even TV...if you a mind too.

Check out this link for all your answers: http://www.geocities.com/bill_fiero/index.htm
 
Whew, Larry, that is a lot of questions. We have been sailors for years and have recently purchased a C-Dory 25, and absolutely love it. If you were to get bored out playing on one of these, then you must have a very high excitement threshold... there is SO much to see and do from the water.

My first suggestion to you would be to take a Power Squadron Safe Boating class... yes, even before you buy a boat. This will give you some idea of what to expect from a boat... and let you rub elbows with other boaters (many who have likely taken the class before and are there for a refresher).

The biggest difference (and it is a BIG one) between the CD-25 and the TomCat is the 25 is a monohull and the TomCat is a catamaran - while the cabins are very similar, the hulls are completey different... and different in how they perform. Both very good boats... just very different from each other.

ANY boat could be too small to be out on the ocean if you don't watch the weather. We intend to take our 25 to the Bahamas. I have plenty of sea time, a USCG Captain's License, and I will watch the weather window very carefully before I make a trip like that. Very doable with these boats - just pick your time.

And, yes, you can get VERY lost on the ICW. It is not just one ribbon of water... it is many interconnected routes, inlets, bays, ship channels, etc, etc. Another good reason to take a class that will teach you some basic navigation skills and most importantly, Rules of the Road.

You will find that the fuel burn varies with the speed you run. Pull the power back and you will burn less fuel. We can get over 8 mpg at 6 knots, less than 3 at 15 knots... and it goes down from there. That doesn't sound great compared to an econobox car, but is actually quite decent for a boat... especially one that offers the accomodations the C-Dory does.

We have retired about 8 weeks ago. For quite a few years, we have spent winters sailing. We are having an absolute blast with this boat. I almost feel guilty 'cause it's so easy and fun. Almost.

If a beautiful sunset, a night at anchor, snuggling with your honey in the v-berth, sipping drinks in the cockpit, seeing new sights (like Orcas whales!!!), and getting to meet a wonderful group of owners doesn't turn you on, then boating (and specifically this boat) isn't for you.

If you don't have much experience, one ride may not tell you all you need to know. Take the class. Talk to other boaters. Definitely hang out here. You are in for one heck of a ride!

Good luck with your decisions.

Best wishes,
Jim B.

PS... I am sending this message from the boat, via a broadband wireless internet card. Cool, huh? :wink
 
Beautifully said, Jim -

That's exactly how I feel and wish I could add something useful. Nothing else needed. Life is great.

Dusty
 
Larry... I agree 100% with the others. I will add, do not buy a boat that you have not had in the water. Many boats look and feel good sitting on the show room or at boat shows all shined up and lights on them... but ya gotta get them in THEIR environment...IN THE WATER.

Slow down and do some study. Come take a ride or two with some of us who already have these boats. A great opportunity will be in October the weekend of 20-22nd in the Apalachicola Bay/East Point FL area.

Look in the Event Signups Link at the top of this sites homepage...click into the Gulf Coast Gathering..... get in your vehicle....and come chat/see and ride a few. We have a great representation of C-Dory boats there, as well of folks much smarter than me with many more years of boating experience... Drive over from Ponte Vedra and join us. The Gibson Hotel is a great historic hotel within about 5 minutes of the dock sight where we will have our boats.

But one thing for sure....get at least one boat...and love the waters you have available to you for sure.
 
Byrdman yep, so true you must get a ride on a boat you're interested in, everybody has a different idea of their 'ideal' boat. I'd like to add though, getting a ride on a lake is one thing, but if you're going to be in the ocean with big waves, that test ride won't tell you much for your own intended use. Try to get a ride in the environment you'll be mostly using -- very important!
 
Wow...slow down is certainly good advice along with the idea of taking the class and cerytainly riding on and meeting with owners. The more I study the less I seem to know..<LOL>

One thing I am absoultely unable to get a handle on is basic operational costs and time spent getting from from point A to Point B. Maybe someone could start there with my education. Here all the "buzz words" being tossed about that seem to go into the equation "burn rate", single engine vs. twins, gallons per mile, gallons per hour, diesel vs. gas, Tomcat vs. cruiser, and then of course throw in knots vs. miles on some discussions and yep my head is spinning...

