C-Dory Quality Control

S

Seeker

New member
Having just read the entire "Thataway" thread, I'm curious if anyone else has experienced QC problems with a new TC255.

Not having the experience, tools, or skills to remedy the kind of problems that Dr. Bob had, and being in Alaska would be a nightmare.

Is there any indication that the factory has taken steps to make sure problems like exposed core in joints don't leave the factory, or that hatches are properly installed and caulked?

We're looking at moving up from the CD 22, but don't want to pay that kind of money for those kind of problems.

Thanks,

Law
 
I cant say b/c I only seen new C Dorys and a C Ranger 21EC in Ft Meyers. Each one had high quality fit and finish. I thought the exterior finish was perfect. I was very impressed with the ease of access to various systems and overall workmanship. I was expecting to see C-Dory factory staff signatures. Built with proud by ....., ..... and......
Date, year

my 2 cents worth
 
We will know a bit more because a new boat is being delivered next week by the same dealer who I purchased mine from. The dealer has had the boat for nearly a month.

I am sure that the factory took very much to heart what I said to them. I am also sure that they would have fixed the problems had I elected to get the boat to the dealer. It just didn't make sense to drive 20 hours and run the boat 60 miles for various issues.

I have not found any further probelms--all of the ones I have either have been resolved or are under control.

We have had some very hard rains--well over an inch an hour--some days up to 4 inches, with absolutely no leaks.

It is also possiable that I got a "Friday" boat--or that I am more critical than most buyers.
 
Without discounting what anyone has experienced with new C-Dorys (there have been many valid complaints), I think it's safe to say customer expectations vary. What may seem like a concern to one person, may very well be typical construction practices and perfectly acceptable to somebody else.

Generally speaking, I'll suggest the consensus is you'll get an excellent quality product from the factory. However, you would be wise not to expect perfection; anything produced by hand, in the quantities C-Dory now turns out, is going to have an occasional glitch. Fortunately, C-Dory and their network of dealers has proven time and again that when these inevitable problems do crop up, they address them in a manner that most folks find more than satisfactory. And as Bob pointed out, they seem to be pretty good about not repeating problems once they have been reported. I'll be interested to hear his report on the new Tomcat his local dealer is delivering next week.

My suggestion - if you decide to go forward with a purchase, document everything you've read here that concerns you. Supply the list to the dealer when you give your deposit, and make it clear you will not accept delivery of the boat if it has any of the issues on your list.

Far better to have good communication up front, and ensure your dealer understands your expectations. While expecting perfection is perhaps unrealistic, nobody is going to fault you for being a little finicky when forking out the kind of bucks a new Tomcat demands.

And while reading about various problems here might give you some legitimate concerns, consider this...I've not seen a Tomcat owner here yet, who isn't very enthusiastic about their boat. The end result seems to be well worth the problems some of them have encountered.

It's still on my "want to have some day" list, that's fer sure... :lol:
 
Woops, I spoke too soon. I noted in my posts that the shower drain was not hooked up to the hose going to the sump pump. It drained directly to the bilge. Well--today I may have found out why. We are getting ready to do some cruising--and sanitized the water system. I left the pump on for about 30 minutes, and found several gallons of water on the head floor. With the boat on the lift, apparenlty the shower pan does not drain. So I put the boat in the water--and the water drained to the sump--but the pump didn't come on. It overflowed into the bilge. I have searched for some hidden switch--but cannot find one. In fact I cannot find a breaker or fuse for the shower sump pump. I opened the top, and the float switch is moving. I would hate to think that the hose was left off or detatched because the sump pump would not work...!

Oh yeh, why the water on the floor? The fitting from the 1/2" hose from the fresh water system to the head valve is polyethylene, and instead of using telfon tape, someone smeared the female fitting with some sealant like 4200 (not sure what type)--and of course it leaked. I spent about two hours with a fine knife blade and magnifing glass getting all of this sealant out of the grooves in the female fitting (didn't stick to the male fitting at all) and reinstalled properly--leak fixed.

This sort of thing is just either carelessness or lacke of knowlege. I would suggest to C Dory that each boat have a quality control check--and that the person responsible for that individual boat be held accountable for the mistakes.

Yes, I am more demanding than the average boater, but the issues I have found were items which would cause problems, either down the line, or immediately. Some were just ABYC issues--and the boats are now NMNA certified--which means that they meet ABYC standards. The certification apparently was done in late July.
 
