Dual outboard engine training for a former sailboater

K

KMatthews

New member
Hello Group!
As a new-to-ownership of a C-Dory 22 with double outboard engines (twin Honda 40s) and as a former sailboat owner (accustomed to an auxiliary diesel engine) I am looking for someone with expertise in operating a twin engine C-Dory to provide training in learning the nuances of precise maneuvering in constricted conditions. Let me explain; I recently bought a C-Dory 22 in Port Townsend, Washington (my home town). Luckily, the boat was already at a slip at Point Hudson Marina (in Port Townsend) which was also made available to me to acquire (doubly fortunate in that there is about a two year wait for moorage space here). Unfortunately, the space is in a less desirable portion of the marina in that exiting the marina-dock entails precise control in a very narrow passage between docked vessels and a rocky shore (not navigable during lower water levels) with a tight 90 degree turn through a 'gate' between two dock sections. No other docking spaces are available to reduce the need for such precise boat control. Anyone in the Port Townsend area that could provide instruction-training-mentoring in addressing this situation? Any C-Brat belong to the Power Squadron who may be interested in training me? Any other suggestions? Thanks in advance.
 
The number one proponent of twins on a CD22 lives very close to you in Sequim. Get in touch with Harvey, aka Hardee on this site to see if he's available. He just loves spinning his boat on a dime using only the motors.

:thup

Peter
C-Dancer
 
KMatthews":2rtls7d6 said:
. . .exiting the marina-dock entails precise control in a very narrow passage between docked vessels and a rocky shore (not navigable during lower water levels) with a tight 90 degree turn through a 'gate' between two dock sections. . . .
Click to expand...

Been there (literally) and other places like it. Add wind and current, and you've got yourself a fine time.

Having twins and knowing how to use them (hands off the wheel!) will really help. Lots of fenders help. Best of all, it really helps to have another person on the boat who has a boat hook and understands what you are trying to do at the helm. If you're single-handling, you just have to get that much better at the helm (and maybe add a few more fenders :lol:)

I agree, contacting Harvey is a great idea. He's a very nice guy and loves his twins.
 
Welcome abroad. Many of us are ex-sailors.

Each boat is going to be different. The maneuvering of twin engines, is far easier if the props are counter rotating and widely set apart. The video, above assumes this. Also it assumes that the right side engine is a clockwise and left is counter clockwise. Some outboard boats (Catamarans more frequently) are set up the opposite.

The narrow spacing, and often same rotation of the C Dory 22, does not allow as precise control, as noted in the video or in some other "instructions"

"Boat Docking Close quarters Maneuvering for small craft" by Charles Low, is a good book--but more for inboards--still worth having in the library. Chapman's has a section on docking and maneuvering.

A technique I use when getting any new boat is to pick a time, where the water is calm, no current or wind. Put out a couple of fenders, tied closely to an 8 foot 1" x2", closet dowel, or a boat hook. Use this as your imaginary dock--and practice coming into it.

In your case, you want to make a right angle turn as your approach the dock--but the boat will still have some sideways drift--due to lack of a keel. We don't know all of the details of your dock--so specifics cannot be given.

Harvey is spends time in Port Townsend--and has a twin engine boat--he would be the logical person to help out.
 
Hi KMatthews, Congrats on the "new to you" best boat in your life, C-Dory. I believe you are the new owner of "Ticket", and you have a great boat. It was well taken care of, and I had the pleasure of running along side several times.

AND yes I love my twin 40's. I would be more than happy to be able to help. You do have a tight spot, but it will be easy as pie once you get the knack.

Yes what Bob said is true. IF you have a big wide boat and counter rotating OBs it might be easier, BUT, you have a small boat with a flat bottom, and you can spin it in it's own length most any day on the calender. It's like having a bow thruster. I often tell folks who ask, I have 2 bow thrusters, they are just mounted on the transom :lol:

As mentioned, you have to learn to steer without touching the steering wheel. Simple, like driving a tractor with steering brakes. One side goes forward, the other stops, or goes in reverse. Basicaly, equal power to both sides in opposite directions, will spin you around. As Bob said, each boat is a bit different, depending on the props, the reverse might take a bit more spin(RPM) to do the twist. The boat will spin on an axis just forward of the twins. You can adjust forward or lateral movement by adjusting the power as it goes through the turn. Keep in mind that the first and formost rule of turning without the steering wheel is that the OBs must be aligned straight fore and aft. IF they are turned, it will be a whole differnt reaction.

