Boater competentcy...

I'm sort of indifferent about licensing if you could convince me it would cut down on accidents I might be more inclined to support it. For myself I've been operating small boats since I was around 8 years old by myself. At 10, 11 and 12 I ran a 20' river shrimp boat in Wilmington NC by myself. The largest craft I've operated was a 36' Gibson Houseboat twin screw all of this being on the ICW. At 60 years old I feel I can operate small vessels safely without endangering myself or others. I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of class but it's been my experience that simply passing a test doesn't make you profiecent. Things like reading the water, currents and tides play a big part in safe operation in my areas. This can only be learned from many hours in the water and some never do. I have a friend who I worked with as and electrician that was a wizz at taking tests. He had Master License's from all over the country but he was seriously lacking in mechanical ability to the point he had a lot of trouble keeping a job. My point is just because you have some sort of certificate hanging on the wall doesn't make you competent.
 
Tom Ray and I had this same discussion a couple years ago on the catboat forum... as a boat salesman, he felt that any kind of required boater education would impact his sales. Now that Tom has followed me over to this forum, let me bring up some holes in that argument... I have a commercial/multi-engine/instrument ticket with about 4,000 hours... while I would certainly not want to see anyone solo without some hands-on practical training, I wouldn't want to see a pilot sharing airspace with me in the IFR system if he hadn't passed the IFR written, either.

Education and experience go hand in hand. For most, it is easier to learn the practical stuff if one has been exposed to the principles involved. When you learn to drive a car, you start with a Learners Permit - that's a written test that has to be passed so you can go out with someone responsible to get the practical skills. As a CFI, Tom should know that he can't send someone for a check ride if they haven't passed the written test. The written education goes along with the practical skills.

Our world is different from when I was a kid. We did a lot of stuff at 12 and 13 that I wouldn't allow a kid to do today. Should they be allowed on the water solo... depends on the kid and the guidance he or she receives. Nowhere in the Constitution does it guarantee anyone the right to run a boat... that's left up to each state. I don't understand why a society that doesn't allow a 12 year old to drive solo or fly solo should necessarily allow that same kid to take out a 900 hp boat? Or a jetski? Tom may possess outstanding judgement; may have even had that judgement when he was 12... but most kids don't.

I have no self-serving reason to want boater education (or not) other than self-preservation. Sending someone out on the water with NO education can't be as good as sending them out with some.

If I were a boat salesman, I would give a certificate for a US Power Squadron Safe Boating Class with every boat sold - it shows concern for the customer and for others on the water. It could be something a good salesman could promote rather than consider education a hindrance to sales.

My apologies if someone thinks I am singling Tom out here; he and I have history... I always thought I could get along with most anyone... Tom came onto the catboat forum just after my sister's death and asked me, "What got your panties in a wad?" I should be gracious enough to forgive and move on, but I have avoided him and his posts on the other forum since that time; and now (since the dealership he works for - which makes him a salesman, not the dealer) he's here as a tug expert.

Frankly, I started this thread to see if I was way off base in thinking education is necessary for boating. I took plenty of classes early on and then practiced the skills taught in the books. Seemed like a smart way to go about it, regardless of any piece of paper.

I think I'll go for a boat ride.

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
TomRay":1sb1hks7 said:
Morris,

You're well on your way with the book learning part. I'm a former CFII myself. Let me ask you this: suppose a student completed all the ground school and written tests to get all the way to a commercial license with instrument rating. Would you let him solo? Me neither. Experience matters. Take lessons, go out with friends, or do whatever else you can to get out on the water. Have fun!
Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words!

Perhaps I did not state the importance of hands-on experience clearly in my first posting in this thread. If so, I regret it. Part of what I said in re the importance of experience was:

morris_rl":1sb1hks7 said:
I was once a Certified Flight Instructor, and I believe that thorough preparation on the ground tends to lead to safe flights. At the same time, I know darned well that book learning cannot substitute for experience.

As the old aviation saying goes, "Flying is not inherently dangerous, but to an even greater degree than the sea, it is entirely unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity, or neglect."

...

FUTURE - USCGA Coxswain
FUTURE - CSUCI Sailing Courses

...

For practical factors training, I intend to join the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary and qualify as a coxswain and as a communications watch officer. As I am not conversant with USCGA nomenclature, I am not sure what they call these functions.

I also want to take some sailing courses at California State University at Channel Islands in Camarillo, as I doubt the Coast Guard Auxiliary teaches sailing.
Click to expand...

Emphasis added.

To put it in aviation terms, I am doing my "ground school" first, then I intend to seek out out a qualified Coast Guard Auxiliary instructor for "dual instruction" in power boats and a sail training program for "dual instruction" in sailboats, and then finally I intend to buy a boat and do my first "solo flight". Further, I intend to check out in type by getting a few hours of dual instruction from a C-Dory owner once I have bought my boat before I solo in it.

