Boater competentcy...

lloyds":urollvhu said:
I don't have a problem with minimal licensing, and that is what you have in Oregon. The test is easy but does require you to at least view many rules of the road before you answer the question.
Exactly right. Worth noting, however, that about 30% of the "old salts" in the Power Squadron course I took to prep for the test had significant misunderstandings (or, lack of knowledge) about navaids plotting courses, and similar. Easier to correct those things early in a boater's years of ownership than later. The PS course is a good intro for many folks.
 
Just pulling your anchor chain Jim :wink: we usually get into this kind of discussion in winter. At least you did not ask what tests you have to pass to buy some other forms of deadly weapons.

Wish there was a simple answer, but if we can at least reduce the level of ignorance it must help. If we do not educate then we can hardly complain about stupidity.

Have you ever noticed that you can be in the middle of many miles of open ocean yet the next boat along will gravitate onto a conflicting course ? Never really noticed it until I started using an autopilot and now I continually have to kick it out of gear. I know that when I am driving I am always adjusting to make sure I have a positive clearance with ALL other traffic no matter who has theoretical priority. (Unless its a C-Dory, then I aim straight for 'em). :love

Merv
 
matt_unique":wz5acqul said:
marvin4239":wz5acqul said:
... Of course jet ski's should be banned in all waters regardless of the operators age....

Why should jet skis be banned? Out of curiosity, have you ever ridden one?

I don't own one, but every now and again I will ride one if I get the opportunity. They are a lot of fun! It's like riding a motorcycle on the water.

Matt my comment about jet skis was made in jest I'm sure there is at least one responsible jet ski operator out there :D In my area of the country someone who has never operated a boat can go down and buy one that will go in excess of 60 MPH for very little money and with no training go out and endanger thier lives and the lives of others. The same thing is true about motorcycles but with motorcycles you have to pass a written exam to get a temporary permit to operate one until such time as you take the drivers test. With this law in place at least once a year we read of someone locally leaving a dealership after just purchasing a brand new shiny motorcycle and making a rider error on the way home and getting killed. With this in mind I don't think licensing has done much to prevent accidents with motorcyclist but I'm sure there are probably some statistics out there to show otherwise.
 
Grumpy":1p4mld1l said:
...
Have you ever noticed that you can be in the middle of many miles of open ocean yet the next boat along will gravitate onto a conflicting course ? Never really noticed it until I started using an autopilot and now I continually have to kick it out of gear. I know that when I am driving I am always adjusting to make sure I have a positive clearance with ALL other traffic no matter who has theoretical priority. (Unless its a C-Dory, then I aim straight for 'em). :love

Merv

While I don't use the autopilot in our boat a lot, it sure is nice when cruising at displacement speed. Something I learned early on in pilot training was to NOT put a waypoint into your nav gear right over a nav aid... VFR pilots might be using that same nav aid, not on flight following. A similar thing applies on the boat... ever been going through the fog and seen boats hanging out around a nav aid, waiting for someone with radar to follow??? :shock:
 
Not too long ago I took a defensive driving course sponsored by AAA. It was great. One of the many things the instructor reminded us was that our vehicle was a machine. We, as machine operators, have an obligation to be knowledgable, attentive, defensive and courteous.
 
Canada, where we do most of our boating will soon require a Boat Operator's Competency Certificate. :sad When I researched the subject I found they would also accept a U.S.(State) card. :smile I dug out a couple of old Power Squadron Certificates and mailed copies of them(along with I think it was $20.00) to Olympia and WALLAH! We now have a couple of Washington State Boater Education Cards. :wink

www.parks.wa.gov/boating (For the forms)

At least the money stayed here this time :smiled Jack
 
Oregon has a Boater Training requirements, phased in over a number of years. I also have a weapon carry permit, motorcycle indorsement, but can go to the local RV Dealer and buy and operate the biggest motorhome on the planet without any additional training beyond a driver's license. I do get a reduction on my boat insurance.

I think Boat Ramp Training would be great. If you have the training you could go to the express launch lane or take your chances with the public.
 
Here's an interesting thought. :teeth I also have a "Carry Permit", but at no time was I asked If I had ever passed a firearms safety class of any kind... :crook Kind of scary isn't it? :smileo I guess I can carry it as long as I don't shoot it. :disgust But that's probably another permit I'll have to apply for. :smiled Jack
 
There is no way that an "on the water" test could be given. There are so many different styles and sizes of boats. Taking a test in a dinghy would not translate to a 60 foot single screw sailboat.