Is there a secret decoder ring I need to order to understand this? Can it be viewed like an automobile? I know that the faster I drive the worse my gas mileage, the bigger my car the lower my gas mileage, a four cylinder is more efficient then a six cylinder, etc., etc.

Can someone (assuming average conditions) relate we went from Point A to Point B and it took us X amount of time and we burned X amount of gas. Now if we had had the X type engines we would have gotten there in X amount of time and burned X amount of gas. If we had taken X amount more time we would have saved X amount of gas. If we had the diesel package it would have changed the equation this way. Had we been in a Tomcat it would have been this way while a cruiser would be this way. IF the weather was calm it changes this way in chop that way.

Yes as my wife would say I am pretty anal retentive on some of this (but make a great margarita) but these seem pretty fundamental aspects to deciding some initial questions about type of boat and budget expectations. Perhaps I was ahead of myself on the earlier list...

Thanks all for the educatoin...

Larry
 
Larry,
Welcome aboard and interesting questions for a newbie. I just resently took the plunge with a 22' cruiser and found the results pleasing to say the least. I was just out in the ocean salmon fishing and was impressed with our feul consumption and water handling capabilities. We put about five hours on the engine and burned less then 10 gallons of fuel, most of that work was at varying speeds as you run out to fish in very lumpy water. I have done this with other boats I have had and burned much more fuel doing it. I would say that a dorys fuel consumption is at least 1/2 that of a run about but varies with each owner and how they run them. After some study and tests I think you will find the C-dory very confortable to own and opperate. Good luck in your fact finding, and remember to study the issues, get informed then jump off the fence that is the only way you will answer the question of is a c-dory the right boat for you. Enjoy. Dan
 
Hi Larry--

I won't try to answer all your questions but I can address a couple of things. First, these boats are pretty easy to handle with a little practice in safe, calm conditions. I was pretty much a novice at power boating when we took delivery of our boat in April and I'm starting to feel like I can do a lot of things without embarassing or endangering myself.

On the issue of costs, check the specs on the engines you are considering. Look at the gallons per hour at cruising speed. Do some math and give yourself a range for variables such as cost of fuel, etc. Also figure in maintenance that you have to pay someone else to do (for me that's basically everything), any storage or slip fees you may need (we keep our boat on a very inexpensive town mooring in the summer but have to pay for winter storage), insurance, etc. I will say that we have cruised a lot of the spring and summer (mostly short fairly slow trips close to home, a few bigger adventures) on maybe $300 dollars worth of gas, less than it costs to go out for one day some boats. Haven't broken any speed records but we've had a LOT of fun.

One little tool I used while figuring out time and cost info was Google Earth. You can download the free software, then measure paths for various routes you might be interested in cruising. You can come up with a fairly accurate mileage, then divide by an average speed you think you can maintain depending on conditions (in the 22 I use about 15 mph and then assume I could do a little better or a little worse) and you'll have the amount of time it's likely to take to get somewhere. A Tom Cat will get you there a bit faster, but will use more fuel.

The more you read on this site and talk to boat owners, the more you'll figure out. Good luck!

Norma
 
Larry,

My 22 cruiser gets about 2.25 to 2.5 Nautical MPG(A nautical mile is 15% longer than a statute[land] mile).

My average speed has been about 11 knots(nautical miles per hour) over many years of operation. Full throttle speed is about 20-22 knots. That is with our typical load for cruising.

I bought the boat new in Oct 1990, equipped with a 70 hp 2-stroke Evinrude motor. A new 4-stroke motor would get better mileage.
 
Dear Larry,

Welcome to the world of boating. We always have more questions that need answers, if we are going to become skilled boat handlers and owners.

Take a course from the Coast guard Aux. or the Power Squad.This will get you started in the right direction.With the Power Squad. you can learn everything up to Clestial Navigation and meet a lot of nice people in the process.