Best Regards,

_________________
Rodger Morris morris_rl@yahoo.com
Scouter, AE6JC, LASFS Life Member, and Sidewalk Astronomer
Unitarian Jihad Name: "Brother Rail Gun of Quiet Reflection"
 
Hi Jim,

I actually didn't follow you over here. When we took on Ranger Tugs, I decided to find an owner's forum and see what owners say about their boats.

I truly regret our history on the other forum, and don't have any ill will toward you.

The potential impact of licensing on the small portion of my income which comes from boat sales is negligible, and that has never been my primary reason for opposing licensing, as I have told you.

I completely agree that written education means nothing without practical skills, which is why the superficial written test for the TX license is pretty meaningless to me. It tests for the ability to spit back some canned answers on a test, which does little to ensure adequate knowledge and does nothing to ensure competence on the water. The rules that come along with the license do arbitrarily (and wrongly) exclude certain boats and people from the water, and THAT has always been my biggest problem with licensing. It will keep kids off the water.

Our Constitution does not guarantee anyone the right to own a boat, but leaving it up to the States is not all you will find in the tenth amendment. There's a bit about leaving things up to the people. Do we really have a serious nationwide problem with parents sending kids out in a 900 hp boats to cause havoc? Maybe parents have enough judgement that State governments can actually safely allow 12 year olds to boat solo, and even let 13 year olds out without a superficial written test. Maybe their parents can evaluate all the factors which make that a safe or unsafe idea better than a one-size-fits-all government rule. Is that such a crazy thought? Can it only come from a self-serving place?

I appreciate your suggestion of the PS course as a sales "thank you" gift, and I will start doing that when it seems appropriate.
 
I for one hope that the power squadron's proposed levels of boating certification never occur--more intrusion into our boating lives. As I have said before--the level of course training does not guarantee that there will not be bad results. In the last several years, I know of at least 3 collisions where deaths occured where the operator of the boats at fault were either water law enforcement officers, CG skippers or boat dealers who were giving "classes" in boating safety.

The percent of accidents are few--but they can be easily fatal. We have at at least 3 deaths in boating accidents in our area this year. Sure a lot more in cars--but the number of miles driven in cars are far more than in boats.

One day in Friday Harbor last month, I had to back down hard when a boater who was the stand off vessel blatently ignored the rules of navigation to avoid a collision--in both cases they were distracted by other happenings and ignored other boats in their paths. Sure, no accident---but it could have been.

As for finding a Coast Guard Aux person to "train"--There are some very fine boat handling trainers, who are not CG Aux affiliated. I probably would not choose a CG aux person to do training. But that is a personal opinion. If you want ot spend your boating time in the power squadron or CG aux functions--it might make some sense to employ a CG aux person...but for general cruising knowlege, I suspect that you can find better qualified people.
 
I just got a SeaTow advertisement in the mail and it it was an add for a Marine Training School. www.BoatboyMarineTraining.com they clain they come to you and give you hands on training in your boat. I imagine the price is pretty steep seems there's a lot of money to be made in this. I've got a lady friend who is a secretary at a marine training school here in Jax. They do 6 pack 100 ton and other types of training. They are Coast Guard Ceritfied (what ever that means). I think basicly it means they can get grant or loan money for some of their students who they train as I guess they call it ordinary seamen? Then they promise them a job in the marine industry. A lot of these type students are down on their luck and in need of and occupation. Three guys that own it are making money hand over fist with this.
 
A peice of paper will not help, but the course held in a class room setting taught by boaters(Power Squadron or GGA) will at least impart some knowledge
 
I am with Bob Austin. I just want to be left alone. The only thing forced licensing would change is that 100% of the accidents would involve licensed boaters.

A college professor once told me to never confuse education with intelligence.

Patrick
 
thataway":2vya6z00 said:
I for one hope that the power squadron's proposed levels of boating certification never occur--more intrusion into our boating lives.
Click to expand...

I concur, if the intention is to make them mandatory. That said, I think these certifications have their place if one wishes to travel to another country and either do a "bareback charter" or cruise in territorial waters, especially in the European Union. Think of it as an "International Driver's License" for boaters venturing into the bureaucratic coils of the European Union.

:cry

A few months ago, I was talking with a German naval officer from Kiel who sails the Baltic Sea for recreation and who was here for a course at Naval Base Ventura County, and the subject of cruising in European Union territorial waters came up. He advised me that within a few years I might not be allowed to cruise in Europe without either a U.S. Coast Guard master's license or a properly endorsed U.S. recreational boater document that complied with European Union recreational boater requirements.