The Coast Guard only requires "sea time" on various sized vessels (measured by tonnage) for their upgrades--as well as the various classes and tests. Unfortunately occasionally the "sea time" is not always honestly reported....

For example I had a friend who was dangerous on the water--and took the course at one of the night schools to get his OUPV limited license and open a charter operation with only one trip up the Ten Tom Waterway. Fortunately his business did not prosper and he now runs a pontoon boat on a small lake...
 
I think we ALL see, every day, or at least every day we are on the road, folks with drivers licences, that have passed tests, including driving tests that cannot drive worth a $%$##@%^&. A test does not make a good driver nor a good boater! :wink:


Charlie
 
Hi all,

I am a complete newbie who does not as yet own a boat. In preparation for the day when I do have enough money to buy one, I came up with an education plan; a sort of boating "ground school" as it were. I would value any guidance you can give me as to what else I should study.

I was once a Certified Flight Instructor, and I believe that thorough preparation on the ground tends to lead to safe flights. At the same time, I know darned well that book learning cannot substitute for experience.

As the old aviation saying goes, "Flying is not inherently dangerous, but to an even greater degree than the sea, it is entirely unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity, or neglect."

Training in theory of operations can hasten the learning curve, however. As a former Naval Flight Officer (C-130 overwater navigator), "I am an optimist by temperment and a pessimist by training." As such, I know well that, "It generally ain't what you don't know that kills you. It's what you think you know, but don't, that kills you."

After I retire in about 5 to 10 years, I would like to go cruising. I have been planning to start with a C-Dory 22 Cruiser or a C-Dory 25. Depending upon how I like it, I may then buy an ocean cruising boat (Gemini 105Mc??).

I live in Ventura County, California and I have looked longingly at "Islander" for sale by Ron. Alas, the time is not yet right, as I need to buy into the federal civil service retirement system with my eight years and a butt of active duty Navy time.

I joined the U.S. Power Squadron on the 26th of February, and I would value your opinions in re my self-imposed course of study:

CSUCI = California State University at Channel Islands
FCC = Federal Communications Commission
USCGA = United States Coast Guard Auxiliary
USPS = United States Power Squadron

COMPLETE - FCC Technician Amateur Radio License
COMPLETE - FCC General Amateur Radio License
COMPLETE - FCC Extra Amateur Radio License
COMPLETE - FCC Marine Radio Operator Permit (MROP)
COMPLETE - FCC General Radiotelephone Operator Permit (GROL)
COMPLETE - FCC GROL Radar Endorsement
COMPLETE - USPS Squadron Boating Course
COMPLETE - USPS Cruise Planning Course
COMPLETE - USPS Weather 101 Course
COMPLETE - USPS Weather 102 Course
COMPLETE - USPS Marine Electronics 101 Course
COMPLETE - USPS Marine Electronics 102 Course
COMPLETE - USPS Marine Electronics 103 Course
COMPLETE - USPS Seamanship Course
COMPLETE - USPS Piloting Course
TEST ORDERED - USPS Engine Maintenance Course
TEST ORDERED - USPS Sail 101
TEST ORDERED - USPS Sail 102
TEST ORDERED - USPS Advanced Piloting
FUTURE - USPS Junior Navigator Course
FUTURE - USPS Navigator Course
FUTURE - FCC GMDSS Operator
FUTURE - FCC GMDSS Maintainer
FUTURE - USCGA Communications Watch Officer
FUTURE - USCGA Coxswain
FUTURE - CSUCI Sailing Courses

Okay, so maybe I've been a little ambitious here. :embarrased

For practical factors training, I intend to join the U.S. Coast Guard Auxiliary and qualify as a coxswain and as a communications watch officer. As I am not conversant with USCGA nomenclature, I am not sure what they call these functions.

I also want to take some sailing courses at California State University at Channel Islands in Camarillo, as I doubt the Coast Guard Auxiliary teaches sailing.

Interestingly enough, my course of study tracks fairly well with the four notional USPS boat operator certifications. What do you all think of those?


