Fountain of hydraulic fluid today

M

matt_unique

New member
I assume the problem is air in the system, but I wanted to bounce it off you guys. My helm unit had a lot of play during sea trials. Although I instructed the dealership to do a proper bleeding with the Sea Star high pressure bleeding system, like many other things I asked them to do correctly the only added fluid to the reservoir. This seemed to address the play in the steering.

I found fluid leaking while it was still in the driveway. I checked the reservoir and it was not overfilled (at least as referenced in the helm reservoir).

Today I had the helm hard over for an idle speed maneuver and fluid literally sprayed out of the reservoir like a fountain for a solid 2-3 seconds. I could clearly see it coming from under the cap. After cleaning up the mess I removed the cover and more air pressure came out but I could not otherwise reproduce the problem.

Is this just a classic case of air in the system? Is the only correct fix a high pressure bleed with the proper Sea Star bleeding system?

Thanks
 
Matt, never had that problem with the Sea Star on the old 22 but did bleed it several times myself. It takes two people, one at the helm with the quart of fluid and the hose/adapter and one at the engines (I had twins on the 22 as well) to open/close the bleed screws. Not hard but takes a few minutes. I'd run the whole quart into it just to make sure.

Sounds like you had air in there...

Charlie
 
If you're having air come back out of the reservoir, it will drive hydraulic fluid through the vent cap. On Journey On, I found the only way to get all air out of the lines, actuators, etc. was with a power/pressure bleed. I would suggest you check all the fittings for signs of leaks before you get the bleed done. Hand bleeding doesn't generate the velocities needed to drive out trapped air (I guess.)


Instead of just saying " I want a pressure bleed" you might ask to see the equipment. Sea Star sells their own bleeding package.

Boris
 
Agree, the power bleed is the answer--but be sure that the pump is OK. I had the same thing happen--gave a burst of power in hard over reverse, and it blew the seals in the pump. Teleflex overnighted a new pump, and Wefing's sent a tech with the power bleeder up. I suspected that maybe the system was not properly bled in the first place...
 
I had an amazing adventure yesterday on the Tomcat. I will post that in another forum but I also had another fountain of fluid episode.

I reversed engines while hard to starboard and man it sprayed out from behind the reservoir like you would not believe. Good thing the last two times out I have worn work boots because they have been covered both times (to give you an idea of the spray volume). After this one though I had some steering trouble due to lack of fluid. I had only about 10nm left in the 73nm trip but it was a challenge to steer of course. A good reminder to keep a bottle of hydraulic fluid on the boat.

I will be putting her in for this warranty fix and a few other things ASAP. However, no shop in my area has the high pressure bleed system. At least none that I could find yet. I will keep looking around...but if I can't find a place with the system, what are my options? Is there any way the system can be bled without that machine?

Bob - you mentioned your pump had the seals blown - did the fluid shoot out from the reservoir only or did it come out from the seals? My hydraulic fluid is definitely coming out from under the reservoir cap.

Thanks
 
I definately had fluid on the back side and around the shaft--so my presumption was that the seals went. The pump was replaced and the defective (?) pump was sent back to Teleflex/Sea Star. Either way, you should not have this happen. In my case I had complete loss of steering. If you have had this back pressure, there is a good chance that the engines are no longer aligned thru the "liquid tie bar"--Mine were 40 degrees off (about as far as one could have them).


I would go for helm pump replacement, and not use the boat until this was resolved, since it is pretty rough to "hand steer" a 150 Suziki!.
 
thataway":15xk6bj7 said:
I definately had fluid on the back side and around the shaft--so my presumption was that the seals went. The pump was replaced and the defective (?) pump was sent back to Teleflex/Sea Star. Either way, you should not have this happen. In my case I had complete loss of steering. If you have had this back pressure, there is a good chance that the engines are no longer aligned thru the "liquid tie bar"--Mine were 40 degrees off (about as far as one could have them).


I would go for helm pump replacement, and not use the boat until this was resolved, since it is pretty rough to "hand steer" a 150 Suziki!.
Click to expand...

Thanks Bob.
I would have done whatever needs to be done. How would I determine if it was just a matter of bleeding/air burping vs. a bad helm pump? It is odd that the spills happen only when in reverse...clearly it is forcing air/fluid through the system. Not sure of the best way to proceed with these symptoms....
 
