Firearms onboard

All guns are compromises, so realize that there is no "ideal" gun. Look at your situation, your skills, and decide what works best for you. Anytime someone says the "ideal" defensive gun is X -- well, it makes me wonder...

A .410 seems rather light for me. I wouldn't use one on a black bear. For a brown bear, it is my understanding that most folks who hunt brown bear use a .375 H&H or larger. A .410 is a peashooter in comparison.

For defensive purposes, I'd recommend a 12 or 20 guage. Pump or semi-auto, your choice. Semi-auto shotguns are far more finicky. Pumps are more reliable, but they can be short-stroked, causing a jam. For a pump gun, there's nothing better than a Remington 870. For ammo, use 00 buck for 2 legged varmints within 25 yards or so -- after that you'll need slugs. For brown bear, you'd best have some real fine solid slugs. As for birdshot, no thanks. Not enough penetration. Do you have to worry about your backstop? Sure do. Those recommendations are not just my own -- they are what I've been taught in defensive shotgun classes.

You can miss with a shotgun. At room-sized distances even birdshot will not spread out more than fist-sized from a 20" barrel. The long barrel does help you line up the shot, but you still have to point it.

Skip the pistol grip, or folding stock shotgun -- get something with a full stock.

Shotguns do have downsides. First, it can be hard to bring a shotgun to bear in the close confines of a small room or boat. Second, you need two hands to operate the shotgun. You can't easily keep a perp covered with a shotgun and talk on the phone to the dispatcher at the same time. You can't easily operate a flashlight and a shotgun at the same time. There are forends that hold a flashlight, but plan on spending $250 or so for the forend alone. Shotguns are also harder to store than a pistol. It is also much easier for someone to take a long gun away from you than a pistol -- I've taken several handgun retention classes and been trained in both disarms and retention.

Pistols are far, far weaker than a shotgun. They also require more training and practice in order to hit your target. But they are easier to store, easier to conceal, and you can operate a phone or flashlight at the same time.

Pistols, rifles, and shotguns each have their strengths and weaknesses as defensive arms. Personally, I keep a loaded pistol in my lockbox. YMMV.

As for my credentials, I'm certified by the NRA to teach Basic Pistol, Home Firearm Safety, and Personal Protection. I'm also an NRA certified Range Safety Officer. I've taken approximately 200 hours of firearms training from organizations including Sigarms Academy, Smith & Wesson Academy, Lethal Force Institute, and most recently Cumberland Tactics (i.e., Randy Cain who often teaches at Gunsite). I'm a member of the IDPA and have concealed carry permits from 5 states.

As for fish bats, that requires you to get with grappling distance -- that's something I'd rather avoid if possible.
 
I bolted a handgun safe in our vessel. It has a spring loaded front door, and "finger impressions" so it can be opened in the darkness. Also, nice for storing passports, wallets, checkbook, insurance papers etc. One of the better additions to our vessel as I feel more secure in leaving certain items on the boat.
 
Well, having never really been on a bear hunt, and knowing there could be similarities to a wild bore hunt.... just remember to never be the slowest member of your hunting party, stay in the middle, and simply pray for forgiveness for running past your brother ....if the need occurs.

As for laws, guns, and friendships.... I always felt it best to say....wow...that was a blast....I wonder who will come get us out... rather than can ya come get me out.

Let's just keep loven our boats and hope we never have to pull anyting for other than just the sport of it...

Yes, 12 gauge 00 buck does go thru the cooler bottom and the bottom of an aluminum boat if you felt the need to play a prank on your friend who is deathly afraid of snakes and you hide just one simple small one in the cooler buy his beer... and it waste beer too.
 
I got my Geco flare gun today. It's 26.5 MM, and some googling shows that to be an international standard, even though WM sells 25MM. The surplus rounds available are about $30 for 10 rounds, plus $20 hazmat shipping. They probably work, but are out of date by decades. The outfit I bought it from says that it will fire current 25 MM rounds, but that remains to be seen. I might just make the 12 ga. adapter to keep it current.
As for my personal preferences, I'd like the Rem. 870 marine if push came to shove,and I had more room, but I think my S&W 686 will fit the bill in a pinch. I've always been a fan of double action revolvers for the panic situations when all you (or a loved one) have to remember is to pull the trigger.
 
