Interesting question - C-Dory Warranty

Good post Hank.

I think a most important question is how many new pre-Sea Sport C-Dorys are at dealers now, built by Fluid Marine and stand to be sold with no or at least an uncertain warranty. Not being sure how the dealers get their boats (financed by Fluid Marine? or paid for by the dealer and financed elsewhere), it looks as if they may be holding part of this bag. I'm sure any of us would take this issue into account when buying new but how about the Bratless public? Hopefully the dealers will be forthcoming about the problems that may exist.

There were a couple of folks about to buy new boats, one at Y-Landing in NH, be interesting to hear from them what they were told.

Dealers, how are you working with this issue? I can understand if they would rather not disclose this.

Charlie
 
Fluid didn't finance any boats. Dealers either paid cash for them, or financed them through a flooring company like GE or Textron, making monthly interest payments on each boat in stock until it sells.

I suppose a dealer could call up their flooring company and tell them to take the boats. Usually when this happens, the manufacturer has to buy them back, but with Fluid gone, GE would then be forced to auction the boats off. (see another thread about a couple of Defiance boats that were auctioned off) (Textron is getting out of Marine flooring, and has demanded payment on unsold boats still in stock)

Auctioning the boats off diminishes there value, for all the dealers. The uncertainty of warranty diminishes their value as well, and at this point, our plan is to close out the remaining Fluid built boats. Once they are gone we can begin ordering Sea Sport built boats for stock.

The problem is that the dealer will make far less on these boats than would be normal, and will be expected to take on far more responsibilty by carrying the burden of warranty for any minor issues that may arise.

From the dealer perspective, this whole thing is a lose / lose scenerio. And once the new Sea Sport boats start rolling out, things will get worse on boats still in stock.

As a salesperson, I will make far less as well. I know that many could care less about the company or salespeople making a living, as they will shop until they get the best "deal". The value of a good dealer really comes into play in situations like this, and we will do everything we can for the customers who bought boats from us.

So there is tremendous pressure on the dealers right now. We ordered a complete line up of C-Dory boats with the intent of selling them at a reasonable profit. Now we may be forced into a situation whre we make little money on the boats and receive no compensation for any warranty items, putting additional pressures on us in already difficult times.

A five page post trying to tell Sea Sport what they "should" do may be an interesting discussion, but ultimately may not be helpful to the dealers, as possible buyers may be scared off of buying what would be otherwise fine boats.

I think Sea Sport will examine issues on a case by case basis, and may offer their shop and services at reduced rates. Otherwise, I think it is safe to assume that there is no hull warranty on any Reynolds or Fluid built boats.

That's the bottom line, and no amount of posts is going to change this fact. At this point, everyone has a used boat, with all the risks owning used entails. Yes, I know that you bought new, but such is life. There are truly no guarantees (Except death and taxes).

So in response to Charlie- the dealer is holding all of the bag.

Postscript- It could be worse. Defiance boats was built by Palmer Marien, which offered a "Lifetime' hull warranty. Plamer is out of business now, but the boats are being built by a new company, out of the same plant, with the same prinicpals involved. They simply disolved one company and set up a new LLC and are right back in business.

If Fluid had done that, it would have really left a bad taste for an existing C-Dory owner. Fortunately, no funny stuff here.
 
Thanks Matt, I appreciate the clarification and was afraid that was the case. I really feel for you and for the rest of the dealers left "holding the bag" I hope you don't have too many boats in stock and can get out from under this cloud asap. I'm sure the Brats will continue to try to help out the good dealers (not sure if there are any of any other kind left standing) as much as we can. I would not hesitate to purchase an old stock boat, given that most all of the things that can break have a mfrs warranty...

On edit: Might be interesting and hopefully helpful to have a new Poll that explores how many of New Boat Purchasers have had issues that have had to have warranty fixes. Alo how they would rate them if they have, (fixed it myself, serious(Dealer/Factory paid), minor (dealer/factory paid). Matt would that help? I guess it depends on the results.... :roll:

Good luck.

Charlie
 
I don't have a dog in this fight anymore, but I just sold a C-Dory, bought another boat and I own a small business, so I find this topic interesting.

This group has been instrumental in helping promote C-Dorys. That gives the C-Brats influence with the manufacturer. Unfortunately, the combined marketing of the factory, dealers and this group have not been able to keep two different owners in the black.