I couldn't agree more, during the early days with mega problems on our 25 ft boat we provided both digital pictures and a comprehensive section of text on each and every item. These were sent to both the local dealer and the factory along with a challenge to incorporate the items into some sort of a QC check list. I am through the worst of it but still find blatantly careless things from time to time that will get addressed one at a time. I love the boat and have decided that I can over come just about any of the things found so far, as none of them have been anything more than lack of care or concern on a fitters part. I still do wonder if the same people do the hull / mold work that latter do the fitting. I sure hope not it's probably one of those things best left unknown. P.S that list was 10 pages of pictures with 2 different ones on each page and 7 pages of text!!Mike on Huda Thunkit.
 
Thataway

We also had a problem with the shower sump on the first few times it was used. For some reason the pump would not come on, and if it did , it then didn't shut off. I opened the sump and cleaned things up. We used the shower about every other day on our recent two month trip, and have had no more problems with the sump. The fitting on the inlet valve to the head was leaking some. I disassembled it and cleaned it up, then put it back together. It's OK now. The factory guys seem to thing that Bostic sealant is needed on the plumbing fittings. It just creates problems. They use Bostic all over the boat in the construction, and generally is does a great job, but it's not for plumbing. Some education of the workforce is needed here.

We have hull #5, and there has been a few changes made in the boat up to the current #55 or so. The Armstrong brackets are 6" shorter now (reduced spray), the cockpit seat has a better sealing gasket, and they have changed the location of the thru hulls on the fish box's and bilge pumps (ours were at the water line). We can hope that the education of the workforce has also improved with time. After our BC Canada trip, we returned to the factory and they brought Discovery up to the current production standards. Still waiting for the long promised, improved bow stop roller. It's always expected next week.

Leaving now for a week at Lake Powell.
 
Brent; in your last post you mention something of interest to me. You stated that your boat went back to the factory and was upgraded to the current production standard. I wonder if this is an option any of us have, may have to explore that one. As always I appreciate most of the input / feedback that I find on this site. Mike on Huda Thunkit
 
Da Nag

Re: My suggestion - if you decide to go forward with a purchase, document everything you've read here that concerns you. Supply the list to the dealer when you give your deposit, and make it clear you will not accept delivery of the boat if it has any of the issues on your list.

(I wish I knew how to paste quotes from previous messages in the white boxes, like you guys do)

That is good advise, in theory, but how will you accept a new boat, without removing hatches to see if the hole they are installed in is cut to size, or the the amount and quantity, and quality of sealant are suffiecient. Do you think the dealer will allow a buyer to take a shower or fill the tanks and let the boat sit in the sun for a couple of days to see if those systems work properly?

I know that the factory treated me very well with my new CD 22, but their customer service after the sale on these issues seems like closing the barn door after the horse is out.

I can't understand why the factory doesn't have QC system that checks the obvious manufacturing mistakes discussed here, before the boat leaves the factory.

It seems that the factory could take one employee, make a list of all the defects discovered or complained about, create a check list of items to check on every boat BEFORE it leaves the factory. This would probably cost less and create less confusion within the company than sending parts all over the country and paying the dealers to remedy these simple mistakes. Not to mention the grief and expense it would save the "true beliving" customers.

Lack of QC, in my opinion, helped lead to the demise of American made autos, and enabled Japanese autos to take over the market in this country and the rest of the world as well.

I am definitely holding back from buying a new boat, especially a new (CR 25) model, until I see the QC picture improve.

Thank you all for your replies. They are much appreciated,

Law
 
There is a certain "leap of faith" required in plunking your money down on almost any large purchase. If you buy a half million dollar motorcoach, the dealer is not going to let you take it out for the weekend, sleep in it, shower in it, etc before you buy it. I sure wouldn't expect anything different from a C-Dory dealer or the factory. You have to believe (and seeing all the owner comments here should help convince you) that you will be taken care of when the inevitable problem comes up. The construction of our boat (one of the first 2007 model 25s) was good. We had a few issues with some installation of options that the factory took care of with no questions asked. Those issues could have certainly be avoided if there were a QC person at the factory, clipboard in hand, checking each boat. Even then, there will still be issues with any complex product. How a manufacturer handles those issues will be the deciding factor for most buyers, and C-Dory has been forthright and great to deal with.

If something catastrophic happened to my boat, I would not have a moment's hesitation to order another C-Dory.

