Boater competentcy...
- Thread starter JamesTXSD
- Start date
McDipple":2kg3cu0o said:
That's very surprising, and shoots a big hole through my contention on this issue that if we're going to attempt to mandate competent boaters, we should REALLY attempt it, as in with on-water training and testing.
If the training we put airline pilots through does not markedly affect judgment, how will a little testing?
As long as the comparison between piloting in the air and piloting on the water is being made and Dave is mentioning sharing our failures and stupid things we've done...
When I was in grad school I took training for a private pilot license. I didn't finish, got 50 solo hours in, and crashed a plane that had an engine failure while I was at the stick but that's another story. However, one thing I really learned a lot from and really enjoyed was the quarterly NTSB incident reports that were (at least at the time) sent to everyone with a pilot or student license. These reports detail the accidents that have occurred within a given region of the country over the past 3 months and they are most instructive. Incident reports include everything from clipping the wing of a parked plane while on taxi to more catastrophic events like crashes. The most frequent cause of a crash was running out of fuel, followed by flying in weather beyond the plane or pilot capabilities. Stalling the plane in any number of ways and/or overloading the plane were also frequent errors. Those things probably made up about 90+% of all problems and all are clearly pilot error - usually errors in judgement.
I can say that every time I read these things I thought "Boy, there sure are a lot of idiots out there". I can also say that reading these things every quarter reinforced the idea that I didn't want to be one of those idiots. The reports definitely encouraged me to be much more cautious in my approach to flying (e.g. I checked the fuel visually every time as any good pilot should). One advantage of requiring pilots to be licensed is that it provided a mechanism for communicating the incident report to other pilots. I sure wish I got quarterly reports on all boating accidents in my area as I'm sure I'd learn a few things and I'm sure it would reinforce good habits in my own boating. However, given that I don't get such reports, I would like to encourage this group to make your own "I shouldn't have done that" reports here so we all can learn from them.
When I was in grad school I took training for a private pilot license. I didn't finish, got 50 solo hours in, and crashed a plane that had an engine failure while I was at the stick but that's another story. However, one thing I really learned a lot from and really enjoyed was the quarterly NTSB incident reports that were (at least at the time) sent to everyone with a pilot or student license. These reports detail the accidents that have occurred within a given region of the country over the past 3 months and they are most instructive. Incident reports include everything from clipping the wing of a parked plane while on taxi to more catastrophic events like crashes. The most frequent cause of a crash was running out of fuel, followed by flying in weather beyond the plane or pilot capabilities. Stalling the plane in any number of ways and/or overloading the plane were also frequent errors. Those things probably made up about 90+% of all problems and all are clearly pilot error - usually errors in judgement.
I can say that every time I read these things I thought "Boy, there sure are a lot of idiots out there". I can also say that reading these things every quarter reinforced the idea that I didn't want to be one of those idiots. The reports definitely encouraged me to be much more cautious in my approach to flying (e.g. I checked the fuel visually every time as any good pilot should). One advantage of requiring pilots to be licensed is that it provided a mechanism for communicating the incident report to other pilots. I sure wish I got quarterly reports on all boating accidents in my area as I'm sure I'd learn a few things and I'm sure it would reinforce good habits in my own boating. However, given that I don't get such reports, I would like to encourage this group to make your own "I shouldn't have done that" reports here so we all can learn from them.
1TUBERIDER
New member
I think every boater should have a form of basic boating education, which would include safety equipment both required and not required, ramp etiquette, effects of weather on water, basic rules of the road where we talk about right of way and channel markers, vessel priorities, anchoring and some boating safety. Nothing to intense, but adequate coverage to help the newbee.
Education does not make up for experience.
Here in Crescent City, basic common sense goes a long way towards boating safely. But our days of many boats out are over. I am afraid that the boater is a dying breed with the cost of fuel and for us CLOSURE OF FISHING. I am so disappointed with the closure. I went fishing last weekend (my only trip this season due to projects) and saw around three boats in the area. I was told we had till the end of the year to bottom fish when I bought my license only to find out a week later that closure is Sept 2. High winds are forecast the rest of this week. We are really depleting our stock by the rules of fish and game. Thats another topic, but my main point is that boating numbers are way down.
Another cause of accidents is letting someone else borrow your boat. This is very common in the jet ski community and really as much as we would like to pass the joy on to others, this is a risky thing to do. I have had so much pressure from family members to borrow my skis that I no longer do any boating with them. I could educate them for a month and at the end of the day I would be out fuel and possibly equipment as they do stupid stuff.
Safe boating is a mindset and to bad we can't test that before they buy a boat.
Education does not make up for experience.
Here in Crescent City, basic common sense goes a long way towards boating safely. But our days of many boats out are over. I am afraid that the boater is a dying breed with the cost of fuel and for us CLOSURE OF FISHING. I am so disappointed with the closure. I went fishing last weekend (my only trip this season due to projects) and saw around three boats in the area. I was told we had till the end of the year to bottom fish when I bought my license only to find out a week later that closure is Sept 2. High winds are forecast the rest of this week. We are really depleting our stock by the rules of fish and game. Thats another topic, but my main point is that boating numbers are way down.