Best Regards,
 
I don't have a definite view on licensing boaters (excluding PWC :mrgreen:) , but the argument that plenty of licensed drivers are dangerous etc. is not an argument against licensing. An argument against licensing would be that in two populations of drivers, one licensed and the other unlicensed the licensed population had no fewer accidents etc. than the licensed population. It's hard to believe that the amount of risky behavior that you see on the roads every day would be reduced if licensing was not required. On the other hand, the fact that insurance costs are lower for licensed boaters (captains) suggests that this type of licensing, too strenuous for general use, does indeed reduce accidents.
 
It has been brought to my attention that the video I referenced was in fact taken from a CG Aux vessel and not a USCG vessel. The video is certainly misleading since it shows a regular USCG cutter before the starboard gunwale shot of the actual boat collision.

My original point was that no license or authority removes poor decisions. I think there are fewer bad decisions among those who are licensed though. At least at one point a licensed person had to demonstrate knowledge of rules, safety, etc.
 
I will be making a private response to Morris_ri's post. Certainly one can take a number of on line or in person courses and gain a good deal of didactic knowlege. However this does not give you experience on the water. I would suggest that he, or any new boater--especially one who does not own a boat--get experience on the water. Since he eventaully wants to sail and cruise, then get some sea time on a sailboat. There are many ways to do this, but there are many paper yacht clubs and sailing clubs which have members who are more than happy to have crew members aboard-especially in races. There is no better way to learn to sail than to crew on a racing boat.

There is also a certain amount of inbreeding in some of the programs, especially if the instructors have no practical experience.

Another program--and it may be afilliated, is the Orange Coast College sailing program in Newport Beach. They have several real offshore vessels which make long cruises and take crew to be trained each year.

In the US we do not have the more formal "Yacht Master" type of programs which many of the European countries. These certify the crew/skipper for various types, sizes and voyages.
 
maybe dr. bob or capt. matt, or anyone else for that matter, can answer the following question. what is the percentage of boating accidents relative to the number of boaters, and how does that figure compare with automobiles?
as a river rat, my experience is that boaters, while most do not hold a boaters class certificate, still tend to be organized with respect to down-bound traffic stays to the starboard side of the river and up-bound traffic tends to operate on the port side of the river. i'm just not aware of numerous accidents.
i agree, in open water, traffic is all over the place with no particular scheme.
pat
 
capt. mattie,
this is not directed at you, or anyone else, but, if i've read and understood the florida 2007 report correctly, and i make know representations, that i have, it would appear that only .00065 percent of the florida boaters where involved in a boating accident and of those accidents only .00045 represented zero boating educational classes.
so, with that in mind, are we really experiencing a problem with accidents and/or the lack of boating educated captains?
your most humble servant,
pat
 
Interesting find Matt. The Florida report states that the major cause of fatalities 38% was falling overboard. Seems like simple training for this could be "wear a life jacket". As far as PWC they made up 13.2% of the registered boaters and at the same time 24% of the accidents which tells me a PWC is nearly twice as likely to be involved in and accident as other types of watercraft. The 70% having no formal training doesn't surprise me at all. My next door neighbor is a licensed off shore tug boat captain, not sure what license but he Captains a 100' plus tug which pulls huge barges to Puerto Rico and other destinations. I've been boating with him once which was the first time and the last time. While he definately knows all the rules of the road, navigation and how to handle the boats he owns he's pretty reckless. Seems as if he likes to flaunt his knowledge in rules of the road when simply giving way may be a better alternative. I don't think any amount of training changes this in some people until something serious happens on the other hand he's probably less likely to make the many stupid mistakes many untrained people make. Thanks for the link interesting stuff.
 
Bob Austin said in part:

thataway":22dufstq said:
In the US we do not have the more formal "Yacht Master" type of programs which many of the European countries. These certify the crew/skipper for various types, sizes and voyages.

The United States Power Squadron (USPS) has proposed just such a program for its members in the form of the USPS notional boat operator certification scheme. This would consist of four certifications. See:

http://www.usps.org/national/eddept/boc/main.htm

------

Background and Overview

With the Boat Operator's Certification Program, USPS will certify USPS members at various levels of recreational boating proficiency. We expect that these certifications will be recognized across the boating community, both domestically and internationally. In the United States, The United States Coast Guard (USCG) has asked congress to authorize the Transportation Secretary to establish requirements for standards of proficiency for recreational boaters. We intend to have USPS certification accepted as the above proof and be accepted as the national certificate for the USA.

