Gas or Diesel for towing my 25?

S

Socrateur

New member
I know that a drive train such as the duramax/allison combo is ideal for heavy duty towing for those who tow frequently. But from a cost vs. benefit perspective, does this rig make sense for someone who will only tow occasionally, such as four to six times per year covering, say, 3000 miles total? I'm looking at a 3/4 ton truck and it will not be a daily driver; it will be a dedicated tow vehicle which will sit idle for months at a time between uses. The boat will be towed up and down 7% grades and over 5000 foot mountain passes. Typical route will be Hwy 5 between SF bay area and San Juan Islands, 840 miles each way.

I'm wondering if a V10 gas engine makes better sense for my needs. My concerns about going diesel are numerous: the diesel rig costs $8k -$10k more and diesel fuel costs more than regular gas. The new diesel motors are a lot more complicated than they used to be with all of the emissions stuff, low and high speed turbos and the like. As a result, lower gas mileage than before. I've read that diesels don't like to sit for long periods of time, and maintenance is more expensive.

The only con for V10 I have is even worse gas mileage than diesel. Anything else? Again, I realize that diesel is king, but keep in mind my limited use parameters. Still go with diesel or go with a V10? Thanks.
 
I bought a used F-250 diesel this past spring from a friend at work. It's a 2005, had 35K miles and was in decent shape. Paid low Kelley Blue Book and they were happy because it paid off their note.

It will pull my '25 when I finally get one and I currently pull a 20' enclosed car hauler trailer with my custom VW in it. I've gone over Snoqualmie Pass and it felt like it wasn't even back there. I don't drive it as a daily either, as I have a work car. I do however, drive it on weekends or when I need to as it is my primary vehicle (the wife has her own). It gets a solid 18-19mpg on the freeway, not towing, but I'm not light on the pedal either. The diesel will last you a lot longer than the gas engine, but you're correct in maintenance is more costly.

For me, the diesel was the way to go. I wanted the torque, the longevity and the tow capacity and the higher mpg's. Fuel is more costly now, but it gets better mpg's so it's a trade off IMO.
 
Jay,

I think your reasoning is very sound. the only C-Dory that begs for a diesel is the TomCat. That extra 1500-2000 lbs. makes the difference. My 92 F-250 with 460 gas V-8 would tow an 8800 lb. boat anywhere, except past a gas station! For your described useage, a 3/4 ton with a big V-8 or V-10 seems the best choice. Try to find one with limited slip diff, 4.10:1 gearing and preferably 4x4.

I, like Mark, love my F-250 Powerstroke and all it's great features but think it might be overkill in your case. Good luck.
 
I've got both a diesel and a gas burner I tow with. My diesel is a 1996 Ford 3/4 ton 165,000 miles. I use to pull a 34' fifith wheel with it I no longer have. The diesel sits sometimes for 3 months and as long as I keep a battery tender on it I have no problem with it sitting up. I'd definately recommend the diesel over the gas burner especially with the 25' C-Dory. In addition to the diesel the Allison transmission would be a great asset.
 
I love my duramax/allison for towing my 6,000 lb boat/trailer over the coast range here, but for occasional towing, a 3/4 ton pickup gasser with rated chassis and drive train capacity to tow your rig should be fine. In today's market you should be able to steal a gasser. Having a diesel last 300,000 miles doesn't make total sense unless the rest of the truck is also designed with that life, and my sense is a lot of power accessories, plastic stuff, seats, etc are not designed to last that long in my 03 chevy duramax. For that matter, these evolving light duty pickup truck diesel engines are very complex, and the competing manufacturers are continuously tweaking the control chips for horsepower and torque "bragging rights", which is harder on the engines. We'll see how long they last.
 
OK, here's a view from another perspective. For the same reason you're interested in C-Dorys, lets not go overboard on a tow truck. Bigger is not better.

First, all you need to tow a C-25 is a 350 V-8. You do not need a V-10 or a diesel. If you want to get one, fine, the C-25 will give you an excuse. However, we've towed Journey On for 12,000 miles with no trouble with a 2006 Ford 250 5.4 L V-8 and a 5 speed auto. You will have to shift down going up hills (and down, too.) And trucks are made to do that.

Second, you do not need a 3/4 ton. Yes, I have one, but that was the best deal I could get in two days. A 1/2 ton will do just great, especially for low mileage towing. And it'll save the heck out of gas when you're not towing. The Ford (Dorf?) gets 8 mpg towing ( as does every other truck I've towed with,) but only 13.5 mpg running around town.

Also, there have been a couple of cases of the Ford 5-speed auto giving trouble as documented in C-Dory posts. A good 4 speed auto is adequate. Again, we've not had trouble, but Judy is good at praying. By the way, I thought Duramax-Allison was a GM product? A neighbor has one and he loves it.

