Insurance and repowering over max horsepower

J

john8lyons

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Joined
Feb 17, 2022
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C Dory Year
2008
C Dory Model
255 Tomcat
Vessel Name
Learning Curve
The original 2008 ETECs on my Tomcat are showing their age despite my best efforts and I’d planned to repower this fall. The inline 4 Suzukis (200, 175 and 150) seem like a good match for the boat. I’d prefer to go with the 175 or 200 given that they are the same weight as the 150 and also have variable valve timing that doesn’t come on the 150. However, the manufacturer data tag for the 2008 Tomcat sets max horsepower at 300 and I’m having trouble finding an insurance company that will allow the new motors to exceed the recommended limit. Anyone know a regional (PNW/Alaska) or national company that will insure boats in cases like this?
 
What does the new Tomcat sticker say? On the 22’s I read of people here getting new official stickers from C-Dory with the higher limits presently used. Maybe you could do the same.
 
Hi Dave,

Thanks for the reply. I tried that route with C-Dory and got quick responses from Greg Little, to his credit. However, they wouldn't provide me a new tag for a boat they didn't manufacture. He said they took over the C-Dory name and molds in 2009, and my boat is a 2008. Greg said that Fluid Marine was making the earlier versions of the Tomcat. I have a request in with them about a new data tag, but since they were only making the 300HP version I'm not sure whether that will go anywhere.
 
Some times those original tags come off and get lost. Just saying you can have a new Data Tag made at any trophy engraving shop. The boats certified for 300 Hp were no different than ones tagged for 400 Hp. The Suzuki 150, 175 and 200 are all on the same block, and weight is almost identical.
 
john8lyons said:
The original 2008 ETECs on my Tomcat are showing their age despite my best efforts and I’d planned to repower this fall. The inline 4 Suzukis (200, 175 and 150) seem like a good match for the boat. I’d prefer to go with the 175 or 200 given that they are the same weight as the 150 and also have variable valve timing that doesn’t come on the 150. However, the manufacturer data tag for the 2008 Tomcat sets max horsepower at 300 and I’m having trouble finding an insurance company that will allow the new motors to exceed the recommended limit. Anyone know a regional (PNW/Alaska) or national company that will insure boats in cases like this?
Click to expand...
You get 2X 150HP Suzuki engines and flash with a 180/188Hp ECU tune for 360/376HP
 
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These flashed motors do not have the variable valve timing. With the stock 150's, I could get close to 50 mph on my Tom Cat 255. Cruising speed easily in the 35 knot range. Not sure where I would want anymore speed than that. One day, after a week at the Apalachola C Brat gathering, I raced my wife home--she was in her Lincoln Town Car, and I was in the C Dory Tom Cat 255. I won. I had only two very short "no wake zones" and could run in the lower to mid 40's. She had traffic all along the way, which kept her speed down. Distance traveled by both the boat and car was abut 200 miles.
 
Boats longer than 21 feet don't require the sticker. My 22 doesn't have one the factory left it off. At the time max hp was 100hp and the factory installed a 115hp on my boat. It now has a DF 140 on it and the factory said it was ok to do it.
 
Thanks, All. I’m guessing that flashing new motors would void the warranty? As for 150s vs 175s, I’m not interested in a higher top speed but rather a bit better midrange power and thus efficiency (or so the dealer claims about the VVT 175). Whether a slight increase in range is worth the extra cost and insurance acrobatics of hanging 175s over 150s is probably questionable at this point.
 
john8lyons said:
Thanks, All. I’m guessing that flashing new motors would void the warranty? As for 150s vs 175s, I’m not interested in a higher top speed but rather a bit better midrange power and thus efficiency (or so the dealer claims about the VVT 175). Whether a slight increase in range is worth the extra cost and insurance acrobatics of hanging 175s over 150s is probably questionable at this point.
Click to expand...
Four blade props (or the new sci fri looking ones) might get you there
 
john8lyons said:
Thanks, All. I’m guessing that flashing new motors would void the warranty? As for 150s vs 175s, I’m not interested in a higher top speed but rather a bit better midrange power and thus efficiency (or so the dealer claims about the VVT 175). Whether a slight increase in range is worth the extra cost and insurance acrobatics of hanging 175s over 150s is probably questionable at this point.
Click to expand...
DaveinRI:

"Four blade props (or the new sci fri looking ones) might get you there"

Yes flashing would void the warantee. However one of the guys who does the flashing, can easily restore to stock (more $$$$). The ECU memory will record the flashings, so this can easily be discovered.

I ran 4 blades x 19 pitch on my Tom Cat 255, even had some 21" pitch 4 blade for higher speed or better mid range when the boat was very light.
I run a 4 blade (which gives stern lift) on the Caracal Cat.

The SHARROW™ prop is very expensive: $4,999 for one--x2 for Tom Cat= $11,000 by the time tax and shipping is added in! You would have to get a lot more "mileage" for that amount! There are specific props which are best for the Tom Cat; the PowerTech OFS4 is my choice for both the Tom Cat and the Caracal Cat--gives stern lift, and good effeciency, less than $1,000. On the other hand, a spare aluminum prop will generally be found for less than $100.
 
DaveinRI and Bob:

Greg Little from NMI boats said that the current Tomcats with 175s are being shipped with 4 blade 20 pitch props. When I asked about Tomcats with 150s he said: "We would send a TC with 150’s with 19 pitch 3 blade props. We had a customer that try several different props on his TC and the 4 blade prop gave him the best performance overall. Better fuel & out of the hole."

Not sure if that was a typo on the '"3 blade props" given the rest of the statement about the Tomcats with 150s, but it seems to align with Bob's 4x19 advice. And maybe Greg is citing Bob's work.
 