Check out the fuel consumption tables on the C-Dory web site. It may give you a starting point. Generally speaking twin motors will use a little more fuel than a single.(I have always had single engine boats up to a Monk 36 Trawler) We now have a C-Dory 22 with a single 90HP Honda. We find that in actual use we burn about two GPH. Many times we only cruise several miles and then anchor and enjoy life and cheap wine.

If you really look forward to going off shore then the C-Cat would sure be a consideration.

After owning several brands of boats I feel that C-Dory makes fine products.

Just my ideas-take your time and take a ride before you buy!

Fred and Pat Messerly--Red Lion, Pa
 
Larry,

Welcome. I am by no means an experienced boater but I have a few thoughts. Take the CGAux courses on basic boating and basic navigation. Do it before you get a boat. Boating is like flying and not like driving i.e. if you screw up badly, do not pay attention to maintenance, weather, etc. while flying/boating the consequences can be catastrophic. driving is much more forgiving. You cannot get a really good idea about fuel consumption for a particular boat/motor combination because there are too many variables. Again driving v. boating is apples to oranges. Consider...while boating from A to B your fuel consumption depends on (at least) sea conditions, winds, cleanliness of boat hull, weight distribution in boat, motor condition, RPMs/speed, position of trim tabs/motor, etc. etc. you get the idea. Its a little bit like calculating gas mileage on a car if you go part way with the doors open to act as blocks, drive on gravel, ice, rutted dirt, uphill/downhill, loaded with the whole family plus great aunt Gertie, freshly tuned engines, etc. etc. You can get a general advance idea of fuel consumption for a particular type of trip but no precision. As to becoming confident, it depends on you. I have a fair amount of water experience and am comfortable on the water so it didn't take long for me to feel OK in the boat. My wife has much less experience and is still pretty nervous sometimes. Be cautious, don't overextend yourself (see above about catastrophes), stay on this site. Theres a lot of knowledge here. But you and your wife will probably enjoy a C-Dory more than you think.
 
You have been given excellent advice. I have owned many boats and traveled many miles on the waters, and am still learning--so don't feel bad about asking questions.

I have seen 20 foot boats go to the Bahamas on a very good day. Remember that the Gulf Stream flows North at 2 to 3 knots, and if the wind is blowing out of the North, it will make very steep waves. It is not so bad with the wind out of the West or South--somewhat sheltered by the land or with the waves.

You really have to watch and understand the weather before doing the Bahamas. I would take some power squadron courses, including ones on the Florida Weather. Actually summer is a better time for the Bahamas, excluding hurricanes, since the winds are more out of the South. However don't attempt a Bahama Crossing until you have a lot of experience.

I'll have to differ a little on the getting lost on the ICW. The ICW has markers almost every mile. A chart plotter will show exactly where you are within 10 to 20 feet. After some rudimentary navigation courses, the ICW will be a chinch. However, there are occasionally intersections with channels leading to the sea, or other parts of the ICW and this can be confusing for even an experienced navigator--the Chart plotter GPS makes this much easier. Also a very good pair of binoculars is essential, to see the next marker.

Costs--C Dory and Tom Cats (Catmarans) are some of the most economical boats to own. They are rugged, fairly cheap to buy, and fuel effecient. As noted, there are so many variables, that you cannot look at it as in a car. The weather may be perfect one way, and it may be 4 foot seas and 30 knots of wind on the way back--the speed and effeciency will vary greatly. The other thing you must understand is dynamics of boat hulls: Displacement speeds generally are less than 1.34 x the sq root of the length water line--or for a 20 foot waterline boat: 6 miles an hour. If you push most boats faster than that, it takes much more power, and you start building large wave making resistance, up until the boat comes up onto a plane. A plane is when the boat overtakes the bow wave, and the wake breaks clean aft. The semidory (C Dory) hull, is quite effecient at the semi displacment speeds because it begins to semi plane early--due to the flat bottom. The boats again become effecient when on a full plane, this is usually 18 to 20 miles an hour on up. The catmarran is slightly different.--but the Tom Cat is a planing cat and does not act like many of the semi displacment cats. So the most effecient speeds are very slow--it only takes 5 to 8 hp to push a boat at 4 to 5 mph. It will take 75 hp to push that same boat 25 miles an hour. The more HP, the more fuel use. Now what happens in the semi displacement, or mushing mode--before you come on a plane (Lower speed necessary because of rough water)--you have to use full hp to climb over that bow wave, and you are getting worse mileage at 15 miles an hour than you are at 25 miles an hour--it takes the 75 hp to go 15 miles an hour, as it does to get the full speed of 25 miles an hour (There are some generalizations here, and C Dories are not entirely typical boats).