These are tough, tough times. In ordinary times the arguments about buying customer goodwill by extending warranties on boats that you didn't make might hold some water. However, Sea Sport just bought the assets of a competitor, probably at fire sale prices. I don't know why they made that decision. They must think there is a niche for C-Dorys when the market turns around. That may be a while.

They inherited a vocal owners group when they made that decision. They are probably wondering whether the owners group is an asset or a liability, since they have been getting dinged on small warranty issues, even before they looked at what they had bought. They might consider polite requests for help that are made privately. I think they would be out of their minds to respond to an internet site and create some potential liability for themselves on a product that they didn't manufacture.

According to Matt this is a time to get an unbelievable buy on a new C-Dory. If you get a hull survey on the new boat, that will ease your mind about any major issues. Then you will have money still in your account to help pay for any minor repairs that come up.
Lyle
 
Lyle-

You're a genius!

It hadn't occured to me to have a new boat hull surveyed for peace of mind, but it makes perfect sense!

That may solve the new boat buyer issue, at least.

Thanks Lyle! :D
 
Hi

Well, I thought dealers were getting the short end of the stick and the post verifies that. I think it is hard enought being a dealer in this economy without adding more problems to the package.

I see where legally Sea Sport has no liability but again, I believe that Sea Sport needs to step up and offer something. Once dealers feel better about what is going on it will pass along to owners. If owners feel good then those thinking of buying should have no problem either.

I go back to good business sense and common sense to make things right. I don't feel good about a company dodging behind legal limits to make it's profit. It makes me wonder about their committment to good service and pride in ownership.

Hank
 
"Dodging behind legal limits"?! Seems pretty harsh to me. Sea Sport hasn't said anything on this thread and for the very obvious reasons that Lyle states above, they probably won't.

Look at things another way. Another possible outcome was that no one - including Sea Sport - bought the assets. Then those with hulls in the warranty period would be in the exact same position as they are now and no one would be making C-Dory boats at all.

I much prefer having someone continue to make these boats and am thrilled that it's Sea Sport. I almost bought a TomCat 18months ago. Two things held me back
1) The kid's not done with college yet and
2) I really wanted a TomCat hull but with an interior closer to what SeaSport makes.
Perhaps someday in the future, that dream will come true.

If Sea Sport honors any warranty on previous boats, they're doing the boat owners a favor. If they don't, you really shouldn't be angry with SeaSport but with the previous owners of the company who apparently didn't have the necessary financial resources to make it through tough times and keep the promises THEY made.
 
What Roger said, plus what Lyle said. This is a fantastic owners' site, and what I have learned and continue to learn is priceless. However, if I were a dealer or C-Dory or SeaSport, this site would seem more often than not a mixed blessing or a necessary evil or a pain in the ass. Reading many of our posts from a dealer/factory point of view causes cringing and grimacing.

I sure I will wish I had kept my mouth shut -- but yes, I did buy a new 2007 -- from a great dealer from whom I have no right to expect anything without Reynolds/Fluid there to uphold their obligations -- having every confidence Bill and Marc and Matt and other like them will not abandon me in time of great need -- hoping they know I would never want them to save me at their great expense.

Good luck to the dealers we love and to SeaSport
Greg
 
Greg, right on. A good dealer will not abandon you no matter what. And your attitude is first rate! From your location, sounds as if it may be Wefings...Hope so, they are top notch!


Charlie
 
I can certainly empathize with those of you with concerns about warranty coverage.

I bought a 16 foot C-Cory from the original C-Dory factory (Marben). Within weeks of my taking delivery of the boat, the C-Dory company was sold. I had an unbelievably bad experience with those new owners. I finally gave up trying to get a few relatively minor, but totally unacceptable AND WARRANTY-COVERED problems resolved. I decided my next boat would not be a C-Dory.

(Here comes the funny part.) So using the full extent of my business acumen, I bought one of the original 23 foot Toland-designed Ventures from Cape Cruiser. The Cape Cruiser company, of course, was sued by C-Dory and went out of business. The molds for my boat went to C-Dory, which started building them. Then C-Dory was sold. Now C-Dory has been sold yet again. What do you think the warranty coverage is or should be on my 3-year old hull? What would be "fair?" What would be smart business?

And should I hope for a dealer to step forward if I have a problem? What dealer?

I had (relatively minor) problems with a boat under warranty and was unable to get satisfaction. Am I worse off now? Who knows, but I'm optimistic and my current boat was definitely built with more care than my first one. My plan is to continue to enjoy the heck out of my boat, not to borrow trouble by worrying about things I can't control, and to keep things in perspective by remembering the plights of people with real troubles.