I have a neighbor who is a boat builder/dealer; he came by to look at our boat today and said, "That is a great boat. Great lines and very practical. I don't see anything about it that I would do differently." You would have to know this guy to appreciate the comments. (As a side note, he offered me a job demonstrating boats after I gave him the tour of our CD-25. :wink And to think that Joan thinks I am "hardcore unemployable." 8) )

My experience is: you can buy this boat with confidence. Everyone I dealt with during the purchase, delivery, and subsequent ownership wanted me to be satisfied.

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
Seeker, for the quotes in the block thingy, Highlight what you want to quote and hit copy. Then when you have started your post click on the Quote at the top of the page. There is URL, IMG Quote and some others. After clicking on the Quote button paste your quote and then click on the Quote button again. Go down to Preview at the bottom and you can see what it will look like.

Add whatever you want after your quote.

You do the same for adding a picture. Go the the picture in your album and bring it up the full size and copy the image location thread. Then on your post click on IMG and then paste the image location and click on IMG again.

Hope that wasn't too confusing.
 
We spent yesterday going over our TC 255 with two folks who will be picking up their new boat in the next few days and a check list was developed. Part of my advice was to fill the water tanks, leave the pressure system on for several hours, to run water into the shower and find out how it drains--where it drains. To open every compartment and look inside. So I do think it is reasonable to run all of the systems, plus take a hose over every inch of the boat.

One area where there seems to be some disagreement with the factory and myself is sealing the "lid" on the cabin top. Apparently the factory feels that leaving the raw balsa core in the side walls top exposed without sealant, is OK. It may be acceptable in the PNW, but not so in the South where there is year around high humidity, spray getting up into cracks and will eventually cause some core problems, unless sealed. So there may be differences of opinion based on where the boat is used and what the use is.

However as they were leaving today, I commented that despite the QC problems, the boat is extremely well built--truely one of the best production boats.
 
While I'm cetainly no expert, I do know for a fact that in the three marine climates that I have lived in (South Louisiana, Puget Sound, and S.E. Alaska), any material that can absorb moisture from the atmosphere WILL, not to mention from a direct splash.

One area where there seems to be some disagreement with the factory and myself is sealing the "lid" on the cabin top. Apparently the factory feels that leaving the raw balsa core in the side walls top exposed without sealant, is OK. It may be acceptable in the PNW, but not so in the South where there is year around high humidity, spray getting up into cracks and will eventually cause some core problems, unless sealed.
Click to expand...

I am amazed that a respected boat building company would express, and adopt such a ludicrous policy.

Thank you Dr. Bob.

I'm now looking at other manufactures for my next boat.

Regards,

Law
 
I may sound like a broken record but I can't resist. We have owned the Mary Ellen for just over 5 years. I am as picky as anyone who ever bought a boat. I have had numerous upgrades done and a few minor problems fixed and I can not say enough for the help and co-operation we have received from C-dory. I would not hesitate for a moment to purchase another C-dory in the future. As stated before these boats are made by humans and humans sometimes make mistakes. The good thing about C-dory is that they go beyond your expectations to make it right. Rest assured C-dory's are a quality boat.
 
Let me clarify; the factory sent me 6 tubes of the Bostec Butyl sealant which they use on the front windshield area when I complained about this area (between the cabin side walls and the top, which has a lip over hang). I had assumed that it was just a mistake that my cabin on the sides and aft top of the cabin was not sealed. In discussing this with people who are purchasing a new Tom Cat 255, I was told that a factory spokesperson said that sealing this area was not necessary. I was not told this personally, but I do feel that all of the areas were there is core exposed, no matter where it is, needs to be sealed adequately. I also realize that many manufactuers seal wood with gel coat. I personally do not feel that this is adequate. Gelcoat does not have adequate adhesive properties when applied in a secondary bond, and is more permiable to moisture than epoxy and other sealants.


I also have made it clear, in other posts, that we had a 22 C Dory which had absolutely no quality control issues when we owned it, and the only issue I could find documented in extensive work orders on the boat was the screwing on of the brass strip on the bow. All other work orders were for routine maintance.

The boats have become far more complex. There appears to be a much greater production level than years ago. If #55 TC is being finished, then it is truely amazing that 55 Tom Cat 255's have been completed in a year: about one a week.

Bob Austin
 
journey on has just returned from a 3 mo. tour of the Pacific Northwest. Of interest in this context are the problems we found during the Desolation Sound part of our tour.