The Catmarran is different because of narrow hulls--and more effecient going thru the water.

Generally the C Dory22 will make 2.5 to 3.5 miles a gallon in ideal conditions. I have not owned a C Dory25 so I cannot give an accurate answer. The Tom Cat 255, will get 1.7 to 2.5 miles a gallon in ideal conditions on a plane, (maybe slightly more if very light)--and up to 4 miles a gallon at a slow speed.

Costs of ownership: The boat--A C Dory 22 can be found for as little as $15,000. The C Dory 25 is going to cost in the $50,000 range used. The Tom Cat 255 are new, so you will pay new price of about $120,000 fitted out with trailer. Figure if you can afford to buy one outright, or have to finance. If you get a slip or dry storage, it will cost from $4 a foot a month to $20 a foot a month, depending on where you are. Insurance--probably from $350 to over $1000. Figure some for maintance of the motor--probably acouple of hundred dollars a year, plus a contigency fund for things that break...

Hope that helps: Get involved with the glasses, Buy Chapmans book on "Piloting and Seamanship" Read all 900 pages. Also consider a book like Nigel Caulder's book on Mechanical and Electrical handbook. Finally another excellent book is David Gerr's "The nature of Boats" which explains boat hulls and propellers etc. Read all of these, and you will become very knowlegable! Then you need to get a bunch of experience and go do it! Don't wait too long, life is short!
 
Larry -

I'll give you a different perspective, because I'm just about 6 months ahead of you. Exactly the same questions! (Although I do have some dinghy sailing, Puget Sound sail boat racing (crew on 30' years ago), and crewing on a Santa Cruz 27 in S.F. Bay and local ocean (whoa, what a ride!!).

We started asking these questions last fall, before finding the C-Dory site. In the meantime we attended several boat shows, and took the intro Power Squadron, and then the Seamanship course. These are about 6-8 weeks each.

(We're still waiting for finances to allow us to move to the next step).

The classes seem somewhat simple (at first), but then you begin to realize how much there is to know. As the courses progress you cover the same material several times, in increasing depth. It is -very helpful- to take this with others (rather than self-study) so you can benefit from others' experience, and questions that you might not have thought to ask.

There is no question in my mind that much of this information is -mandatory- for those without a background culture in boating. Even then I'd highly recommend them.

There is also no question that one does not learn how to operate a boat sitting in class, or in one's living room. The book can -tell- you to watch for deadheads while on the water, but what do they (really) look like? Do they look different when the sun is in front of you? Behind you? Chop on the water . . . ? What's that row of seagulls doing over there? (Sitting on a submerged log . . . !)

Re the features of the C-Dory. It seems to be one of the very few boats that one can live aboard for short (or extended cruises), can be trailered (by mere mortals), can serve as a 'boatel' while traveling, and can be brought into shallow water and beached (under the right conditions). These may or may not be the highest priorities for you, but for those looking for this combination the C-Dory seems ideal. It opens up the possibility of exploring lakes, rivers, and salt water . . .

Operating Costs: Yes, I know . . . . "If you have to ask, you can't afford it." This cliche is not very helpful, is it?

If you browse at old messages on this site you -will- find a lot of information, but it will come in small snatches. There was a great summary of a recent Alaska trip with every fuel stop, distance, mileage, etc. (I don't have the link).