M1911

You are right, guns are like boats, they are all trade-offs. One of my favorite weapons is a standard Army 1911A1 45ACP.
 
use 00 buck for 2 legged varmints within 25 yards or so --
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Like I said , the average distance in a house shooting is 6 ft. If I was going into raid a pot farm or bust up a chop shop, raid a iraq family compond ( military, police work is the basic for most of the training you have listed) then yeah 12 ga. oo buck after the flash bang and torpedos full speed ahead. but for the protection of you, yours, and your home in your home. leave the 12 ga for the ducks and teach THE WIFE how to handle a .410.

As for bears, no I did not mean bird shot. I was thinking oo buck and then the slug. Just what is the caliber of a .410 slug. more then .300 I think.( I can't find it) thats a big piece of lead.

After i get enough range time again (I have not shot a pistol in years) Then I will carry.

most people who own guns, type does not matter, don't pratice enough if at all.

as for fish bats.. its like that line in that knight movie "how do i beat him?" ...."With a stick while he's asleep"
:shock:



when all you (or a loved one) have to remember is to pull the trigger.
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You forgot AIM!!!
 
As for bears, no I did not mean bird shot. I was thinking oo buck and then the slug. Just what is the caliber of a .410 slug. more then .300 I think.( I can't find it) thats a big piece of lead.
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No, it's a small piece of lead without much powder behind it.

A .410 slug is about 110 grains and has about 760 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle. In other words, the .410 slug is lighter in weight than the typical 9mm pistol bullet (which ranges from 115 gr to 147 gr). A .410 slug is NOT similar in ballistics to a .30 rifle bullet. A .308 rifle bullet is typically 168 grains and has 2500 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle. Don't look at the diameter of the projectile and think that tells you all you need to know about the ballistics.

A 12 gauge slug is about 440 grains and has about 2500 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle.

The typical rifle for hunting brown bears is a 375 H&H, shooting a 300 grain bullet, with 4200 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle.

A .357 revolver shooting a 158 gr bullet has about 540 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle.

In other words, a .410 shooting slugs is not much more powerful than a handgun. It would be completely inappropriate to use a .410 as a defense against bear.

I have taken defensive firearms training from nationally known instructors. Not a single one ever recommended a .410 shotgun for home defense. A .410 is certainly better than a pointed stick. But if you are going to use a shotgun, get a 12 or 20 ga.

This topic has been covered in many books, including "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob and "Effective Defense" by Gila May-Hayes. I have not seen a single book by a noted author that recommends .410 ga for defensive purposes.

Many training academies teach defensive shotgun classes, including:

- Sigarms Academy
- Lethal Force Institute's LFI-II class includes combat shotgun
- Gunsite Academy
- Blackwater
- Defense Training International (John Farnam)

Not one of these courses uses (or allows the use of) .410 gauge.

Furthermore, most .410 gauge shotguns are break-open guns, not pumps or semi-autos. In other words, if you want to go with .410 you will likely be limited to 2 shots.

Finally, if you really do envision being in a conflict within 6 feet, you'd better train at how to retain that shotgun. A person that close may well be able to grab and control the barrel before you can get a shot off.

but for the protection of you, yours, and your home in your home. leave the 12 ga for the ducks and teach THE WIFE how to handle a .410.
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One of the instructors in a defensive shotgun course that I took was a 5' tall 110 lb woman. She worked a 12 ga Remington 870 far better than I. It's about technique, not brawn.

The courses that I have taken are not for military or police. They were not designed to teach SWAT or military tactics. The were designed to teach defensive techniques to armed civilians. Many of the academies that I have listed have two sets of courses -- one set for law enforcement and one set for civilians. I'm not law enforcement, so the courses that I have taken are for the armed civilian. I suggest that you take one.

There are far, far better choices for personal defense than .410 ga.
 
I've found the .410 to be adequate defense against errant pheasant. We wingshoot off a friends English Field Setter, and found that the 12's and 20's were not very sporting given the 5 and 10 yard shots we were presented with. We now have a .410-only rule when shooting over this fabulous dog.
I think the 28 gauge makes a better beginner gun with its nearly double shot and range, and little additional recoil. It's way more fun for a beginner to actually hit something.
 
Years ago anchoring in some remote places in Florida and sharing these with rough looking neighbors I started to consider protection. After a lot of reading and thinking a short 12 shot-gun loaded with buck shot seems to be ideal. It is not illegal to have on board, it sure could repel most boarders and I am sure that most shady types would know the sound of a round being chambered.