Another cause of accidents is letting someone else borrow your boat. This is very common in the jet ski community and really as much as we would like to pass the joy on to others, this is a risky thing to do. I have had so much pressure from family members to borrow my skis that I no longer do any boating with them. I could educate them for a month and at the end of the day I would be out fuel and possibly equipment as they do stupid stuff.
Safe boating is a mindset and to bad we can't test that before they buy a boat.
TomRay wrote; If the training we put airline pilots through does not markedly affect judgment, how will a little testing?
I should have mentioned that airline pilots have an accident rate roughly one 40th of GA pilots so the training really helps. However when accidents occur they are frequently due to a willful departure from established procedure. There have been about 13,000 fatalities in the whole history of commercial aviation in the US roughly the same as in 3-4 months of highway operations. Most of these happened before 1975 and the more recent record is largely due to the jet engine's reliability, electronics and simulators where non-fatal errors of judgement can be experienced. There is a marked inverse correlation between the number of simulators and the accident rate.
If you have knowledge at least you have an opportunity to exercise judgement.
I should have mentioned that airline pilots have an accident rate roughly one 40th of GA pilots so the training really helps. However when accidents occur they are frequently due to a willful departure from established procedure. There have been about 13,000 fatalities in the whole history of commercial aviation in the US roughly the same as in 3-4 months of highway operations. Most of these happened before 1975 and the more recent record is largely due to the jet engine's reliability, electronics and simulators where non-fatal errors of judgement can be experienced. There is a marked inverse correlation between the number of simulators and the accident rate.
If you have knowledge at least you have an opportunity to exercise judgement.
As the former owner of a small company we purchased a small plane to ferry personnel to outlying projects. Although I considered getting a pilots license I came to my senses. You don't want risk takers piloting airplanes. I don't have the personality for it. Fortunately boating is a bit more forgiving and allows me to behave as I pretty much wish. Now, as part of a large transportation agency I find that most projects are designed to accomodate one group, the lowest common denominator of motorists. You would be amazed how much of your tax dollars goes to accomodating those that probably shouldn't be operating a motor vehicle. And I am willing to bet a lot of those same people operate boats in some regions of the country. I still like to think that even the minimal amount of exposure to education helps make us a little more safe.
McDipple":b93j152s said:
I would question whether there is a causal relationship between training and accident rate. I would be more inclined to believe that commercial pilots are constantly being evaluated by their superiors as to their skill, judgement, etc. whereas GA pilots have only themselves to answer to, and therefore lack that higher authority to yank them off the flight line if necessary.
Warren
I had a good friend, who after distinguished early military carrier flew first seat on a major carrier overseas routes until his manditory retirement age without an incident. He retired to the Southwest. Less than a year later he was killed on takeoff after doing some adjustements to the variable pitch prop mechanism on his BD 5. The NSTB report showed zero pitch on the prop at time it failed.
Lots of training, lots of knowlege, but didn't have the judgment to leave a critical piece of equiptment alone...and a real tragedy. Like Lloyd, I decided many years ago that I probably was not suited to being a pilot and I might take risks to get back "in time". I have lost a number of friends who "thought" they could make it--and didn't. Again: Judgement.
Lots of training, lots of knowlege, but didn't have the judgment to leave a critical piece of equiptment alone...and a real tragedy. Like Lloyd, I decided many years ago that I probably was not suited to being a pilot and I might take risks to get back "in time". I have lost a number of friends who "thought" they could make it--and didn't. Again: Judgement.
tom&shan
New member
Have to wonder about a group of folks discussing Boater Competency under a misspelled topic (Competentcy ? ) .
:wink:
Cheers,
Tom
:wink:
Cheers,
Tom
I gotta pay attention to that spell check, huh?In boating, as in flying, you don't have enough lifetimes to learn from your mistakes. You must learn from other's mistakes by reading about them, listening to their stories and modifying your behavior to avoid repeating them.
We quit flying Gliders after losing 4 friends in 18 months. Boating is a little more forgiving of error due to PFDs and survival rafts etc.
We quit flying Gliders after losing 4 friends in 18 months. Boating is a little more forgiving of error due to PFDs and survival rafts etc.
Where I work operating heavy equipment in a mine that runs around the clock the incident reports and fatal grams sharing near misses and direct hits in group safety meetings is more helpful in the prevention of accidents then any other item in what is a very good company safety program, so Roger "SeaDNA", I have to concur with your relating of incidents in flying with their effect on you. I believe we all have had very close calls that only luck at the time prevented our being included in the cleaning of the gene pool and to me there is nothing quite like one of those personal incidents to prevent having to depend on luck again.
Concerning licensing for operation of a boat. Both sides of views shared here have some good points, but I personally prefer minimal government intrusion knowing the hall monitor types will always find ways to interject more than enough oversight and controls without help from me.
Jay
Concerning licensing for operation of a boat. Both sides of views shared here have some good points, but I personally prefer minimal government intrusion knowing the hall monitor types will always find ways to interject more than enough oversight and controls without help from me.
Jay