Fountain of hydraulic fluid today

Obviously dealers that are inspected through Gucci shades by a guy driving a Porsche with his Italian soled shoes may not be the best choice as to where to purchase a new boat. On the other hand there are dealers that are dedicated to the satisfaction of their customers and are still here serving them while the other guys (both dealers and Gucci wearers) have been voted out of business by either the factory or the customers...or both!

A new boat purchased from a reputable dealer is still and always will be one of the best choices from a standpoint of customer service and warranty support! Remember, the factory hull warranty does not transfer to the second or subsequent owners!

Fear not fair "Lurker" you shan't be left abandoned or on your own if you decide to purchase new, (at least not from us)!

Charlie Holtom, Wefing's Marine, Inc.
 
Dave Deem,

I challenge you to come up with one circumstance where the factory has not stepped up to the plate regarding warranty issues. Granted, there have been quality issues over the past few years and hopefully the new ownership will address those issues in short order but I can tell you that they've always stood by their product and their warranty. Why don't you ask the owners of CatyMae or FishTales (now C-Hawk)? It may have taken awhile but they both have new boats.

Peter
Owner of 2005 C-Dory 22 and proud of it!
 
Bob , yours was a bad seal in the helm . We saw it with some of our other boats in that time frame as well [Twin Vee] It was an OEM problem . Just replaced a leaker in a 2006 19 foot C Dory the other day . Nobody's perfect , its how the problem is handled that counts......
Marc
 
Hi,
I wanted to correct the last line of my previous post. Thanks to the honesty I see on this site I will never be disappointed by a warranty failure on a new C-Dory. Reasons such as this and the Fishtales type of tail and how the whole C-Brat brotherhood seemed to have to get involved to get results are just too much for me to want to plunk down the dollars for a new C-Dory. Combined with the way the newer boats are being built I don't get a good feeling.
Harsh, maybe, rigging problem, maybe, but as Bob suggests the new owners really need to make sure that the dealers know and are up to the expectations of the market and not just be internet type box or boat pushers. The dealer needs to stay involved to protect themselves and the end users and ultimately C-Dory's reputation. It just seems to me as a prospective customer possibly spending 55 to 70k that in my opinion the jury is out as whether the new owners will be able to do that. I have noticed a number of posts that speak to bleeding of the hydraulic steering that it does not always seem get the attention from the dealers it deserves. Since losing steering is a least in my world a serious safety concern. C-Dory ought to require or offer training for dealers and at least require the dealer to have a power bleeder as part of a basic dealer requirement so that your steering can be the best it can be. At any rate I'll
be looking at used boats instead of new until the new owners have had a chance to sort through what have been the problems.
D.D.
 
The last time I was on the boat I had the steering system bled by an authorized Seastar shop. Seastar tech support also thought my problems were caused from improper bleeding. The bleeding was to be the first step.

Well when I arrived today and turned to port I had the tell tale "bumpy wheel" indicative of air bubbles/low fluid in the system. I will add some fluid in the morning and use it for the day but I suspect I need a helm replacement.

I'll keep you posted on the resolution.
 
Well today I was again hard to starboard, put it in reverse, and the fluid sprayed out again.

So the bleeding did not work. I can't think of any other possible fix other than to replace the helm.

Will contact Frank Monday to get the approval for the helm replacement (or some other currently unknown fix).
 
I would suggest going directly to Teleflex. I don't have the vice president's, who I talked to , name present with me. However Teleflex if definately aware of this problem--especially if there were bad seals. Your boat was made within that peroid. The dealer would do the installation, but Teleflex would pay for it, and send the new pump.
 
thataway":20pq0ogc said:
I would suggest going directly to Teleflex. I don't have the vice president's, who I talked to , name present with me. However Teleflex if definately aware of this problem--especially if there were bad seals. Your boat was made within that peroid. The dealer would do the installation, but Teleflex would pay for it, and send the new pump.
Click to expand...

My first email when I returned today was to Teleflex. I'll see what they have to say.

Thanks
 
Well the latest round of steering trouble shooting proved that the helm pump is bad. They tested the pistons (disconnecting them from the hydraulic system) and layed the engines slightly over to see if they would continue to move. Seastar told the yacht yard doing the work that if a piston was bad, the engine with the bad piston would move all the way over within 30 minutes. After several hours only one piston moved a slight distance. Not sure if this is even enough to consider it a bad piston. Assuming no, the only thing left is the helm pump.

They then had to rebleed the system. I launched the boat to bring it back to my mooring.

Well we had strong winds today. As I was backing away from my trailer, fluid once again sprayed out of the helm and I completely lost steerage! I had zero steerage except for what I could do with the counter rotating engines. I was close to getting blown onto shore and into other boats. It was a ball buster 10 minutes but I managed to avoid any disaster and grabbed somebody else's mooring. I called the yacht yard and the mechanic working on my steering returned with a boat to tow me back to the dock.