So far the documented evidence that Sharrow props are the huge advantage that they say they are is pretty thin. There can be some improvement in mpg but it isn’t as great as they claim in their ads. You’d need to run your boat A LOT to get an ROI. FWIW, toroidal props are nothing new. If there was some advantage to using them, they would be commonly employed.
 
Upon closer look, the Suzuki watergrip 4 blade is only offered in 18 and 20-26 pitch, which may explain the 3x19 pitch in Greg's email.
 
john8lyons said:
Upon closer look, the Suzuki watergrip 4 blade is only offered in 18 and 20-26 pitch, which may explain the 3x19 pitch in Greg's email.
Click to expand...
All of the more reason to use the PowerTech Prop. They are available in a number of different patterns from 12" to 30", inch by inch. I have used a number of PowerTech props and they have been very satisfactory.

There may be some incentive for the factory to use a Suzuki "branded" propeller. The WaterGrip is made by Solas. I believe that the "Suzuki" branded props are made by Solas in Taiwin. The PowerTech props are made in Shreveport, Louisiana, USA. Tom Clark from the Seattle area, whose opinions I highly respect, does not "like the Stainless Steel Solas" props. I do not know exactly why. He recommends some of the Solas Aluminum props "for lower HP motors".

Here are some of the profiles of the PowerTech:
RED 4 has a classic round eared blade.
SCD4 has a semi cleaver blade style.
RED classic round eared blade
NRS more cup then RED
RXB more cup then RED but with blade surface reduced to try to keep RPM up.

Ken at "Prop Gods" is one of the others I trust and can give you good advice. Before you send your hard earned money, give Ken a call.


__________________
 
Ken at PropGods is great. I called him several times trying to get lowest planing speed possible on my TomCat. I was fully expecting to spend over $1k on new props. He recommended i try Permatrims, and if those didn't work out, he would gladly take my money. Honest guy. His advice was solid. Got everything I wanted with the Permatrims.
 
Hi John,

We faced this same decision in later 2024. Our dealer does Suzuki, Mercury and Yamaha and highly recommended Yamaha’s new line (150, 175, 200 HP) which is the same block as well). For that matter, ETEC had numerous engineering innovations and it’s a shame they were abandoned by Bombardier.

Despite the higher price, we’d advise considering the Yamaha options IF you have a dealer near you…we absolutely LOVE our Level 2 choice (no joystick or Autopilot) with digital throttle, shift and steering (just like the jet you last flew on). Lose all those leaky SeaStar Liquid Tie Bar seals and contraption apparatus for extra room on the bracket. The option of engaging Single Lever Control (with auto RPM synchronization), esp when combined with engaging Trim Assist (which automatically engages the % Trim you like by either boat speed or engine RPM that you program). If I can do that, then any other idiot can do it too. It makes Eileen 100% more comfortable by simplifying getting up on a plane easily, automatically and safely without having to even look at the RPM/SPEED/TRIM gauges. Even if you do not have an Eileen, I promise you will love it.

Turning on Single Lever throttle also hard locks the right throttle lever in the Neutral position, which allows Great control in really, really rough conditions since you FINALLY have something SOLID IN POSITION under your right hand half to guide your left fingers for FULL solid throttle control while slamming around in steep breaking waves. You have likely dealt with that more than us. We don’t like those kinds of conditions and welcome any help we can get. This is THAT kind of help!

If you fish and want an Autopilot, ONLY Yamaha designs, builds and (six year) Warranties the entire contraption end to end with exclusive Yamaha service, rather than having SeaStar AND Garmin AND etc claim it’s the other guys fault that it just it don’t work on your boat. Be done with that. The best Invention, by far, since Sliced Bread. Buy it if you want a fool proof AP system

Our Five Star Yamaha dealer owner (Key Marine in Pensacola) knew somehow without me telling him that our 1010 C-Dory TC255 was only approved by the factory for 4 cyl motors to 350 HP (twin 175s) with our bracket and transom. There is no sticker on our boat. He spent hours on the phone but would absolutely not consider installing engines on our boat that were beyond what the boat maker approved. I deeply respected them for that, and I personally would not even deal with an outboard engine dealer who would even consider installing an engine beyond that approved by the boat designer. Forget your insurer…what does your insurer know about boat design of your boat, and what makes you think your insurer would ultimately cover a loss that is easily proved to be caused by bad decisions on the part of your repower dealer?

On this single tiny issue I slightly disagree with Bob Austin, my great friend and mentor who has taught me more about trailer boats than anyone in my life (despite being super happy on our 13th trailer boat in 42 years of marriage). This issue should be discussed in a friendly, debatable way over a beer rather than an argument, as always.

We wish you luck as always in your pursuit of boating nirvana, and hope you ultimately find one like we eventually did. And all that said, we still have FOUR other sets of props in the garage besides the Yamaha OEM P17 on the boat right now, so realize that nirvana in various places and conditions is not always cheap where one choice is the Best all the time, everywhere you Adventure to!

Best, and PM or call if we can help with anything, and Safe Travels!
John
 
Thanks, All!

Everyone's input and the willingness to share experiences in this community is deeply appreciated.

I ended up ordering two fly-by-wire Suzuki DF150s yesterday. Very much looking forward to smooth, quiet, reliable power and will be giving Ken at PropGods a call to get the best prop match.

Electric steering was really tempting but the price point (~$12k for the Dometic / SeaStar system with the Suzukis) was a bit beyond what I wanted to add onto the repower bill on a 2008 hull. And this way I can look forward to 175s and electric steering on my next Tomcat, which will have the raised cockpit deck and improved fish box drains.

One step closer to boating nirvana!
John
 
Those great choices might be TWO steps closer to nirvana!
best,
John
 
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