I truly don't mean to make light of anyone's concerns, and I hope no one has to face major issues that would have been covered had the company not been sold. But this is life, and a lot worse things happen to people on a regular basis.

Happy Boating , and Happy Fourth of July to all!
 
Seems my 5 year warranty has become a 4 month warranty. My only comment is that it is about time for Sea Sport to chime in and let us know their intentions on this issue. I know they are aware of us and following this discussion. I have no expectations, I just want to know where I stand. I do not believe I owe them the curtesy of time to think this over as I am sure they considered this prior to the purchase.
 
Hi,
My friend took a tour of the Sea Sport facility and was impressed with the people not so much with the facility. No name on the mailbox drove by it a number of times, rusty looking buildings and kind of messy. Production floor people are down to 20 from 60. I think Sea Sport is trying to keep their head above water like everyone else. I wonder if you could buy a boat direct from Sea Sport in these troubled times? My own personal opinion is that Sea Sport boats are sort of ugly boats and a lot more expensive then C-Dory's in general. Better boats they maybe but I wouldn't buy one. Especially given the silient treatment this thread has been getting. I think there has been a few folks who looked at Sea Sports and ended up buying C-Dory's for a number of reasons. I think Sea Sport probably bought what was left of C-Dory for a song. I think they are looking at C-Dory as the lower priced alternative to there current offering. C-Dory brings them a whole different maket. We certainly have some presence here as a owners group. As an owners group I would think that it might make sense for us as owners, dealers, and interested propective buyers and such would be to take a united front and put pressure on Sea Sport to keep C-Dory's name out of the gutter. Putting a lid on what might be true that Sea Sport does not owe any body a thing kind of talk. It just might be counter productive to those who do have a dog in the fight. I say we should stick together and do what we can do to keep pressure on Sea Sport to see the light. Personally to buy the C-Dory name and the molds with out any thought to honoring warranties and doing the right thing in general seems to be a bad idea. Maybe they just should not have bought C-Dory for those very reasons. Just my opinion here. I don't expect anything out of Sea Sport. When people ask my about my C-Dory I'll tell them I wouldn't buy anything made by Sea Sport for they way they handled this deal. Just my opinions here. You're certainly entitled to yours
D.D.
 
Other than relating my own experience (see above) I have refrained from offering an opinion on what Sea Sport should do. We're all pretty much shooting in the dark here.

Some observations:
1. If Sea Sport is struggling itself, maybe honoring warranties would tip the balance just enough to put them out of business. Would current C-Dory owners be better or worse off?

2. If Sea Sport hadn't bought C-Dory, would anyone else have? Would current C-Dory owners be better or worse off?

3. Maybe Sea Sport is well-intentioned but inept and shouldn't have bought C-Dory. Maybe Sea Sport is rich and rapacious and has a plan for milking what's left of C-Dory, and the plan doesn't include honoring previous warranties but does include not telling people they're not going to honor warranties. Maybe Sea Sport bought C-Dory under some kind of time constraint that made it impossible to figure out what the best plan is for dealing with warranties. Maybe it's just darned hard to know what's the best plan and internal debate continues. Sometimes even smart, experienced business people have to fly by the seat of their pants.

4. I haven't a clue what really has gone on, and think I'll refrain from guessing at this point.

5. I agree that members of the forum should let Sea Sport know that honoring warranties would be a very good idea from some (our!) perspectives.

6. Here's hoping . . .

Bill
 
Dear Sea Sport,
I sense that this topic is on the verge of becoming, shall we say somewhat ugly. The motto here is "no rules-just be nice". Help us out with some feed back before we break our own rules.
 
Much has been said about warrantees and repairs. The decision I made
to buy a C-Dory was based on a book and the best product designs that
appeared to meet needs which were available in the market at the time;
all of which were within my budget.

I had and have warrantee work needed. I followed the web address to
the 'factory site' and got this very respectful reply;
"
Art,

I am not sure how your dealer and Fluid marine are choosing to handle warranties. We cannot warrant boats that we didn’t build. My recommendation is that you contact your dealer with that and see what has been worked out.


Jeff Lindhout

President

Sea Sport Boats, Inc.

4654 Guide Meridian

Bellingham, Wa 98228

(360) 733-3380




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Art Bartlett [mailto:ka1rx@verizon.net]
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 6:07 PM
To: customerservice@c-dory.com
Cc: Art
Subject: Cracks at cockpit port seam



To Whom It May Concern;



The below noted vessel has cracks forming in the cochpit by

the port bulkhead seam at noted in the attached pix.