Take a sturdy plastic bottle, fill it 1/4 with sand, and go out into some open space water and toss the jug overboard, and practice going around it. You are going to love it. Glad you got the twins.

Hope that helps some, until we can meet and try it for real. By then you may be a pro twin pilot.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
Harvey, you embody what C-Brat-ness is all about! :thup

For the OP, Harvey is a good guy who will enjoy sharing his boating knowledge with you, and you will have a new lifetime friend.
 
:oops: :wink: Ah shuckins yoall, now yur makin me all flubergusted.

But,

Kim, you are welcome to come ride or run with me anytime. By the way, Brooks has my number if you like. Right now my service, phone and I-net are a bit flakely, but i will get back to you when I can.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
My 25C Dory has twin 90 Honda's ,I bought it used and had I been able to buy it new would have got the starboard engine clockwise and port engine counter clockwise. That lets each engine neutral the side walk of the props. Someone said in a reply that the most important thing is to have the engines straight ahead and that's very true and the only thing I want to bring up to you is that the engine in reverse has way less grab with the prop than the forward engine prop so a little more throttle is needed on the reverse engine ,but it will work in same rpm but not as positively. Remember with no keel and a lot of freeboard even a small breeze will screw it all up. Three robins passing by will have a effect. When I win the lottery and order my new dory I'll definitely have twins . Ran the upper Mississippi (St.louis St.Paul) got 3.5-4 mpg coming down at 1300-200O rpm and did the same on the Tennessee last year coming down its length and got the same mpg. Running from Chicago down the Illinois last year got tangled with a tow line rope that completely wound around the starboard engine and it was sure nice having the other one to pull out of channel and start cutting the tangled line free,I was dragging so much line I had to tilt engine carefully and what a mess to cut thru. Good boating ,Jim on the 'Bobcat'
 
Jim Lefers":1lqsnpdo said:
My 25C Dory has twin 90 Honda's........ had I been able to buy it new would have got the starboard engine clockwise and port engine counter clockwise. SNIP'
Click to expand...

My twin 2014 Honda 90s were not available w/counter rotating props, which
I desired. I believe this option starts w/115 hp and up for Honda.

Having had counter rotating props in twin larger boats, I was sold on it. To my
relief, in the 26 Venture, it didn't seem to matter not having counter rotation. I
think smaller C Dorys would behave the same.

Aye.
 
Foggy":1ycdhsfz said:
Jim Lefers":1ycdhsfz said:
My 25C Dory has twin 90 Honda's........ had I been able to buy it new would have got the starboard engine clockwise and port engine counter clockwise. SNIP'
Click to expand...

My twin 2014 Honda 90s were not available w/counter rotating props, which
I desired. I believe this option starts w/115 hp and up for Honda.

Having had counter rotating props in twin larger boats, I was sold on it. To my
relief, in the 26 Venture, it didn't seem to matter not having counter rotation. I
think smaller C Dorys would behave the same.

My understanding on this is smaller twin engines do not generate large enough
torque forces on the boat. As both props spin clockwise, the torque forces via
the engine translates to the hull as a counterclockwise force*. Apparently, not a
big deal on smaller boats hence no counter rotating drive shafts in smaller
engines. So counter rotation of props is not primarily intended to help low speed
maneuvering your boat; it's a secondary benefit.

Aye.
Click to expand...

*For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
 
The Twin 40's are not counter rotating. Prop walk is negledgable, mildly noticed in reverse, not even in forward, at least with my props.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
As has been mentioned, the typical C-Dory doesn't have a lot of boat below the water line and it has a lot above it. As a result, it's pretty easily blown onto or off of a dock in the wind. Also, when heading directly into the wind, the bow can rotate around very quickly if it gets pointed a little off of the wind direction.

As an aside, you might consider other possible solutions to your problem depending on the geometry of the local docking, etc.