To add insult to injury, this yacht yard charged me for more hours than the original estimate. They said they were following the instructions from Seastar so I hope C-Dory will reimburse the cost.

The fun is not over....I determined that by replacing the lost fluid, I would get steerage. I now know it will blow out while hard in reverse (i.e. backing away from a trailer or dock in strong winds). I tested it for 15 minutes straight before I left the dock. I was gun shy after my first experience of near disaster. As I was heading back from the mooring to the dock, we were hit with a micro-burst storm cell. I mean fire and brimstone. The wind was blowing hard and the waves kicked up in addition to close lightning and driving rain. I honestly thought for a short time the winds and waves would capsize my inflatable. I was able to get to shore after a hairy ride of careful balancing. At one point I had water pouring in over the bow and had to lean back to lift her up. I was cruising along just over headway speed. Anyway - I made it back. As I was walking up the ramp, I heard the Pan Pan call on a nearby VHF, a sailboat just off the ramp capsized and sank! The harbor master arrived to rescue two people standing beside their keel. Within a few minutes the only visible portion of the sailboat was the bottom of the tip of the bow.

So...morale of the story...unfortunately a reminder and not a new experience for me....trust no one...get all estimates in writing with written instructions that say you will not pay a cent above the estimate without executing another document signed by both parties.

I look forward to putting this day behind me....and the damn steering is still not fixed.

I'm fit to be tied....
 
Sort of hard to figure why Sea Star (Teleflex) did not replace the pump--or at least have appropiate testing done immediately. Especially since this is a "known" problem. Basically exactly the same problem I had 2 years ago--and Sea Star immediately air freighted overnight (Friday to Saturday) the new Helm pump. I think the moral of this is to go right to the top. I was boiling mad when mine failed-as yours did-and I had out of town guests. I asked for the president of the company--and got a VP who helped me immediately--plus I had phoned Jeff Messmer and had him contact Sea Star at the same time. (Fortunately I had another boat to take the guests in).

At this point I assume that Sea Star is sending a new pump--ASAP--but it is a holiday weekend, so that means at least Monday before anything is done. I would go right to the top with your story and see what can be done....including billing back to Sea Star for all of the costs, since they were in the loop from day one!.
 
Discovery has had three different helm pumps.

The first installed by C-Dory 12/2005 at initial rigging.
The second installed by C-Dory 9/2006 when the first one failed.
In 3/2007 Wefings did repair work on the second pump to fix a leak, at the helm.
In 3/2008 the helm was again leaking and I contacted Teleflex. They sent a third pump to me and I have replaced it. I have not had a chance to get the boat back in the water to try out the third pump. Also the seals in the port motor ram have failed. Teleflex also sent a kit to replace the seals. I have not got that done yet.
 
Thats interesting. To date the helm/steering pump on Journey On has not leaked. thataways pump has leaked, but, Bob, was that on your 255 or 25? The others listed in this topic have been 255's. Werfings did mention a 19.

The gist of the above is that the pressure needed to control a pair of 150 engines with twice the mass, power/torque of a single may be too high for the Teleflex steering pump. Or at least marginal. One can put a lot of torque into that steering wheel, and the resultant pressure, instead of just swiveling the motors, may blow the seals.

Could one find better seals, or back them with a teflon ring?

Boris
 
The helm pump seals leak was on the Tom Cat 255, and within the first 20 hours of operation. It happened the first time I backed down hard (maybe to 2000 rpm--nothing which I would expect failure--I was just backing to a dock.--straight--so there didn't seem to be a lot of load, but with counter rotating 150's, it may be significant. No probelms with the pump on the 130, but that is an older unit. Don't know for sure, but it may be pumps built around the 2006 mid year which were a problem--that would fit mine and Matt's. I have had a number of boats with hydaulic steering and although I had problems, they were mostly related to the builder having left small amounts of metal in the copper lines. In this case the lines are plastic. No metal was observed in the fluid after failure.

This Sea Star system is advertised as suitable for up to twin 300 hp outboards up to 60 miles per hour. The Tom Cat would be running half the HP of the rating. One would think that there would be a very significant margin of safety, since steering is critical, and if there is failure, it is a major safety liability for Sea Star/Teleflex.
 
This may not help but in reading the SeaStar tech ref manual I had a couple of questions and this is the answer I got very promptly from them.


> 1. Is your HC 5345 OK for twin Honda 150hp outboards? Your info only
> mentions the BF135.
>
> 2. On page 176 of your hydraulic steering tech reference manual
> Question 3. 3rd para you say that the hoses should have a gradual rise
> FROM the helm TO the cylinders. My helms are several feet above the
> cylinder so how do I achieve that?

The book is incorrect, a gradual rise from the cylinder to helm is what
you are looking for. A single cylinder is fine in this application.

Cheers,
Greg
 
Well I had the helm pump replaced today. I was using a new yard (the last yard turned out to be crooks) and the new yard did a great job. I mentioned the last yard I used, and they said it was not the first time they have heard people complain about them.