First, we've used the boat in San Diego for 9 mos, found a few things (such as the drain fitting on the stern leaking,) but nothing major. Then we were a month into our trip up into Canada (my, it's expensive up there) when we found salt water on the cockpit floor. One place we could see water leaking was where the water hose came from the front bulkhead. We mopped it down, but then it came back, causing some really bad moments. Judy finally located a leak with water coming in the anchor locker drain hole, and I found a hole leading between the hull and the V-berth liner. We also had water leaking in the cockpit drain, and then through a failed seal between the cockpit floor and the fuel tank access (front port corner.) I plugged it up with whatever we had handy and we finished the cruise.

When the boat was delivered to the factory afterwards, they immediatly knew from where the leak was coming, and cheerfully fixed it, plus put checkvalves in the cockpit drains. Testing on the Columbia showed no leaks.

My final comments are:
1. C-Dory isn't making a profit if they have to fix that much bad workmanship, plus there were some bad feelings when we found the leaks, and I'm thinking where to beach the boat.
2. We'd been at the factory the month before and they hadn't said anything, which was kind of crappy. Ron on Meander told up where to expect leaks, so that we were better able to deal with the factory. This problem apparently is not uncommon on 05 25's.
3. If you're looking for another boat mfg, we've just put in a summer of cruising and it's the best trailerable cruiser we saw. Don't know of anything else I'd want.

The southern Boris
 
Seeker,

Although Thataway has documented several pages devoted to issues on his boat, I find it interesting and worth noting that someone with his vast knowlege and experience would summarize by stating:

Thataway wrote:
I commented that despite the QC problems, the boat is extremely well built--truely one of the best production boats
Click to expand...
I am far from an expert on boats, I'm not far removed from a newbie. But I do know that C-Dory has always responded to our needs in an expeditious and courteous manner, having always backed their product, and continues to address the needs of its owners, even to the point of replacing a new boat recently. Everyone has his/her own opinion on quality of service and workmanship. Everyone has his/her own level of expectations. But I for one love my C-Dory and am very satisfied with the quality and workmanship. Obviously, you're not.

Seeker wrote:
Thank you Dr. Bob.

I'm now looking at other manufactures for my next boat
Click to expand...

My response, good luck in finding that perfect boat.

Peter
 
Seeker":3dbzd3mz said:
I am amazed that a respected boat building company would express, and adopt such a ludicrous policy.
Click to expand...

I've never seen a C-Dory with this area sealed, and I've looked at old and new models. To my knowledge, it has never been done, even by the prior owners of C-Dory. I've certainly not seen and inspected every year/model, so somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

And to clarify - Bob was NOT referring to the front edge of the roof/cabin area, which does take tremendous amounts of water in wet/rough weather conditions, and is sealed. The area in question is on the sides and back, is completely covered from above, as well as from the sides by the lip of the roof. It receives nowhere near the exposure of the front of the cabin, and there are no depressions into which significant amounts of water can rest - it's simply the top surface of a cored edge, that's perhaps 3/8" wide. It's dry within minutes of washing the boat, and liberally spraying water up there - I've checked. All of these observations apply to the 16, 19 and 22's - I'm assuming they apply to the other models as well.

And therein lies why I have zero concern with this area - not only is it very difficult for water to get there, moreso for it to remain, but it's the end grain of balsa cored construction - something that is incredibly impervious penetration of water, even with raw balsa exposed.

Search the site, or search the net - end grain penetration of balsa cored materials, when constructed properly, is of minimal concern. And it's a complete non-issue on a covered vertical edge, above the waterline. Sorry...no amount of talk is going to convince me that humidity is going to penetrate this, when standing water has such a difficult time doing so.

And let's not discount something more tangible - history, and problem reports. In all the time we've been discussing these boats online, with thousands of owners and boats, we've seen tons of problems reported. Some are issues that rightfully should be addressed by the factory, others are normal wear and tear or issues arising out of neglect. Regardless, I have yet to see a report of significant damage to the balsa core in a C-Dory. There have been minor reports - screws in the cockpit that were not sealed properly, through hulls impoperly installed, etc. But all of these were easily cured, had minimal water penetration, and were in areas far more vulnerable to the elements. In fact, the only cases of significant water damage I've seen reported, were in the transoms of older C-Dorys at a time when they were plywood cored.

Still...if it bothers anyone, buy a tube of goop, and seal it up. $10 in materials, and 10 minutes of time. And make sure and do a quality job, with quality materials. Because if you don't, you'll make the "problem" worse. Water penetrating and remaining behind a bad sealant job, is a far greater concern.

Me - I'll leave it as is. Time has shown the design to be fine.
 
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