Law Firm Finds Success Targeting Those Who Post Copyrighted

I believe our disagreement was me trying to get you to stop calling out the factory till you walked a mile in their shoes.
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Wow, easy there - many of us (including Jim) have walked a mile in their shoes as business owners. My favorite small business saying "do it right or don't do it at all".

That being said - now back to the rules - just be nice!

Have a nice evening.
 
My apologies for any toes I've stepped on. This non-boating issue has come up a couple times in the years that I've participated on this forum, and I've tried to educate without being preachy, from the perspective of one who spent a career dealing with copyright issues. Unless you've walked a mile in my shoes, I wouldn't expect someone to understand the frustration.

Narcissist? I have tried to provide some entertainment on different threads, even made an effort to give advice when asked. I have posted a lot here, but I hope I never brought it down to name calling. Don't confuse narcissism with passion. I took my career very serious; I am very passionate about being on the water. I try not to take myself so serious.

I'll try to sit on my hands the next time this issue comes up.

Jim B.
 
Well Jim, I for one and have no doubt most would agree that you sitting on your hands on this or any subject you care to share your opinion, humor and knowledge is a loss to this site. This subject in itself has close to zero interest to me, but other then a couple post the overall discussion was very entertaining (just hope what I learned on this subject didn't crowd out something more important I needed to retain :lol: ) and your posts as most always to me exceptionally so.

Jay
 
thataway":1r6rykha said:
Lets take this one step futher. I post something on this forum, and someone else copies this post-- (without credit)--is that infringement?
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Bob – that depends, I wish I had all the answers, but I don’t. If I copied the following and did not credit JimB with it as a copy of his post on the previous page, that would be unethical and infringement. If I posted it somewhere else and just said I copied this from another site, it could be a cloudy issue. I would say it depends on how I used it. If I tried to pass it off as mine, that would be stealing.
JamesTXSD":1r6rykha said:
It is less about making money and more about maintaining control of one's property; in this case: an image. If you take someone's image without authorization, the creator of that image no longer has control on how that image is being used. We dealt with this on a daily basis during my 30+ year career as a professional photographer. The world has changed - it is easy to "grab" an image and many people do it. People made the same argument with people trading "free" music on Napster... and a lot of people getting "free" music were successfully sued by the music publishing industry. It is theft of intellectual property.

Allow me to bring this to a boating situation. Your boat is sitting out at anchor. People can admire how pretty your boat is, sitting out there in all its beautiful glory. You get in your dinghy and head out to your boat. When you get there, you find 3 guys fishing in the cockpit your boat, two kids wresting out on the bow, and granny sitting on top, sunning herself.

Would you tell these people to get off your boat?

What if their response were: "Hey, it was out here for everyone to enjoy, so we are enjoying it. We didn't make any money off this, so it's OK. Besides, look at the other boats at anchor - all our cousins and their friends are sitting on all those boats, too... everybody's doing it, so it must be OK!"

The solution is simple (your parents taught you this when you were a kid): if it ain't yours, don't take it.

Don't blame the lawyers. Making money from people who want/need legal representation is what they do for a living. What they're doing is not illegal; what the person who took the image without permission did is illegal. It's not the same as a kid footnoting a source... oh, and the reason you were taught to footnote when you were a kid was to teach you that you can't just "take" someone else's writing (also intellectual property). You are NOT entitled to copy someone's entire book and put a footnote at the end of it, and then call it your work. Or reproduce it in any manner without the permission of the author/publisher.

Some may recall that "grabbing" others' images and reposting them has been discussed here in the past. I may have made mention that someone would be brought to task over it, and certainly stated that it isn't right... or legal. So, this is the next step. "Take" something that doesn't belong to you, and you may get to meet these lawyers. That doesn't make them (the lawyers) the bad guys in this scenerio.

In conclusion, Your Honor and members of the jury, allow me to point out the above words that are bold and italicized. We rest our case.

Jim B.

PS I talked to Bubba and his friends who were on your boat... they said, "Tell that Mister C-Dory guy that we're giving him 'credit' - we told all our friends, cousins, and neighbors how nice it is to sit out on his boat. They can't wait to do it, too!"

