C-Dory vs Cruisers
- Thread starter DuckDogTitus
- Start date
DuckDogTitus
New member
C-Dawg":183t4o18 said:
good stuff!
DuckDogTitus,
You asked about the "Process" with a porta potti. Of course biologically its all the same but a porta potti is in some ways just like a marine head, it has a flush, a small (3 or so gallon) black water holding tank, and the ability to "pump out" except that in the case of a porta potti it comes in two parts, the upper part containing the flushing reservoir, seat/cover and manual flush (just like a manual water pump, i.e. press down on the bellows and you generate water pressure). That part separates from the lower reservoir with a simple latch. To "pump out" when the reservoir is full as indicated by a visible red/green gauge, just separate the two parts, carry the black water reservoir to a dump station or toilet, (it is water tight and can be carried vertically by the built in handle), swing out the dump valve closed by a screw cap similar to those on RV's, tilt the reservoir and dump the contents. I usually do this two or three times, rinsing with a little clean water each time until the reservoir is clean, close the dump valve, put a little clean water in the reservoir, add the blue RV toilet chemicals, wipe the exterior surfaces with a sanitizing disposable cloth and reconnect to the upper part. We always wipe down the seat, etc. with the same kind of disposable wipes. You may need to add flush water but not always. They are very simple and effective, no macerator, no through hull, no electric pumps, etc. The period between dumps varies for all the usual reasons but it is not at all unusual to go a week between dumps, especially if you can take advantage of marina toilets. Some people have built a little enclosure for privacy, some keep it in the cockpit, some just leave it in the cabin and put window coverings up for privacy. We have never had the least odor, never had a spill. But, they are not for everybody. I think an advantage to the head in a 25 for example is that it provides privacy for use while underway. I think the ability to shower is another big factor moving people to the 25. Never really expected to discourse on the ins and outs of a porta potti on the site :roll: but hope this helps.
You asked about the "Process" with a porta potti. Of course biologically its all the same but a porta potti is in some ways just like a marine head, it has a flush, a small (3 or so gallon) black water holding tank, and the ability to "pump out" except that in the case of a porta potti it comes in two parts, the upper part containing the flushing reservoir, seat/cover and manual flush (just like a manual water pump, i.e. press down on the bellows and you generate water pressure). That part separates from the lower reservoir with a simple latch. To "pump out" when the reservoir is full as indicated by a visible red/green gauge, just separate the two parts, carry the black water reservoir to a dump station or toilet, (it is water tight and can be carried vertically by the built in handle), swing out the dump valve closed by a screw cap similar to those on RV's, tilt the reservoir and dump the contents. I usually do this two or three times, rinsing with a little clean water each time until the reservoir is clean, close the dump valve, put a little clean water in the reservoir, add the blue RV toilet chemicals, wipe the exterior surfaces with a sanitizing disposable cloth and reconnect to the upper part. We always wipe down the seat, etc. with the same kind of disposable wipes. You may need to add flush water but not always. They are very simple and effective, no macerator, no through hull, no electric pumps, etc. The period between dumps varies for all the usual reasons but it is not at all unusual to go a week between dumps, especially if you can take advantage of marina toilets. Some people have built a little enclosure for privacy, some keep it in the cockpit, some just leave it in the cabin and put window coverings up for privacy. We have never had the least odor, never had a spill. But, they are not for everybody. I think an advantage to the head in a 25 for example is that it provides privacy for use while underway. I think the ability to shower is another big factor moving people to the 25. Never really expected to discourse on the ins and outs of a porta potti on the site :roll: but hope this helps.
DuckDogTitus
New member
colobear":2nvh8mlg said:
LOL I'm sure you didn't, but you answered exactly my question. When deer hunting, I prefer old school holes dug in the ground vs some of the 'fancier' camp outhouses you can now buy. it seems that messing with that stuff just becomes honestly... grosser... than having just done things caveman style and been done with it. the Porta potti process does not appeal to me. BUT the KISS application does. Thank you for the explanation!! boats do have enough to think about where I can see why many people would prefer this setup.