Third, get good brakes on the trailer. We have electric/hydraulic brakes and they work great.

Boris
 
Yes, the Duramax/Allison is a great combo. It keeps our travels from being white-knuckled... except for the drive through Houston, but that's a whole different matter. :disgust We bought our truck with towing our 25 in mind. You may know that we travel a lot... and the truck is not just our daily driver, but is our only driver these days. When not towing, we generally get 20 mpg or better; towing cuts that down to around 13 +/-. I have hauled other boats/trailers with vehicles that were marginal... oh, well within the tow rating, but it sure didn't feel that way once on the road. We have been very pleased with the performance and security we feel with the truck - while towing and not.

Keep in mind what a transmission costs if you are hauling that heavy load over the mountains. Maintenance is higher with the diesel, such as oil changes. We've put 55,000 miles on our truck in just over two years; most of those miles have been towing. Only normal maintenance so far. If the current diesels are more complicated, we're not seeing that (our truck is a 2006, btw).

In the time we've owned this truck, we've seen diesel prices lower, then higher, then lower, and now considerably higher than unleaded gas. Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of the oil companies and where it will go next? :roll: (Yes, that remark is tongue-in-cheek for those who work in the oil industry, know someone who works in the oil industry, or own stock in the oil industry.)

With what we've learned from many miles of towing our CD-25 (new tires all around last week - truck and trailer), I'm glad to have the capability of our diesel pickup (and some would tell you that even more is better).

Good luck with your decisions.

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
jay, i would look for a good used diesel truck. I have a Ford F250 7.3 liter diesel, and am quite satisfied with it. I also have a Ford Expedition. The diesel will run circles around the Expedition when towing, both in terms of power and mileage. I came back from a trip to Eastern Oregon, pulling a 2000lb tent trailer, and got very close to 20 mpg. I stayed close to 55mph, and didn't push it.

The expedition drops down to 12mpg or less on a trip like that.

In terms of expense, i am of the opinion that it is a wash. In terms of how much fuel I am using, the diesel is a far better performer.

Steve
 
Heck, I've GOT a good used Diesel truck. 1/3 better mpg than the new Fords. 14-15mpg towing the C-Dory at 65+ speed, 12-13 mpg when I was towing an 8000+ lb. 5th wheel, honest 16-17 mpg empty around town and I've regularly seen over 20 mpg on long freeway trips while empty.

2001 Silverado with the Duramax/Allison combo. If yer interested in going this far (San Diego) for a truck, PM me. Got lots'a pix. About 50k miles on it, oil sample results, new tires, lots'a goodies. Boris (Journey On) has driven it. Too long for him (extended cab long bed) He'd need a hinge to park his boat in his designated parking spot....

Of course it is a pre emission requirements truck so if you're a true "greenie" it might not do.

Don
 
I have a f350 with the v10 and 4x4. I did not buy it it was given to me so I can't complain to much. That said it only gets 12mpg empty on the highway with a light foot. But the boat or trailer or both for that matter and its 8mpg up hill or down. The same truck in diesel gets 20mpg empty and 13 to 14 towing. I just do not see the reason not to have a diesel unless some one gives you a truck. you can never have to much truck.

Lets see a 200 mile trip with boat at 13 mpg is 15.38 gallons of diesel at $3.05 today near my house = $46.90
Gas engine at 200 miles at 8 mpg at $2.59 at the same station is 25 gallon for a total of $64.75

Thats a savings or $17.85 dollar for every 200 miles.

so if you come up and back to the san juans once a year thats 1680 miles divided by 8 =210 x$2.59=$543.9 for gas

1680 divided by 13mpg =129.23 x $3.05 =394.14For diesel or $149.74 per trip. which is gas for the boat.

It nice to say " cost more for fuel" or "not that much in better is gas milage " but you have to crunch the numbers, then make the best decision for you. with new gas engines getting 200k plus miles the engines are out lating the truck itself so the diesel long life is not as much of a bonus as it once was unless, like Jim, you drive 30,ooo and year or more.
 
We have an '06 Dodge Ram 2500 with the Cummins diesel and love it. Our previous tow vehicle was a 2001 F-150 Supercrew with the 5.4 V-8 and we were disappointed with it due to poor mileage (9-10 mpg pulling a 22) and lack of engine braking in the mountains.

With the Cummins we got 14.5-15.5 going to and from the NC CBGT towing at 60 mph through the WV and VA mountains and the tow/haul setting kept me from using the brakes on long, steep grades. In fact, while on cruise the engine only downshifted twice on the whole trip.

The best mpg we ever saw on the 5.4 V-8 was 16.1 empty and it even dropped to 12 mpg towing a 3,000 pound pop-up camper. The diesel gets 17-18 around town, 20-22 on the road (not towing) and 18-19 pulling the pop-up.