To me, the biggest thing about docking easily is to get the lines and fenders set up properly and set up well in advance. On my 22, I had a 50 line that ran from the bow cleat and down each side. I'd tie that off to the hand rails. I also had a 25' line on each stern cleat. Before approaching the dock, I'd make sure that a bow line and stern line were free and hanging into the cockpit on the side of the boat on which I intended to dock. That allowed me to leave the boat with a line in either hand and have complete control over the bow and the stern at the same time. The length of the lines allows me to tie off one end of the boat while maintaining control of the other. For me, this made all the difference in the world. In addition, if you have your own slip (or even a slip that you will be moored at for a week or more), putting fenders on the dock (as opposed to the boat) can make life a lot easier as there's nothing to do regarding fenders on that side of the boat. I just make a string of fenders and tie them off at each end to the cleats. In many long term dock leases, I add additional cleats to the dock where I really need them. In some cases, I leave a line or two on the dock that are already at the correct length. For my Tomcat, I have a dock line attached to a heavy duty (>2000# breaking strength) snap hook. I snap the line into a towing tie-down eyelet at the stern of the boat and the line is tied to a dock cleat at the ideal length for that dock. That allows for a quick connect to the stern and I only have to tie down the bow line(s).

In addition to docking prep things as mentioned above, don't forget how useful the lines themselves can be in docking in tight quarters. A line on the midships cleat (just below the helm or port side forward window) can be very useful when wind or current wants to blow you off the dock. With such a line, you can approach the dock fairly close to parallel, get that line cleated off and forward momentum (or putting it back into gear at idle) will hold you tight against the dock until you can get tied off. Such a line can also (in some conditions) be used to make a tight 90 degree turn if you have a partner who can loop it around a cleat and hold it there for a few seconds. That said, as Harvey points out, you can almost turn the boat on it's own axis with one engine in forward and the other in reverse.

There have been times where I put my boat on the end of the dock in a T-position, and got off and hand lined the boat into the slip in really tight quarters. Sure it may take an extra minute or two and it may not look like the work of a "pro" but it's a safe and fairly easy way to assure I got to the slip without damaging another boat. The longer docking lines are useful for this. In some places (Pender Harbour for example), I'd walk my boat 100' in reverse with no engine power as I worked my way down a long line of boats rafted and docked on both sides of a long narrow slip. A boat hook and lots of fenders made this the safest way to "escape" the tight quarters. There have even been times (in very strong winds) where I docked in the opposite side of a slip to let the wind blow me on and then used long lines to pull the boat over to the other side of the slip or to even rotate the boat 180 degrees within a slip. My main point is that often there are other ways to safely navigate tight quarters in a marina that don't depend on expert boat handling from the helm but rather on the judicious use of fenders, boat hooks and lines.

When I first got my 22, I'd never boated in anything bigger than a 14' aluminum fishing boat and I made a good number of mistakes docking. Every early docking approach was an adventure and often docking was made into a bigger adventure by those who wanted to help but whom were not properly instructed by me and who were not under firm voice control. The worst ones were when people would jump off with only a stern line in hand when there was a stiff wind on the bow. E.g. they took the only end of the boat I had control over into their control and left the bow to swing out of control in the wind. Now when I approach a dock and there are "helpers" on board, unless I know they've had some experience, I usually just say, "No need to help. I've got it." In some cases, when help would be appreciated (e.g. a very strong wind blowing me off the dock), they get very detailed instructions well in advance of the dock - e.g., "The very strong wind is going to try to blow us off of the dock. As a result, I need to approach it at higher speed than normal and I need your help to keep it from blowing off the dock. I'm going to...., you're going to get off with BOTH lines in your hands and get a quick loop around the stern cleat. Then I'll power forward if necessary and that will pull the bow in, then I'll get off and handle the bow line. Whatever you do, don't jump unless the boat is very close to the dock - like within 6" and ALWAYS leave with both a bow line and a stern line in hand. I'll let you know when you can go. It may take more than one approach, etc. etc." With friends or inexperienced boaters, it typically requires WAY more instruction than one might think to get the desired results. The two biggest issues are people who get off with only the stern line in hand and the people who make an leap for the dock when you are still a few feet away from it. So under anything but the WORST conditions, I just handle it all myself.
 