Too, the dedicated room/marine head and under-the-bunk/porta-potti don't necessarily go together in only those combinations. That is, you can have the head (room) in a 25 but still use a porta-potti in it to make it less complicated; and likewise, you could plumb a marine head (without its own dedicated room) into a 22. The latter would probably not be a common option, but theoretically possible. They also make certain porta-potti models that can be plumbed in to accept a pump-out hose on deck, but also still be used in cartridge-fashion like a usual porta-potti. Yet another option.
I've always found it refreshing how boaters (by necessity) end up talking about the "real" stuff of life
Sunbeam :hot
I've always found it refreshing how boaters (by necessity) end up talking about the "real" stuff of life
Sunbeam :hot
Like Heinz, the C-Dory 25 Cruiser has worked well for us. Besides the enclosed head, it has hot/cold pressure water, fridge, more storage and more elbow room. Last year, we spent six months on the boat; we didn't need the marina showers or restrooms. 6'10" height in the cabin. 360º views, unlike the "cave" you mentioned.
We have friends who have a 27/28' SeaRay cruiser. It is a nice boat, but a beast to tow and the helm is outside. They have a full canvas for it, bit it isn't the same as the protected helm inside the C-Dorys.
Of course, the best way to decide which will best fit your needs is to get ON each boat. Sit at the dinette. Try the berths. Get a feel for where you will be on the boat to enjoy some time at anchor. Their SeaRay has some great cockpit seating built-in. I would almost consider that style boat to have two distinct levels.
For discussion sake, we have been coast to coast to coast and lots of great places in between with our boat... and we don't fish. We bought it because it is an excellent cruiser. The two boats you're considering are very different in design and use. Asking here is a certainty that you will get the advantages of the C-Dory.
Good luck with your decisions.
Jim B.
We have friends who have a 27/28' SeaRay cruiser. It is a nice boat, but a beast to tow and the helm is outside. They have a full canvas for it, bit it isn't the same as the protected helm inside the C-Dorys.
Of course, the best way to decide which will best fit your needs is to get ON each boat. Sit at the dinette. Try the berths. Get a feel for where you will be on the boat to enjoy some time at anchor. Their SeaRay has some great cockpit seating built-in. I would almost consider that style boat to have two distinct levels.
For discussion sake, we have been coast to coast to coast and lots of great places in between with our boat... and we don't fish. We bought it because it is an excellent cruiser. The two boats you're considering are very different in design and use. Asking here is a certainty that you will get the advantages of the C-Dory.
Good luck with your decisions.
Jim B.
DuckDogTitus
New member
JamesTXSD":nifaccrb said:
thanks Jim, I noticed that too and having fished inclement PNW weather from the Lund, even with canvas, the closed cockpit is a big selling point to me. in my experience the full canvas does little but annoy...
i've spent some time on sundancers, hoping to get on a dory this weekend.
DuckDogTitus
New member
Sunbeam":4ojvpiwa said:Too, the dedicated room/marine head and under-the-bunk/porta-potti don't necessarily go together in only those combinations. That is, you can have the head (room) in a 25 but still use a porta-potti in it to make it less complicated; and likewise, you could plumb a marine head (without its own dedicated room) into a 22. The latter would probably not be a common option, but theoretically possible. They also make certain porta-potti models that can be plumbed in to accept a pump-out hose on deck, but also still be used in cartridge-fashion like a usual porta-potti. Yet another option.
I've always found it refreshing how boaters (by necessity) end up talking about the "real" stuff of life
Sunbeam :hot
well, as the book says
really its probably not as much of a significant aspect of the boat as I have made it out to be, but it has come up. either way, I love the access to experienced owners here on the forum, you guys are great !
DuckDogTitus":37gxo4e1 said:
The porta potty is really no big deal and is IMHO less "gross" than dealing with pumping out a marine head (and cleaning the pump out hose). Also, the first time you have to fix the macerator pump on the marine head (and trust me it will break at the least convenient time), you'll REALLY appreciate the simplicity of the porta potty. See for example - http://captnjim.blogspot.com/2012/09/we ... rappy.html
Having lived aboard boats for over 13 years with fixed heads, and a number of years part time with Porti potties--I prefer the Porti potty. Bacically they can be dumped any where there is a conventional toilet, or RV dump. You are not hostage to a Marina pump out! The odor and care of a portipottie is far better than many marine heads.