Since my problem happened in reverse also, it leads me to believe that there is either some check valve, or seal which is not up to the task and fails. In my case we just replaced the entire pump--I had the catastrophic failure when about to take a group boating. I had an alternate boat, but did not load it until I put a call into Teleflex. I ended up talking to a Vice President, and he had no reservation about contacting Jeff Messmer (who was still at C Dory) to arrange overnight air transport of a new pump, and Wefings to send their tech up to bleed the system. Since then I have had no problems over several thousand miles of use.

I don't remember if I was spining the boat hard (one engine forward/one reverse, or both reverse)--but in either case, it was obvious that something gave.....and it had to do with the steering torque.
 
Thanks Bob.
I spoke to an authorized Seastar shop today. I described my symptoms in detail and they called Seastar. Seastar also thought it was air in the system causing the problem. They thought that if a seal had blown, fluid would be leaking steadily. I have found fluid three times. The last two times it was spraying from the reservoir when in reverse. As a first step they suggested having the system bled. If that does not work, replace the pump.

I will let you know how I make out.
 
Matt:

Sorry to hear about your steering problem. Here's a very useful document on Seastar hydraulic drives which should come standard with every Seastar system:

http://www.seatechmarineproducts.com/download/Seastar_Boat_Steering_Technical_Reference.pdf

(Why doesn't the url display right?)
It explains hand bleeding in detail and says that bleeding is easier using their "Power Purge Jr." device (basically, an electric pump). The advantages of the pump are 1) The system can be bled by a single person instead of two people and 2) Bleeding is quicker. They don't say that there are any advantages beyond these two. It seems that hand bleeding works just as well if you are willing to put in enough time, which might mean bleeding more than once. That's good since the pump costs $750!

Roy
 
I tried hand bleeding the SeaStar steering after I installed the autopilot. I tried 5-6 times, and the steering was always soft. Read the Teleflex instructions verrrrry carefully. I could steer the boat, but clearly there was some slop in the steering. Finally had the hydraulic system power bled. All the difference in the world.

I think the hydraulic lines were not level enough to get all the air out with manual bleeding. On Journey On the went up and down as they pass down the starboard side, and I don't think that enough velocity was generated by cranking the steering pump by hand.

All that said, there is nothing magic about the factory bleeder. It's just a pump and reservoir with the appropriate valves. Since they use hydraulic steering on big boats, I assume that any marine shop that services the hydraulics on those boats has a bleeding cart. Additionally, the Teleflex hydraulic fluid, as they tell you, is just aircraft fluid. One can buy this at any airport at 1/4 the price of the Teleflex oil. Different colour, but the same fluid.

Boris
 
You of the 4 shops I have contacted, including an authorized Seastar Teleflex shop, none have the power bleed system. They all say the manual bleeding with two people does the same thing as the power system but requiring a little more time. Perhaps they say that because they don't have one but that has been the consensus from the shops I have spoken to.

I will be paying close attention to my steering of course. Prior to this last burp that squirted a lot of fluid my steering has been fine in terms of feel and responsiveness. I am waiting to hear back from a few other places and I will see if they have the pump.
 
Hi,
Being just a lurker I'm having trouble understanding why the dealer and or the factory is not out on a field service call with the factory bleeder or a new pump to correct an obvious warranty issue. The dealer who sold that boat if he is still a dealer should be getting a call from the factory saying make this right as this should have been done before delivery. For a boat that costs more than a row home in Phila. this is a pitiful display of a Missouri or now Washington state warranty which states when it breaks you get to keep both halves. I no longer want to buy a new C-Dory. I'll buy a used 02 or 03 as suggested by some since the C- Brats offer better support than the company who manufactured the product. Thats sad!Considering the current economic conditions and especially the boating industry; dealers and manufactures who step up to the plate to make things right will win in the long run from the testimonials of satisfied customers. I don't believe a word of the marketing drivel I see on new products. I base my purchasing decisions on real customer reviews and feed back. Even if the end user had something relating to getting air into the system the boat I assume this boat has a warranty. Thanks to the honesty I see on this site I ever be disappointed by a warranty failure on a new C-Dory.
Thanks from a used wanta be still lurking
D.D.
 