:roll:

On more than one occasion when we had caught copyright infringers, their defense was, "You're just a money grubber." Interestingly enough, I never asked any of them for money (although there was generally a discussion of what the fines would be) - I simply didn't want someone taking my intellectual property and perhaps using it in a way that could be injurious to my reputation. If you recall the discussion about Triton making brochures for owners to hand out to interested folks, someone brought up the idea of printing it on their home inkjet printer. That made me cringe. Something printed on a home printer may be gawd-awful color and image quality... NOT what any company wants to project as their image. While any "taking" of property may be a monetary lost for the owner of that property, it is hard to put a price on one's reputation and the representation of their work... "giving the photographer credit" when the image is badly reproduced is the last thing a professional wants. This isn't Nike - just DON'T do it.
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If I copied the following sentence from your post and used it without giving you credit, I see no problem with it. It is too short and nondescript to be considered your intellectual property.
thataway":1r6rykha said:
I post something on this forum, and someone else copies this post-- (without credit)--is that infringement?
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I can understand and sympathize with Jim’s frustration in matters like this because of the years he has spent in developing his talent in this area. The internet has changed the world. With over a billion people from just about every country in the world having the ability to look at this site, copy something and repost it somewhere makes it impossible to protect your content from infringement, if it is posted in a public site. Just about everyone here has grabbed some little graphic image from the web to use as their own in a post or somewhere. As I have said before, if you don’t want it used, don’t post it.

This thread started with an article of some low life attorneys registering content that was in the public domain, then strong arming sometimes innocent and sometimes not so innocent users for money with the threat of a law suit. They are the unethical ones here. Fortunately most attorneys are not like that.


Dave dlt.gif
www.tolandmarine.com
 
Maybe this is simplistic, but I think the basic problem here is trying to make a rigid and all-encompassing rule about such a diverse and sometimes indefinite or ambiguous subject, "intellectual property", over an incredibly multi-faceted field of human endeavor that encompasses all forms of communication and media.

Probably can't be done in a simple manner. Same kind of problem faced by those dealing with Constitutional and other forms of legal questions.

So if you want to protect it, copyright it, otherwise people can, and will, use it as they please.

And most of us can't afford to sue any and every body that violates or own perception of what is right on the matter.

And, finally, those attorneys mentioned at the onset are still wearing the "black hats" in this movie!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Hi,
I have a question, If I took a picture of Jim's Boat, had it framed and then gave to Forest could I get in trouble? :shock:
D.D.
 
D.D. - I think you are missing the point of Jims side of this issue. He has a talent very few of us on this site have. One example is this photo he created in his album.
PJLightSantaE.jpg

His argument is; it should not be used by others without his approval. I see his point and agree with him. Where he and I disagree is how far to carry that argument. I believe certain things can be copied and used from the web. I think he is saying nothing should without the owner’s permission. I believe there is also a grey area between the two and where you draw the line is up to the individual and his or her conscious.

Who is right here? Maybe Jim is more right than me but I will still use stuff I find on the web for my benefit while trying to respect a person’s intellectual property.

Dave dlt.gif
www.tolandmarine.com
 
Just browsing the link above, I think this Mr. Templeton is somewhat biased and prone to read the things he cites in a light most favorable to his point of view.

The truth is, if I draw a picture on a bathroom wall I cannot successfully sue the the guy who washes it off and I cannot sue the guy who thinks it is funny and writes it on the wall at the next rest stop. But I can file a lawsuit if I am devious and unethical enough and hope the guy realizes it is cheaper for him to give me a small amount of money rather than a large amount to his attorney on a roll of the dice that he does not control.

I do not disagree with Jim in even the slightest on the points he is trying to make. But if Jim believes these particular lawyers, as portrayed, are anything but crooked snakes, then we have a major disagreement there and the both of us are willing to leave it at that.
 
Hi,
Actually I was just trying to lighten things up a little. No ones picking on Jim. Jim's a good picture taker and seems to be a decent guy maybe a tad breathy. Some folks value their own opinion more than others. I just thought the whole thing was pretty funny. I mean Bubba family trespassing and Muburak and the turmoil in Eygpt seemed to be a stretch to make a point about intellectual property. Don't get me wrong it was all good. I think if you take a picture of something that's not yours, its not yours. I'm sure thats incorrect. If you can get someone to buy your picture thats great. I don't know if your correct in stating I missed the point, aw shucks your right I totally missed it. I think it's cabin fever.
D.D.
 
OK, let me get this right. I can burn the American flag, put a cross in a jar of urine and feces on a statue of the Virgin Mary and call it art, marry both of my dogs, watch cable tv in prison and get a college degree (my no-account brother), not shovel my sidewalk, tell someone elses kids that they cannot pray unless they are Muslim, take someone elses property for building a shopping mall, claim any kind of falsehood on the internet, and on, and on, and on.