Excellent points from Roger! A couple of other tricks. In a permanent slip, it often is wise to put roller fenders on the outer corners of the dock. The "L" shaped fenders work--but the rollers are much easier on the boat.
514653.jpg


I use colored lines for docking, red, black, gold, green, Blue and white. I can tell novices what color line to grab or take ashore.

I try to avoid any one jumping off the boat. This can be dangerous, both by an injury on the dock, twisted ankle or falling into the water.

I rarely use the bow cleat, except as a spring line, I use the cleat by the forward pilot house windows. when docking single handed, or with a crew, if possible I try and bring the boat to a point where I can get a line from this cleat to a cleat or bull rail on the dock--and then use the engine to pull the boat into the dock. This middle cleat (by the window) works well as a spring line if it is the only one you get on.

With single engine boats, most have right hand props, and will back to the right, if you give a little burst of reverse as you come to the dock--often this is useful to bring the boat in at about a 30 degree angle, and then a little burst to reverse. This should work the same in a twin outboard boat, especially if both engines are right hand rotation.

I found that the deeper hull, and hard chine of the Tom Cat, worked as a keel, and it drifted less with the wind, than the 22 and 25.
 
Another useful trick:

Back in to the dock at a 30 degree angle. When close,go to neutral, and go to the corner where the dock is approaching :lol: :roll: , catch the dock and slip a prepared dock line over a cleat. Then use the opposite side outboard, (pointing straight forward), in forward gear, to move the bow over to the dock. Slow and easy does it, and it will hold it there until you get things tied and secure.

Obviously this maneuver requires proper strength cleats and lines.

Usually, I just back in, swing the bow over (using counter throttle/gearing and go to neutral and step off and tie up, a stern and a bow cleat line, with both acting a spring lines as well.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
 
hardee":l200bpka said:
Another useful trick:

Back in to the dock at a 30 degree angle. When close,go to neutral, and go to the corner where the dock is approaching :lol: :roll: , catch the dock and slip a prepared dock line over a cleat. Then use the opposite side outboard, (pointing straight forward), in forward gear, to move the bow over to the dock. Slow and easy does it, and it will hold it there until you get things tied and secure.

Obviously this maneuver requires proper strength cleats and lines.

Usually, I just back in, swing the bow over (using counter throttle/gearing and go to neutral and step off and tie up, a stern and a bow cleat line, with both acting a spring lines as well.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon
Click to expand...

This works well when a stiff wind is blowing you away from the dock you are
approaching and you are shorthanded, no one on the dock to assist.

A prerequisite is being nimble footed.

Aye.
 
Back when I owned a CD-22 (2003) with twin 40s I could plane with one engine, no problem. I believe the max HP rating for the 22 at that time was 100 HP. But these days folks prefer more HP and the manufacturer has made adjustments to accommodate more . It all depends on how fast and with what kind of load you intend to do most of your cruising.
 
KMatthews":34xea94t said:
Unfortunately, [my] space is in a less desirable portion of the marina in that exiting the marina-dock entails precise control in a very narrow passage between docked vessels and a rocky shore (not navigable during lower water levels) with a tight 90 degree turn through a 'gate' between two dock sections.
Click to expand...
I was up at Point Hudson last weekend and I believe I saw your boat, wedged in between the inner dock and the rocky shoreline. I was hoping I might run into you (not literally), so I could ask how you got the boat into that skinny space.

I have a 22 with twin Hondas, but I was strictly a steering wheel guy until I read the Apostle Harvey's impassioned advocacy for precision twin steering and his treatise on docking with twins (scroll down to Harvey's seven point docking lesson), and then got an on-the-water lesson from him, across the channel from Port Townsend, at Mystery Bay.

Now I'm a believer. Hallelujah! If you spend an afternoon practicing in some quiet backwater, with a big empty dock (Mystery Bay is a good place for this), you will be able to—at a minimuim—spin your boat in place, in either direction. And with a little more practice, you'll be able to ease your boat into a tight space on the dock. Plus, playing around with the differential throttle is just a lot of fun.
 
Andy, Good to hear you are enjoying the results. BTW, It's not nearly as much harvey as it is practice that makes it work. Sorry I missed you in PT. I will have to try harder.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

JC_Lately_SleepyC_Flat_Blue_070.thumb.jpg
 
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