dave deem":158vehhc said:
Hi,
Being just a lurker I'm having trouble understanding why the dealer and or the factory is not out on a field service call with the factory bleeder or a new pump to correct an obvious warranty issue. The dealer who sold that boat if he is still a dealer should be getting a call from the factory saying make this right as this should have been done before delivery. For a boat that costs more than a row home in Phila. this is a pitiful display of a Missouri or now Washington state warranty which states when it breaks you get to keep both halves. I no longer want to buy a new C-Dory. I'll buy a used 02 or 03 as suggested by some since the C- Brats offer better support than the company who manufactured the product. Thats sad!Considering the current economic conditions and especially the boating industry; dealers and manufactures who step up to the plate to make things right will win in the long run from the testimonials of satisfied customers. I don't believe a word of the marketing drivel I see on new products. I base my purchasing decisions on real customer reviews and feed back. Even if the end user had something relating to getting air into the system the boat I assume this boat has a warranty. Thanks to the honesty I see on this site I ever be disappointed by a warranty failure on a new C-Dory.
Thanks from a used wanta be still lurking
D.D.
Click to expand...

It's definitely a warranty issue and C-Dory will pay for the work. I purchased from a horrible dealership in Long Island NY (400 miles away) so in my case I will always do the leg work to find the repair facility then approach C-Dory to pay.

I would not let the selling dealer near the boat under any circumstances. I'm glad I bought new, but I would suggest doing your homework to find a good a dealership with a good reputation. I don't care if you have to pay to have a boat delivered from the moon, it is worth every single penny to avoid the aggravation of a bad dealership.
 
The question here is who rigged the boat and set up the steering , and was it altered and by whom ? This is apparently a rigging issue.
Marc .
 
I have bled and installed a number of hyraulic systems. The difference in the power system is that there is a resivoir, and you don't keep have to be pouring in fluid to the pump, plus it takes considerably less time/one less person. Definately worth having for any shop who does this regularly. I suspect that a system could be made for much less than the Sea Star factory cost.

Marc--maybe you have had some feedback on my pump failure (almost 2 years ago)--and was that a rigging error, or failure of the seals? I sent the pump back with your tech to go to the factory for an "Autopsy".

Dave Deem's comments might be a little harsh, since the factory has really not had time to respond...but if I was looking for a used boat, consider that the change of ownership was in 2002. Although the 22's seemed to have little problems, the 25's did have some from the get go under the new ownership until about 2005. On the other hand, if this is a Teleflex/Sea Star defect, then it is not C Dory's problem, and Matt had the engines changed, and I believe the hyraulic rams also changed, so it may be a dealer problem. I wrote a private letter to Rich Finlay (New CEO of C Dory), and suggested that C Dory vet the dealers and capabilities very carefully as one suggestion for improved image.
 
thataway":2n8uirru said:
I have bled and installed a number of hyraulic systems. The difference in the power system is that there is a resivoir, and you don't keep have to be pouring in fluid to the pump, plus it takes considerably less time/one less person. Definately worth having for any shop who does this regularly. I suspect that a system could be made for much less than the Sea Star factory cost.

Marc--maybe you have had some feedback on my pump failure (almost 2 years ago)--and was that a rigging error, or failure of the seals? I sent the pump back with your tech to go to the factory for an "Autopsy".

Dave Deem's comments might be a little harsh, since the factory has really not had time to respond...but if I was looking for a used boat, consider that the change of ownership was in 2002. Although the 22's seemed to have little problems, the 25's did have some from the get go under the new ownership until about 2005. On the other hand, if this is a Teleflex/Sea Star defect, then it is not C Dory's problem, and Matt had the engines changed, and I believe the hyraulic rams also changed, so it may be a dealer problem. I wrote a private letter to Rich Finlay (New CEO of C Dory), and suggested that C Dory vet the dealers and capabilities very carefully as one suggestion for improved image.
Click to expand...

Hi Bob,
You know I was thinking about your situation. Maybe your pump was fine but needed to be bled? In either case, your new pump (and thus bleeding) fixed the problem.

I emailed Teleflex directly describing my symptoms and they replied to say they think it's just air and would be fixed with bleeding. We'll see how it goes with the bleeding.

I think Dave did not realize I was not near a dealership who would normally fix such things on behalf of the factory. I had the engines swapped but the original hydraulic rams were the correct model for the 150hp engines. (I verified this during my inspections). I know the problem was with my dealership, I specifically told them to bleed the system and when I made the final sea trial they said they just added fluid.

Thanks for the info. I will let you know if the bleeding does not fix the problem of back spray when hard over in reverse.
 
Back
Top