The privacy issue--well that is something one has to get by. Some folks have put shower curtains in the cockpit along with the full camper back (which we recommend) giving an "enclosed head".
Even in our 42 foot RV my wife prefers taking a shower at campgrounds (because of unlimited hot water and no grey water tank limitations...)So showers are not all that good on large RV's, let alone small boats!..
The privacy issue--well that is something one has to get by. Some folks have put shower curtains in the cockpit along with the full camper back (which we recommend) giving an "enclosed head".
Even in our 42 foot RV my wife prefers taking a shower at campgrounds (because of unlimited hot water and no grey water tank limitations...)So showers are not all that good on large RV's, let alone small boats!..
thataway":3hphlqd7 said:
Along similar lines, even when I was on a "big" boat, which had a large, enclosed head, we still made adjustments for privacy. For anything more than a quick trip, the other(s) were usually asked if they wouldn't mind spending a few minutes in the cockpit (outside) vs. just on the other side of a 3/4" piece of plywood in the saloon... Showers were virtually never taken below because who wanted to get all clean and then have to squeegee/clean up/dry the head. That said, it was certainly comfortable having a relatively large, dedicated room/counter/stowage.
The same conditions might not apply to other people or other boats, but like Thataway said, even "big" boats don't always completely solve the problems (without adjustment).
Well, since Roger brought up my macerator post on our blog... Just not that big of a deal. Personally, I prefer the fresh water flush head on our 25 vs a porta-potty or a pump-type marine head.
If you haven't tried the different boat toilet options, including a composting unit like an Air-Head, you need to do some ummm... personal research. :wink:
We have used porta-potties on other boats... not my preference. Especially when it is time to ummm... Sit and think. The bowl on a porta-potty can be messier to clean. In our 25, the shower-head is a perfect toilet sprayer. Easy. The tank has bigger capacity than a pp. And, it just feels more like a "real" toilet.
Ours is the SeaLand unit, more like an RV unit than most typical marine heads.
That said, you'd need to go with a 25 or a TomCat for that option.
Jim
PS. I am not a big fan of marina showers... I don't have to wear flip-flops in our shower on the boat. No big deal to give it a squeegee and a wipe-down. We are heading out in a day or two for some land traveling, and the bathroom/shower in our 5th wheel is our choice over any RV park shower, even the most upscale places.
If you haven't tried the different boat toilet options, including a composting unit like an Air-Head, you need to do some ummm... personal research. :wink:
We have used porta-potties on other boats... not my preference. Especially when it is time to ummm... Sit and think. The bowl on a porta-potty can be messier to clean. In our 25, the shower-head is a perfect toilet sprayer. Easy. The tank has bigger capacity than a pp. And, it just feels more like a "real" toilet.
Ours is the SeaLand unit, more like an RV unit than most typical marine heads.
That said, you'd need to go with a 25 or a TomCat for that option.
Jim
PS. I am not a big fan of marina showers... I don't have to wear flip-flops in our shower on the boat. No big deal to give it a squeegee and a wipe-down. We are heading out in a day or two for some land traveling, and the bathroom/shower in our 5th wheel is our choice over any RV park shower, even the most upscale places.
JamesTXSD":1x7g28v3 said:
Just to clarify what I said earlier, I didn't mean to imply that the C-Dory 25 shower would be a big bother to clean - I've never actually been in one - sounds like it's pretty handy and usable :thup The head on the (non-C-Dory) boat I was referring to had a lot of wood, nooks and crannies, lockers.... not really conducive to easy squee-geeing (although nice in other ways).
What I was really trying to say (but probably could have done better) was that even bigger boats (such as the OP is considering) are not always "just like home" and many require some adjustment to technique or "style." Sometimes these aren't the things you'd think of; e.g. I was surprised that everyone on the big boat ended up preferring the saloon empty of other people while using the head for #2 (myself included). Wouldn't have predicted that (although it was fine, so not a complaint as much as just a 'huh... well, okay that works").