Vessel: 2005 CD 25

Vessel HIN: CD025075H405

Vessel Name: Sea Angel"

I don't know who would cover Cutter Marine's sales since they lost their
dealership some time ago and when I did talk to them I was referred to
the factory. The factory group did pay for all my previous work in a
timely manner and I did not have to put out any 'up-front' monies.

This latest issue I suspect I will just get out the checkbook and cover the
cost. You might say it is the price of doing business(boating). I am still
a very happy owner of a fine "pocket cruiser"; although it is 25'. I feel
blessed in that my warrantee runs out in Oct 2009 and the work needed is
not safety related. With the wealth and support of fellow Brats, I can
make informative decisions to keep my investment up to standards.

Art
 
Hi Charlie,

We bought our boat from the Outboard Motor Shop in Oakland, CA. Bill and the crew there are top notch. Later, we got to know Marc and the crew at Wefings, and you are right about their being top notch. We love doing business with both of them and hope that doing business the right way, as both do, pulls them through these difficult times.

Greg
 
Look folks,I have been hammering the value of the relationship with your dealer for a long time . It is now coming to pass that that's your best opportunity to get help and support . I cringe when I hear the "we want factory direct and factory service" folks talk about missing the old days . Well these are the new days .Welcome to our dysfunctional family . I cant tell you how much it means to me to see that we are a respected dealer, and I thank all that feel that way .We ain't perfect ,but we care. I will maintain that if a dealer can't make a profit , he [or she] can't help with issues . You have all learned some things about the business from Matt's excellent post .It has been a deteriorating situation for a long time . We are in the worst possible position as a stocking dealer . Especially if you care about, and perhaps have even become friends with your customers . If you bought a CC , you bought a great boat design that was created in less than ideal business circumstances,if you bought a Reynolds boat you bought another set of issues ,if you bought a FM boat , you bought different issues . Each of those [non CC] regimes helped us with warranty to some degree on every generation of boats because we represented them as best we could and purchased product with the intention of selling it for a profit. I cant do that anymore . The predatory or "vulture" purchaser mentality will be your manifest destiny . Service and warranty will disappear, as you all get bloodthirsty for your "great" deals on your "devalued" boats.Shop as you like , you will get what you pay for . If the new one is too expensive compared to the boat in stock that that has a nebulous warranty that you think is worth less than I paid for it , what is the right answer ?Are you doing me a favor buying below my cost ?Why do people expect warranty when they buy a used product? This whole economy has put us between a rock and a hard place . And it has changed the way business will be done for a long time .There is a lot of inventory out there . Nobody knows what the future will bring , but there certainly wont be many boats produced by SS if the existing inventory does not find a home .I don't have the answers , but I do know what I have to deal with every day .
And its not as much fun as it used to be . I long for the "new days" when folks will order a boat from a dealer and manufacturer they trust to do their best, get great service ,pay a fair price , and get the boat of their dreams .

Marc
 
Marc,

I have been staying on the sidelines on this one for a time, but after reading your post and a number of others, I guess I will finally post something. But, before I say anything at all, I want to tell you that I have personally appreciated your presence in here. Your expertise and input has been beneficial. And, while I didn't buy my old used boat from you, if I lived 6000 miles closer to you I would have. A good dealer in Alaska is like finding a pristine wilderness in the heart of New York City; it just isn't happening.

Sea Sport makes wonderful fishing machines and I don't think that they have any intentions of standing behind any products that C-Dory made in the past. I also don't see them standing behind any dealers that don't sell Sea Sports boats. If you bought a C-Dory from a Sea Sport dealer, you may have a fighting chance at getting something covered. But unfortunately for everybody else, Fluid Marine left everyone high and dry in its negotiations when C-Dory went under. In fact, while I hate to say this, it would surprise me that Sea Sport bought C-Dory to dismantle the company altogether. But, I could be entirely wrong and I really hope that I am.

Marc, you are certainly right about lots of inventory to sell. And just like other products, goods, and commodities, when there are too many hanging around, the price goes down. Sometimes way down and it is unfortunate. But, because of the circumstances, folks are going to unload boats in an attempt to survive. As much as I hate to say it, and as much as I love C-Dory, if I were in your shoes I would not buy a 2010 to put in my inventory even if someone put a gun to my head. And, I think Sea Sport may want it that way. If they even have any real intentions of making a C-Dory boat, they would rather deal with those they already have a relationship with.