Yes, the price of diesel fuel is more, but the torque, better mileage and piece of mind on steep grades (both up and down) really make up for the extra dollars to fill up.

By the way, gas is 2.29 and I just filled up with diesel for 2.89 here in Ohio!

Regards,

Nick
"Valkyrie"
 
I bought my current F-250 SuperCrew 6.0 Turbo Diesel for one reason only - longevity and expense. I've had gas engines pulling large loads (perhaps not nearly as often as you're going to pull the 25'), but certainly there is no doubt at all that mountain terrains place the heaviest toll on any engine. IMO, the diesel is going to far outlast the gas engine in all categories (except price of fuel/gal). Diesel engine parts are much heavier, sturdier, and deliver a generally much higher lbs/ft of torgue than a comparable gas engine. Gas engines (fuel/compression) result in nearly twice the manifold exhaust temperatures of a diesel engine - adding to a diminished life cycle when compared to a comparable diesel which delivers more torque, at half the exhaust manifold temperature, at a far lower RPM. I prefer diesels over gas engines for longevity.

Diesel
Low RPM
Low Boost
High Volume of Air
Lots of Warm Exhaust Gases
Slow Spool Up
Almost No Back Pressure on Throttle Close

Gasoline
Variable RPM
High Boost
Variable Volume
Hot Exhaust Gases
Quick Spool Up
Hard Back Pressure on Throttle Close

Stolen without permission from:
http://www.wcengineering.com/articles/dieselturbo.html
 
I agree 100% with Valkyrie.

I have been driving diesel pickups since 1986. Am now driving a 2007 Dodge with the Cummins engine.

Towed my C-22 to NC 3 weeks ago from PA. Averaged approximately 14 mpg.

Coming back to PA last week (left the boat in NC) I averaged just under 18 mpg.

I enjoy driving diesels; I drove tractor-trailer for 29 years. My Dodge has a 6-speed manual transmission and there is not ONE hill I have to downshift for when towing my C-22.

On top of that diesels hold back better when descending hills due to their higher compression ratio. My '07 has an engine brake so it really holds back! :D
 
As expected, the responses to my inquiry have been top notch and helpful. Either way, neither would really be a wrong choice.... however, I will not make the choice of continuing to use my '96 4Runner V6; that would be wrong!

IMG_0893_Small.jpg


This worked adequately pulling the boat from Anacortes (where I took over from a professional who towed the boat from Bend) onto the ferry and around Lopez. However, whereas I appreciate Boris' minimalist philosophy, I think even he would agree that I need more than this!
 
We purposefully purchased a 2001 7.3 L Ford Diesel Excursion just as a tow vehicle (Tom Cat or C Dory 25). I also tow the C Dory 25 with a 30 foot RV, which has the V 10--about the same vintage (beefed up transmission and hitch). The Excursion gets up to 20 mpg towing just the trailer on the freeway. Towing the C D 25, we are about about 13 MPG. The RV goes from 8 mpg to 6 mpg when towing the C Dory 25, where as when towing the 22, the difference was not noticable.

There are plenty of the 7.3L Fords around--and they are relitatively cheap currently--with good mileage and good economy. The V 10 is also an excellent engine. We have mentally gone through the question of gas vs diesel if we upgrade our West Coast vehicle--and if I were to buy a truck, I would go with the diesel. There are lots of good buys in new diesels if you go that way. But, as pointed out--the 2008/2009 trucks are not quite as fuel effecient as some of the older trucks.

I am also considering upgrading a 1 ton van conversion (Road Trek) 1993 Dodge. Having towed the C Dory 22 with it--I felt that was the limit--and would put in an upgraded transmission if I were to tow the CD 25. With the 5.2L V8 I would have to do some serious down shifting on the grades with the C Dory 25.
 
I realize that eNORMous's post is a bit tongue in cheek--but seriously many trucks come with the class III hitch (5000 lbs tow weight; 500 lbs tongue weight)--and folks don't check. You really need a class IV hitch for the weight of a CD 25...
 
Either a gas or diesel pickup will work (Dodge, Ford or Chevy)if you have enough HP & torque. One item that should be mentioned above all else is the safety aspect of towing. You don't want the tail wagging the dog. You need a vehicle large and heavy enough to control your load. I don't own a C-Dory (But would like to) I tow a 22 foot alumaweld I/O boat and a Lance 10' self contained camper in a 2005 Dodge 3500 (1 ton) truck. The truck is a diesel with a 6 speed manual transmission which I have equipped with an exhaust brake. I am in the Jackson Hole, WY area every summer and going across the Teton pass (10% grade and curvy), I put the truck in 3rd gear with the exhaust brake working going down hill and rarely touch the truck brakes and am able to keep the righ at 30 MPH or less. Its a very comforting feeling having the diesel with the exhaust brake in these types of situations.
 
Back
Top