Seems like oftentimes the things I think will be issues aren't, but then other, different things crop up to take their place once I start using a boat. All part of the fun/adaptation.
I had a regal express cruiser 29' cruised from seattle to near prince Rupert a few different time and did the same trip in a 25 and long story short the 25 is the way better cruising boat . if your mainly going to entertain friends go out five or ten miles go fast then an express cruiser is great but for true cruising being out for days or weeks at a time a cdory 25 would do you a better and safer and less expensive job. Don't get me wrong i crossed the queen charlotte sound, staites of Georgia went to Bella Bella in that express cruiser but the trips was alot better and cheaper in the 25
starcrafttom
Active member
marine head all the way. potty pots suck and smell. compost heads are neat but you still have to pour the piss over the side. My marine head is great and only smells if we forget to put chemicals in it. 20 gallon tank last use a few weekend. Here in the washington area free pump outs are easy to find and use. In canada, well they tell you to pump out at sea. We try not to but some times it cant be helped.
If the composting heads had a over board drain for the piss I would consider one.
If the composting heads had a over board drain for the piss I would consider one.
DuckDogTitus
New member
wow at first I was thinking, "lots of experience here all leaning towards the porta unit", now It seems you guys are split 50/50! lol
either way, really appreciate the comments. I'm still soaking it all in. I read the blog post supplied, (that would be a crappy situation) and totally get it. If I'm on a trip, either taking friends to the islands, or trying to fish 3 days.. who wants to deal with that? But I understand the complaints on the porta aspect. sounds like there are ups and downs to both. we didn't have a toilet on board the last boat and we'd spend 8 hours on the sound at a time, so either way I guess its a luxury.
on an unrelated but still related to me note... can you guys tell me what its like to anchor in salt overnight? that's a question I've had in my mind for a few months. If you are anchoring up near shore, but not at a marina, to sleep... and you know the tide is changing, what is the process for that? I've seen some big tide changes fishing and duck hunting north and south sound.
thanks again. I dont really come from a 'boating' family so I've found this has been a difficult world to enter as a complete newbie.
either way, really appreciate the comments. I'm still soaking it all in. I read the blog post supplied, (that would be a crappy situation) and totally get it. If I'm on a trip, either taking friends to the islands, or trying to fish 3 days.. who wants to deal with that? But I understand the complaints on the porta aspect. sounds like there are ups and downs to both. we didn't have a toilet on board the last boat and we'd spend 8 hours on the sound at a time, so either way I guess its a luxury.
on an unrelated but still related to me note... can you guys tell me what its like to anchor in salt overnight? that's a question I've had in my mind for a few months. If you are anchoring up near shore, but not at a marina, to sleep... and you know the tide is changing, what is the process for that? I've seen some big tide changes fishing and duck hunting north and south sound.
thanks again. I dont really come from a 'boating' family so I've found this has been a difficult world to enter as a complete newbie.
DuckDogTitus":2u39y357 said:
It really is one of those things - in my opinion - where there is no "right" answer. Both have plusses and minuses, and some people will have a strong preference for one over the other. Problems are possible with both. There can also be a regional aspect to it: Some places are easier to dump porta-pottis, some have more pump-out facilities for holding tanks, and some have both (or neither).
DuckDogTitus":2u39y357 said:
You have to have local tide information, and then know where you are on the tide (in other words, is it high tide right now, low tide, or somewhere in between)? Then you allow for the added or subtracted depth (compared to what you have at the moment) and anchor accordingly. You do sometimes see people aground who didn't mean to be, but somehow miscalculated (or maybe didn't know to calculate). The opposite possibility is that it gets deep enough so that you don't have enough rode out.
I come from fresh water, so tides were all new to me the first time I encountered them (which, ironically, was in an area with really big tides... whee!).