However, truth be told, in my own personal opinion, the people that buy C-Dory products are the people that own C-Dorys. We get new ones after some time. Also, the people that buy C-Dorys also are the ones that sell them. Let's face it, we love our little boats. They are attractive and we praise them when people ask about them. By giving a "cold" shoulder to current owners by not following through with a contractual obligation to repair relatively new boats put a very bad taste in everyone's mouth. With C-Dory's current situation, I don't recommend anyone buying one and tell them the scoop when they ask me. This can't help Sea Sport. But, they are making that bed to sleep in.

Without a doubt, this is a scary chapter for C-Dory and I hope that everything works out for everyone. Have a good 4th.

Tim
 
FYI , the Sea Sport folks are looking forward to building boats and have no intention of killing the brand and have a lot of respect for the loyalty ,"real" dealer network and C Brats . I have had lots of discussions regarding this with Jeff and he seems to have a very realistic view and great understanding of the current situation. I have no worries that they will stack dealers to get product out the door or do anything other than patiently let the situation straighten out .They seem to have the means to do it . They are going to have a nice period to ramp up,learn the product, and build some great boats .
I personally look forward to the opportunity to sell Sea Sport/Osprey as well .We wont sell a bunch out here , but may have the opportunity to sell a few. Its a thinking persons boat , as is C Dory. That why I like selling them .
Marc
 
Have had my 22' Cruiser since 2004; bought it new from Cutter Marine. Hull warranty is now over. Happy to say that my boat (knock on wood) is as solid as the day I bought it. Only one warranty problem - with the depth finder - replaced by Cutter under warranty. As I understand, the hull warranty is for structural damage. I do not recall any structural warranty issue posted on this site (I could be wrong). These boats are built tough and time tested.

My big concern was when my dealer, Cutter, ended their relationship with C-Dory. That left me holding the bag. For a time, a dealer in Annapolis got the dealership, but they are no longer a C-Dory dealer. The closest dealer is in North Carolina - and I have heard great things about them. If I had a warranty issue, I guess they would be a contact. Would it be fair to burden them with my problem since they did not sell me the boat? As a representative of C-Dory, they should become the contact point. And I am sure they would.

I guess my point is that because of the quality of the boat, it has been unecessary to call for warranty. The strength of the line is in the quality of manufacture and the dealer. The little things that go wrong are not structural - they are in the daily operation of the "systems" in the boat, covered by their respective manufacturers and dealt with by the dealers. Those of you close to the great dealers who support your purchase are quite a lucky bunch. By belonging to this site I consider myself lucky because I have access to these fine dealers and great people who participate via this site. They give sound advice freely whenever asked. We need to continue to support these dealers to insure that they continue to thrive - for their sake and ours.

Now the C-Dory name, design, and assets belong to Sea Sport and the future of our boats remains in their hands. I/we, at this point, do not know the "plan" for C-Dory under the new owners. I guess it is possible for the name C-Dory to go away. I doubt that Sea Sport bought the assets of C-Dory just to dismantle and do away with it. I believe (and hope) that this aquisition may be just what C-Dory needs - an experienced boat builder to continue - maybe even improve - on the quality of a niche boat. The C-Dory definetly fits into the line of Sea Sports - I believe less expensive, same general design, much lighter, same type of construction, and in my humble opinion, nicer cabin lines and with an already in place line of great dealers. This could be the best thing that happened to C-Dory in a long time.

Like all of us, I intend to wait and see what happens - there's not much else we can do. I wish Sea Sport all the best and hope that they are successful with the C-Dory line. I will support them in this effort. We need to continue to support our dealers as well, as should Sea Sport.

Sea Sport is in a tough situation when it comes to the C-Dory hull warranties. They didn't build the boats. But structural warranties have not been a problem. My concern is for the dealers who have boats to sell and can not offer the 5 year hull warranty. I know if I owned Sea Sport, I would support these dealers any way possible since they will be on the front line selling my product. There has to be a solution satisfactory to all involved. I hope Sea Sport will step up to the plate and come up with something that will satisfy the needs of owners still under warranty, dealers who have new inventory, and of course themselves, so that they will continue to be solvent and continue to produce our C-Dorys.

For now, let's sit back and enjoy our boats. There are many bridges to cross - let's get there first.

Happy 4th of July! May God Continue to Bless America.

John
Swee Pea
 
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