I think the flare gun we all carry is also a big deterrent at close range. If some one is boarding my dory over the stern or side into the cockpit I think the flare gun would slow him down or stop him cold. Just my thoughts
 
m1911 , I was not trying to say that a 12 ga won't work. but its not the end all of all guns. Many people don't even know about the .410 ( which can be had in more then singles and doubles) and not that many are made anymore. its a light gun that will not blow thru the bad guy and the wall and little jimmy , which is were this thread started. As for bears. I have always just yelled at them and they leave, but thats small black bears. I was recommonding the 410 for home /boat use only not bear hunting.

I am sure the classes you are teaching/taking are just fine and you know everything about the issue of home defence, but the average shot is 6 ft and you have about 1/2 a second to take it. you only have to worry about "grappling" for a gun if you try to "detain" the guy, bad idea. home ownes should shoot first and call later. And yes it is about technique, if you pratice which the majority of people don't. As for the x# of ft lbs, It means nothing if you don't hit the target. yes a women can handle a 12 ga. but it s a lot easier on them with a 20 or 410. and being comfortable is the way to get folks to pratice. Iam sure you have heard that "you will preform as you pratice" Do you know about the dead cops with the empty shells in there pockets? good story.

From your "M1911" sign on, I would say that you are one of those die hards that still think the colt is a usefull combat gun. I joined the service just as the 9mm was coming on line and I dont know how many gunnys refused to learn the beratta. until I smoked them on the range, combat and target. its that hole " i still have round and your reloading thing. some people will call me crazy but sometimes what everyone else is doing/done is not always the right answer....but hay don't sell your colts and 12's just yet.
 
Althoiugh we are armed most of the time we are in the RV or Boat, For Alaska, it was a 12 guage marinized pump shotgun. I also carried a .44 mag (realizing the limitations) with a special load and 300 gr bullets and in the speedloader one set of 240 grain bullets and another set of 300.

As for flare guns: Good way to set your boat on fire, but not really an effective weapon. Do not shoot bullets or shotgun shells out of flare guns, even with adaptors. The breech locks are not strong enough and a diseaster will ensue. There used to be an insert called the "Machete stopper". This was taken off the market because of law suits.

I agree about the 410 shotgun. It would not be an effective weapon. Incidently the .45 and .410 shotgun can be fired with the same specialized pistol.
There are some cheap pistols and a .45/.410 smooth bore barrels for the Thompson Contender Centerfire. Be very cautious with any short barrel piece which shoots shot gun shells. Many states class these are illegal shotguns!

If you are going to carry a hand gun--or any weapon, practice, and practice and take the stress fire type of courses! In all of our boating travels (over 225,000 miles) we have never "pulled" a gun on anyone, but we have had weapons at the ready on several occasions--once when we came upon drug transfers in the channel Islands off Calif. We stayed down below and the druggies went away. Other times were in 3rd would countries--but we still are prepared if necessary. As for Coast Guard--we just say "the guns are here".

Regards
 
1911's don't shoot , people do. but 9mm do carry more rounds, are easier to field strip, and don't jam near as often. the 1911 colt was a break thru weapon..in 1911..and has a big following because of that. everyone makes parts or custom parts for them..copy rights ran out long ago I believe. All the old timers in the military brass love the dam things and grew up on them so they did not want to see them fazed out of service. combined that with the berrettas having a bad slides the first year( the slide would break and fly into your face, they fixed it years ago) and they got a bad rep. A beretta or any modern 9mm based on it is a better combat weapon then the old 1911. people have written books and articles telling you I full of sh!t, but I am not . the 9mm carrys more round per mag and has less recoil making it easier to stay on target and repeat the last shot or double tap. The old guys will yell all day about # of lbs of knockdown force, but being the average combat pistol shot is 12 ft. That is what we taught in our classes, you are going down with the 9mm. if you want more power get one chambered to .40 smw. no tools to field stripe and clean,easy to put together. I could do it in under 30seconds with my eyes closed,teat we had to pass to teach on the range. i know that there is no other pistol i would want in combat. oh and the safety will not fail if you drop it, they will (rarely) on a colt, I have seen it happen. the berreta is far safer.
 
Byrdman":35t1pv4f said:
OK... so no one else in here is for outrunning your brother and or wife instead of outrunning the bear?
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How true....most often the cause of injury or death is by someone you know..(how do you spell domestic violence?)..in my work I've seen it too often.

As to Byrdman's question......I don't have a brother, I do my absolute best to keep my wife happy :wink , and the bears around our place normally run away when they see you!
 
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