It was an unusual experience it seems to have excellent service. They also had the Teleflex bleed system which made the bleed process quick and painless. The mechanic went for a test ride with me. I cranked her in reverse up to 3000 rpm and no spray out of the helm. I ran it through the paces, with engine hard over and high rev in reverse. Time will tell but hopefully the new pump did the trick.

Thanks for the help and advice.
 
I realize this is an old thread but I wanted to mention that the replaced helm pump did the trick. I had no more leaks or problems for the rest of the season.

I came across the yacht yard that originally did the steering work and padded the service invoice without my approval (Winter Island Yacht Yard) yesterday at the New England Boat Show. I was shocked to learn they were a Ranger Tug dealer. :shock: Wow...buyer beware.

I was pleased to see so much activity there though for Ranger and I also spoke with Bruce Perkins (Ranger Sales Rep). I think they had as much if not more activity than any other brand at the show. Bruce mentioned he reads this site and Tug Nuts. He also mentioned Jeff Messmer was planning to attend for a few days. I hope they do well. It was one of the busiest boat shows I have seen in several years. If I could own two boats one would be a Ranger...
 
i have a 2008 TC-255 and had a very similar situation today. i started drifting toward a kelp bed and threw the girl in reverse with a hard over to the starboard, low and behold oil started pouring out of the forward helm. i am not quite certain if it was coming out of the filler cap or the hoses at the rear of the helm pump, regardless something failed. oil was everywhere.

this is clearly not an isolated issue and i was wondering if you gentlemen could provide me with the quickest way to get this issue resolved protocol wise. thank god for asymetrical steering and good weather today as it could have ended much differently.

i love this little boat but i have many minor problems that could have been mitigated had the employees who assembled the vessel exercised more professionalism in the build. you would figure for the price paid quality control would be a top priority. could you believe i found a set of knee pads and a disposable breathing mask in the hold under under the sink?

-shane

ps. i hope someone from c-dory management reads this message and takes the initiative to resolve this issue. quality and customer service is all that will keep you afloat sir. check your six.
 
catnap":3carc9se said:
i have a 2008 TC-255 and had a very similar situation today. i started drifting toward a kelp bed and threw the girl in reverse with a hard over to the starboard, low and behold oil started pouring out of the forward helm. i am not quite certain if it was coming out of the filler cap or the hoses at the rear of the helm pump, regardless something failed. oil was everywhere.

this is clearly not an isolated issue and i was wondering if you gentlemen could provide me with the quickest way to get this issue resolved protocol wise. thank god for asymetrical steering and good weather today as it could have ended much differently.

i love this little boat but i have many minor problems that could have been mitigated had the employees who assembled the vessel exercised more professionalism in the build. you would figure for the price paid quality control would be a top priority. could you believe i found a set of knee pads and a disposable breathing mask in the hold under under the sink?

-shane

ps. i hope someone from c-dory management reads this message and takes the initiative to resolve this issue. quality and customer service is all that will keep you afloat sir. check your six.
Click to expand...


Hi Shane,
Welcome to C-Brat's Nation. You have an OUTSTANDING vessel. 1000 miles logged on mine over the first season and I love it. Sorry to hear about your steering problem. As you can see it has been very common but to be fair the steering issue is with Sea Star not C-Dory. It's an easy fix and you will be back in business.

The best protocol is to approach Frank Walter at C-Dory (frankwalter@c-dory.com) with a description of your problem and a request to have the helm pump replaced. He will probably ship you a replacement pump. Check your local providers to find an "Authorized Sea Star" shop that specifically has the "Sea Star power bleed system". The power bleed system is an expensive tool that properly and quickly bleeds our steering systems. If none have this system, they will need to bleed it the old fashioned way but by all means try to get it done at a shop with the right system.

By the way - there is almost a hidden compartment behind the helm station but in front of the bow bunk where the fluid will collect. If you go into the forward bunk and face aft, on the starboard side of the vessel, reach down with your left arm toward the center along the floor. This will hopefully make sense once you are there...take a rag and wipe up the fluid in this spot. If you look around in there with a flashlight you will also see what I mean.

There will probably be a few QC problems you need to fix or address. If you do a search on Tomcats you will find the usual suspects. So far these issues have been relatively minor. Minor QC issues are the status quo for nearly all brands at all price levels - including those approaching and over $1M based on my research and first hand accounts from other Captains. So far the factory has a solid reputation and track record for taking care of their owners

Don't let these minor problems distract you from the big picture. (We all went through this by the way). You have a well made vessel that will provide great experiences for you and your family on the water. I went aboard other well known Cat brands at the New England Boat Show. Even larger and dramatically more expensive Cats did not come close to the design and space engineering found on the Tomcat.
 
By the way Catnap, shoot a PM to Tybo to set you up with a picture directory and post some pics of your vessel.

Ha ha - that's a reminder for Charlie's Tomcat as well!
 
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