Sunbeam
From my book:
Anchoring
In the cruising guides you’ll find detailed descriptions of a great many anchorages along the way. Rather than discuss the anchorages themselves, we’ll discuss anchoring issues and technique (much of which you may already know), with emphasis on the nature of the Inside Passage. If you’re experienced at anchoring, there’s not much magic to it, but recognize that you will need to take into account really big tides, deep water, and potentially tough weather conditions. If you’re less experienced, anchoring safely is not that tough to learn – and it’s an essential skill for the Inside Passage.
Tidal range varies greatly from place to place, and from one time of the lunar month to another. When the sun and moon are aligned, or directly opposite each other (new moon and full moon), their gravitational effects add together, making “spring” tides which are especially large. When the moon is at ¼ or ¾, the “neap” tides are smaller. PNW tides can be as small as 6-8 feet, or as large as 20 and more. You could find yourself high and dry if you don’t know where the tide is when you anchor, and how much lower it will get over the whole time you’re there. Modern chartplotters with tide tables make this easy to figure out – but make sure you get it right.
We usually anchor in 25-55 feet, and put out 90-180 feet of rode. We start by listening to the weather forecast, so we know how much wind to expect, and from what direction. Then we figure the tides, and thus the minimum depth we need. If we aren’t already quite familiar with the anchorage, we make a circle 200-400 feet across, checking depths in the area where we’ll be swinging on the hook. We do this slowly and carefully, to avoid suddenly coming across a very shallow spot – particularly where detailed charting is not available. We did wreck our props on one dark day, circling too casually in 25 feet of water, and running into a pinnacle we didn’t see, only 2 feet below the surface.
If depths look OK within the circle, and we set the anchor solidly in the center of it, we’re fairly sure we won’t wind up aground. A good way to ensure we have covered the right area, and we’re anchoring in the center of it, is to zoom way in on our chartplotter. It shows the scale of the view it’s presenting, so by looking at our track we can see quite accurately the size and shape of the area we’ve checked out.
We point into the wind, come to a stop, lower the anchor, and after the anchor is on the bottom we back slowly, letting out more rode. After letting out the appropriate length of rode, we shift into neutral, cleat off the line, and let the boat put some tension on it. When the anchor seems to have set, we pull gently in reverse, while feeling the line for signs of dragging. Usually it’s easy to tell whether the anchor is well set or dragging. More often than not, it sets solidly right away. If it drags, we retrieve and re-set. The more wind we expect, the longer our rode, and the harder we pull to test the set.
If the wind is strong, and we’re not sure of the holding quality of this particular bottom, we leave the chartplotter on and zoomed in. If it’s really windy, we might leave both chartplotter and fishfinder on for quite a while. As we swing on the hook, our track on the chartplotter shows as a crescent, centered on the location of the anchor. If our position moves beyond the initial position of the crescent, we know we have been dragging. Occasionally this happens soon after we anchor, usually because thick kelp or soft mud has prevented good holding. Then we retrieve the anchor and re-set, successfully in most cases without moving very far.
Ideally we choose a relatively small cove with protection from several angles. If we know where the wind is coming from, an anchorage that’s open for some distance in a different direction may be just fine. But suppose our anchor spot is open to the west for a mile or two, and west wind is forecast – we’re going to feel it when even a moderate west wind blows. On the other hand, if we anchor where there’s only a few hundred feet of water surface (fetch) for the wind to work on, and even more so if higher ground blocks the wind somewhat, we can ride out a pretty stiff breeze without bouncing around much. This is not just a comfort issue, but also one of safety: if waves have us pitching heavily, on the upward bounce there’s much greater strain on the rode. It could jerk the anchor out of its set and allow us to drag.
We research anchorages with cruising guides and charts, and decide before we travel which ones will probably work for us. When we head out for the day we have our next stop already in mind, but always have others picked out along the way, in case weather worsens and we need to duck in somewhere. Over time we’ve developed a considerable list of anchorages that work for us, or seem that they would. With a look at our list, we can plan a day’s travel quickly, without a lot of re-reading in the guides.