You will certainly find that full displacement hulls are heavy, slooow, and very economical. However, they tend to roll . . . Deep Vee hulls are more comfortable under many conditions, but require more speed to get up on a plane, and therefore use -much- more fuel. Again, these issues are introduced in the P.S. courses,

We've been to severasl C-Dory gatherings, and the folks could not be more helpful. Keep your eyes and ears open, and you'll be sure to catch a ride if it begins to look like the C-Dory is one of your options.

Re the 'admiral'. I'm not easily bored myself, but anyone with an interest in any of the following should happy: Weather, bird-watching, seamanship, fishing, photography, navigation, exploring, reading, comparing equipment, sharing recipes, crabbing, clamming, local history . . . .

Good luck - you've got a lot of interesting new topics to consider . .

Ed
 
Operating costs - that's a bit of a hard one to quantify since so many things may or may not be included in the cost. While we can do the calculations based on MPG and other factors here's my real life expenses.

I use the boat about 225/year/engine based on the hour meters. I have twin Honda 40's. I usually pay to have maintenance done on each engine about once per year. Total cost for that is around $350/engine = $700.
On a typical weekend of just going out fishing for a day, I'll use 10-15 gals of gas. Since I tow, I can buy that on land and wind up paying about $3/gal. So figure $45/weekend in gas x about 20 trips/year = $900.
I do one long fishing trip/year and this year I spent about $650 in gas, moorage and bait for my 9 day Neah Bay Trip. Last year I spent closer to $900 as I had to take a break in the middle of it. I'll figure an average of closer to $800

To get my boat to and from Neah Bay takes about $110 in truck fuel and $140 in ferry charges = $250 RT. I went there twice this year $500.

Insurance is about $300/year for the boat and trailer. I tow it with an old F250 that I bought specifically for towing the boat. I replaced the starter on it this year at a cost of about $350. Oil changes and regular maintenance on the truck is another $200/year.

Launch fees range from $25 (for the sling at Edmonds with parking) to $5 with an average around $15 or $300 for the year for 20 trips (I use the sling a lot). License fees for the boat and trailer were somewhere around $300 for the year.

Wax, soap a new buffer and buffing pads - $100/year.
Misc. stuff that I may or may not actually need (new lines, electronics, replacement parts etc) $600/year.

Fishing tackle, the occasional shrimp/crab pot, bait etc. - $600/year.

The new retaining wall and parking pad I had built for the boat $8000 - if I amortize that over 10 years - $800/year

If I total the numbers in bold up, I come up with $6450/year.

Then I subtract out the cost of 50 sessions of pschotherapy at $150/hr that I don't need because of the pleasure I get out of boating = $7500, and I figure the boat saves me about $1050 a year! :lol:
 
A couple of other questions you asked: Other comperable boats:
Rosoborough 246 (semidisplacement--usually slower, but with large engines can get up to the same speed).

There are a handfull of pilot house boats built in the PNW which are livable and trailerable.

Cape Cruiser --direct competition. There is an on going thread on other boats.

Glacier Bay 2690 Cat, World Cat 270 are Cats (expensive, but nearly as much accomidation).

The Admiral being bored...The Admiral needs to learn to operate the boat as well as you do. If anything were to happen to your, she has to get the boat back home safely. Marie had to take our 62 foot motor sailer over 100 miles by her self, to get medical help when I had a paralized leg. Fortunately she radioed ahead for friends to meet us at the dock to help with tying up, since it was a very tight situation, and some considerable beam winds. One of the best new innovations for us is Sirius Radio for entertainment. I like NRP, Marie likes the oldies's music--we both like Jazz and Classical. We carry some DVD's some "learning" CD's. and a 15" LCD TV. We always have about a dozen paper backs. Marie also is my navigator (and back up to be sure I don't make a wrong turn or mistake!--also her judgement on buying a boat is absolute).

We have crossed oceans and been at sea for 17 days, without being bored--so there is plenty to do, if nothing more than watching the bird life, scenery and fishing--in fact some times there is too much to do!
 
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