But , if I cut and paste a picture of an anchor from a website and post it here asking the question "What do you think about this new model for my boat?" I can risk fines of up to $150,000 if this law firm holds the copyright.

I think its a sad use of loopholes in the law. Consideration should be given to its use. Anyone else who owned the copyright would be happy for the free exposure of a product.

I suppose this explains something I've seen on home improvement shows. Product names of tools, vehicles, and even art on the walls of peoples homes are blurred out. I doubt that DeWalt and Ford are worried about free advertising for their products.

As for the 3 guys in the cockpit - breaking and entering, the 2 kids wrestling - malicious destruction of property, and granny - indecent exposure and trespassing. As for the rest of the people on the boats - that's your problem. The solution is really simple : common sense.

We are far too litigious of a society. 2012 can't come soon enough. And I mean the movie not the elections. I hope I don't get sued for mentioning their movie.
 
thataway":m1t2ri5s said:
There is a very interesting article at:
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

This is copyright myths--and worth the read in light of the issues raised. I am sure that Jim did not formally copyright each of his photos, since some days he took hundreds. There is an implied copyright in the creation of work.
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Bob – I think this guy is a little full of himself and way behind the times. When I read it, I thought his terminology about the internet and public forms was a little dated.

It was written in 1994 and that is ancient in terms of the internet. From my reading of the article and his comments about it, he is so proud of the article he has made very little change to it since then and when he added an 11th Big Myth to his 10 Big Myths he refused to change the title because and I quote “I didn't want to change the now-famous title of this article”.

If Templeton is right, all of us break the law when we forward an email without permission, post a joke or puzzle on the “Daily Laugh” thread or when we send an email with a power point presentation or a video attached to it that we did not create. How many can say they have never done this.

What is lacking in the article and the arguments for and against this is
seabeagle":m1t2ri5s said:
common sense.
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Dave dlt.gif
www.tolandmarine.com
 
oldgrowth":au6ht676 said:
D.D. - I think you are missing the point of Jims side of this issue. He has a talent very few of us on this site have. One example is this photo he created in his album.
PJLightSantaE.jpg

His argument is; it should not be used by others without his approval. I see his point and agree with him. Where he and I disagree is how far to carry that argument. I believe certain things can be copied and used from the web. I think he is saying nothing should without the owner’s permission. I believe there is also a grey area between the two and where you draw the line is up to the individual and his or her conscious.

Who is right here? Maybe Jim is more right than me but I will still use stuff I find on the web for my benefit while trying to respect a person’s intellectual property.

Dave dlt.gif
www.tolandmarine.com
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All this discussion, and you "grabbed' an image that didn't have Wild Blue in it???

Yes, Dave, I have skills. I considered posting a "grabbed" image of a Marinaut half sunk, but I figured you'd think I wasn't being nice. :twisted: 8)
 
JamesTXSD":1473yz67 said:
All this discussion, and you "grabbed' an image that didn't have Wild Blue in it???

Yes, Dave, I have skills. I considered posting a "grabbed" image of a Marinaut half sunk, but I figured you'd think I wasn't being nice. :twisted: 8)
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Jim – you are always nice, even when you are being sarcastic and mean; you do it in a nice way. :)

There is no such thing as a half sunk Marinaut. :unlove

Your photo album had more than 400 photos in it so I wanted to get in and out before I was caught stealing. :crook That was the first photo I saw, (the second in your album) and it was obvious you had done more than just push a button on your camera. :photo I knew this was one you had spent some time on, so I knew I was going to be able to steal some of your intellectual properties. :crook I didn’t think you would ever be back here and you would never miss one out of more than 400. :?

I give, I’m buster. I don’t have any money, so how long will I have to spend in prison doing hard labor? :oops:

Dave dlt.gif
www.tolandmarine.com
 
Bad news, Jim. Some guy bought the rights to the Santa sleigh image on your Christmas card and demands compensation for your past and continued use. But don't despair; it's for your own good. :twisted:
 
TyBoo":3as7qoba said:
Bad news, Jim. Some guy bought the rights to the Santa sleigh image on your Christmas card and demands compensation for your past and continued use. But don't despair; it's for your own good. :twisted:
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Interesting. He didn't buy the rights from me; I did, however, buy royality free rights for non-commercial use. No despair.

I'm OK with the jokes. You have my word that I will no longer write anything here regarding copyright issues. At some point, it goes beyond an interesting discussion. My soapbox is put away.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
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