Anchoring
In the cruising guides you’ll find detailed descriptions of a great many anchorages along the way. Rather than discuss the anchorages themselves, we’ll discuss anchoring issues and technique (much of which you may already know), with emphasis on the nature of the Inside Passage. If you’re experienced at anchoring, there’s not much magic to it, but recognize that you will need to take into account really big tides, deep water, and potentially tough weather conditions. If you’re less experienced, anchoring safely is not that tough to learn – and it’s an essential skill for the Inside Passage.
Tidal range varies greatly from place to place, and from one time of the lunar month to another. When the sun and moon are aligned, or directly opposite each other (new moon and full moon), their gravitational effects add together, making “spring” tides which are especially large. When the moon is at ¼ or ¾, the “neap” tides are smaller. PNW tides can be as small as 6-8 feet, or as large as 20 and more. You could find yourself high and dry if you don’t know where the tide is when you anchor, and how much lower it will get over the whole time you’re there. Modern chartplotters with tide tables make this easy to figure out – but make sure you get it right.
We usually anchor in 25-55 feet, and put out 90-180 feet of rode. We start by listening to the weather forecast, so we know how much wind to expect, and from what direction. Then we figure the tides, and thus the minimum depth we need. If we aren’t already quite familiar with the anchorage, we make a circle 200-400 feet across, checking depths in the area where we’ll be swinging on the hook. We do this slowly and carefully, to avoid suddenly coming across a very shallow spot – particularly where detailed charting is not available. We did wreck our props on one dark day, circling too casually in 25 feet of water, and running into a pinnacle we didn’t see, only 2 feet below the surface.
If depths look OK within the circle, and we set the anchor solidly in the center of it, we’re fairly sure we won’t wind up aground. A good way to ensure we have covered the right area, and we’re anchoring in the center of it, is to zoom way in on our chartplotter. It shows the scale of the view it’s presenting, so by looking at our track we can see quite accurately the size and shape of the area we’ve checked out.
We point into the wind, come to a stop, lower the anchor, and after the anchor is on the bottom we back slowly, letting out more rode. After letting out the appropriate length of rode, we shift into neutral, cleat off the line, and let the boat put some tension on it. When the anchor seems to have set, we pull gently in reverse, while feeling the line for signs of dragging. Usually it’s easy to tell whether the anchor is well set or dragging. More often than not, it sets solidly right away. If it drags, we retrieve and re-set. The more wind we expect, the longer our rode, and the harder we pull to test the set.
If the wind is strong, and we’re not sure of the holding quality of this particular bottom, we leave the chartplotter on and zoomed in. If it’s really windy, we might leave both chartplotter and fishfinder on for quite a while. As we swing on the hook, our track on the chartplotter shows as a crescent, centered on the location of the anchor. If our position moves beyond the initial position of the crescent, we know we have been dragging. Occasionally this happens soon after we anchor, usually because thick kelp or soft mud has prevented good holding. Then we retrieve the anchor and re-set, successfully in most cases without moving very far.
Ideally we choose a relatively small cove with protection from several angles. If we know where the wind is coming from, an anchorage that’s open for some distance in a different direction may be just fine. But suppose our anchor spot is open to the west for a mile or two, and west wind is forecast – we’re going to feel it when even a moderate west wind blows. On the other hand, if we anchor where there’s only a few hundred feet of water surface (fetch) for the wind to work on, and even more so if higher ground blocks the wind somewhat, we can ride out a pretty stiff breeze without bouncing around much. This is not just a comfort issue, but also one of safety: if waves have us pitching heavily, on the upward bounce there’s much greater strain on the rode. It could jerk the anchor out of its set and allow us to drag.
We research anchorages with cruising guides and charts, and decide before we travel which ones will probably work for us. When we head out for the day we have our next stop already in mind, but always have others picked out along the way, in case weather worsens and we need to duck in somewhere. Over time we’ve developed a considerable list of anchorages that work for us, or seem that they would. With a look at our list, we can plan a day’s travel quickly, without a lot of re-reading in the guides.
DuckDogTitus
New member
thanks guys! Richard, I actually have your book (you emailed me last month I think, I'm Dustin). I have only scratched the surface since it arrived so I haven't read that part yet. thanks for the info though. the rest of the book (that i have read so far) has been great too!