My response was along the lines of, "Do you mean that experience counts for nothing, and that if I entered European waters after having circumnavigated the world that I would be regarded as being unqualified to sail in the Mediterranean Sea or the Baltic Sea?"

His response: "That's right."

:evil:

thataway":2vya6z00 said:
As for finding a Coast Guard Aux person to "train"--There are some very fine boat handling trainers, who are not CG Aux affiliated. I probably would not choose a CG aux person to do training. But that is a personal opinion. If you want ot spend your boating time in the power squadron or CG aux functions--it might make some sense to employ a CG aux person...but for general cruising knowlege, I suspect that you can find better qualified people.
Click to expand...

Again, I concur. But then, you don't live near Channel Islands Harbor.

:wink: :thup

Best regards,
 
Like many other contributors I also have some 50 years of aviation background and served on the NBAA safety committee for some time. The many studies that I read suggested that there are 3 human components of safe operations; knowledge, skill and judgement, and it is judgement that is lacking in roughly 3/4 of all GA accidents and strangely the same fraction in airline operations.

The question that bedevils the Air Safety Foundation and all other safety organizations is how to teach and learn judgement. In my opinion it does not mostly happen in the classroom but in practice and most powerfully when you exhibit bad judgement and survive to learn. This may explain why car accidents peak in young, skilled men who have a license and then decline markedly at least until the basic skills deteriorate.

Good judgement would surely demand gathering at least the bare minimum of knowledge and skill and so perhaps some little testing is useful.

I crewed for years before I could afford a boat and those experiences under good, ordinary and awful skippers taught me most of what I know.
 
morris_rl":1h4kxcwy said:
(excerpt)
Regarding international recognition, we plan to have certain USPS certifications meet or exceed the requirements of UN Resolution 40, International Certificate for the Operation of Pleasure Craft. Under this resolution, boaters holding national certificates will be able to obtain international certification, much like licensed drivers can obtain international drivers licenses.
Click to expand...

So I wonder: has the US done anything to give force of law to this UN resolution? Has the govt of the Bahamas? Are we soon going to have to have a boater's license just because the rest of the world is going to have it that way? How old does the UN think you have to be to boat, anyway?
 
The threat of requiring license for US boaters has been around along time. I discussed this with the head of Marine Customs in Antwerp in 1984 when he spent the better part of a day on our boat "clearing us in" Currently there is no universal licensing scheme for all of Europe--The British "international Certificate of Competency is only issued to British Subjects and is good only on British owned boats.

The licensing requirement in the UK and many EU countries has been present for a long time--as well as CE certification of various craft. However, there are many people who boat in these countries without such license. I have a friend who is a partner in a large canal boat--and they have no license, yet freely travel all of the canals of Europe.

There are some good schools, and some not so good schools for teaching boat handling and seamanship. On the other hand, there is no substitute for experience and judgement. Many parts of boating become reflex--and should be reflex.

Sure agree, that there is a vast difference between education, intellegance and Judgement/common sense.
 
Well -- since I was just sipping some Virginia Lightening-- I might pose the question--- how about the native Americans that blast by La Conner, WA---- would they be required to show compentency?
Whew-- this is some good stuff :cocktail :cocktail
 
Hi Folks,

This is a good topic. Just this last week I had an example of what can happen on Massachusett's waters where we do not have licencing.( New Hampshire, Connectuit, and I think Rhode Island have it, simply taking the basic Boating Safety course and passing the test.)

I was boating in the middle of Nantucket Harbor, very few boats around teaching my eight year old grand daughter how to steer. Like most kids, she was overcompensating and steering a course that looked like a snake was following us. There were no other boats around. I looked aft and saw a boat going full speed and going very close to our starboard side. I grabbed the wheel and pulled it to port. If I had not, my grand daughter might have cut nearer to the other boat.

Issues, an overtaking boat has no rights. If you see a boat going slow and steering in an erratic manner shouldn't you slow down. (Prudent rule.) These are the things that would be covered in a basic boating course for a license. Not in Massachusetts.

Fred
 
For those that are leery of increased Government (or any one elses) intrusion in their lives, there is nothing that the government will learn about me that they don't already know if I take a boating examination and submit it to obtain a boating license. The benefit I see in requiring a boating license is that individuals become aware that there are "rules of the road" that are applicable to boaters. Does this certify competency in vessel handling proficiency? Absolutely not! However, it would be my hope that an applicant would at least gain an interest in learning more about the responsibilities that come with vessel operation.

Quite frankly, if there are any requirements to be made of a prospective boat operator it should be mandatory membership in this C-Brat site. There is such a tremendous amount of knowledge imparted here that you will never find in any textbook. This group is very candid and honest about their successess and even share their boating "failure" stories. (Oh, and lest I forget...."opinionated"... :wink )
 
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