Regarding international recognition, we plan to have certain USPS certifications meet or exceed the requirements of UN Resolution 40, International Certificate for the Operation of Pleasure Craft. Under this resolution, boaters holding national certificates will be able to obtain international certification, much like licensed drivers can obtain international drivers licenses.

USPS currently plans four levels of Boat Operator Certification:

Inland Navigator
Coastal Navigator
Advanced Coastal Navigator
Offshore Navigator

Requirements

Certification at any level requires successful completion of all prescribed elements including:

USPS courses - completions are tracked at USPS Headquarters

USPS and/or non-USPS seminars -signed off by instructor and tracked at Headquarters

Skill demonstrations on the water or, in some cases, ashore - signed-off by trained certifier and tracked at headquarters (some are US Sailing programs)

To be certified, a member must be at least 16 years of age, be mentally and physically capable of operating a boat, and have sufficient visual and auditory sensory ability to do so. Holding a drivers license will suffice to certify meeting these requirements.


Inland Navigator (IN) Requirements:


Courses

1) NASBLA approved safe boating course
2) Seamanship (or S 101 and S 102)
3) Engine Maintenance (EM)
4) Marine Electronics or Marine Electrical Systems or ME 101 Seminars
5) How to Use a Chart (CHT) (or Piloting, or Chart Smart or Boating)
6) Onboard Weather Forecasting (WF) or Weather course or Weather


Modules

1) Using GPS (GPS) or the new P or AP course
2) VHF Radio and VHF/DSC Marine Radio (or ME 102 or Marine Communications Systems)

2 additional seminars or 1 additional course


Skills

1) BPH - Basic Powerboat Handling skill demonstration or US Sailing Safe Powerboat Handling on-the-water program
2) FE - Use of Fire Extinguishers


Optional Endorsements

IW - Inland Waterways (Navigating Rivers, Dams and Locks seminar)
PAD - Paddle craft (canoes and kayaks) - Paddle Smart seminar
SA - Sailboating (or Sail or Sail Modules)

Note: The optional SA endorsement is required to be IN certified to operate a sailboat. The optional PAD endorsement is required to be IN certified to operate a paddle craft.


Coastal Navigator Requirements


Prerequisite

IN Certification


Courses

1) Piloting
2) Marine Electronics (or ME 102 or Marine Comunication Systems)
3) Cruise Planning


Seminars

1) Using Radar (RAD)
2) The Mariner's Compass (COMP)

2 additional seminars or one course


Skills

1) NAV - On-Water Navigation
2) PD - Use of Pyrotechnic Distress Signals


Optional Endorsements

IN Endorsements plus:
CAN - Canadian Regulations
MEX - Mexican regulations

Note: CN certification to operate a sailboat requires the SA endorsement. CN certification for paddle craft requires PAD.

Advanced Coastal Navigator and Offshore Navigator requirements will be posted when finalized. ACN and ON certification should be available in 2008 and/or 2009.


Passports

Members pursuing certification will have a "BOC Passport" to record their progress. Passports will be issued to SEOs soon. These will be signed by certifiers and instructors. For courses, seminars and skill demonstrations completed before the issuing of the passport, the SEO or certifier can sign the appropriate spaces based on national or squadron records. It is important for the member to keep a passport and for squadron certifiers to keep back-up records of these events.

...

------

Under this scheme, recertification would be required every five years, per the "Boat Operator Certification Certifier’s Manual". See:

http://www.usps.org/national/eddept/boc ... manual.pdf

------

Recertification
Recertification will be required every five (5) years with a yet to be determined recertification program. We will require periodic re-certification or proof of practice (on water experience or teaching the subject) and other updates as they become apparent. Technological advances or new requirements may require completion of selected seminars or classes for recertification in certain cases.

------

Certification policies are set forth on pages 8 and 9 of this document, and a summary overview of the four levels is printed on page 15.

The requirements for the last two notional certifications have apparently not been finalized. The draft requirements for the "Advanced Coastal Navigator" certification are found on pages 24 through 26, and the draft requirements for the "Offshore Navigator" certification are found on pages 27 and 28.

These requirements are summarized in tables on pages 54 and 55.

Best regards,

_________________
Rodger Morris morris_rl@yahoo.com
Scouter, AE6JC, LASFS Life Member, and Sidewalk Astronomer
Unitarian Jihad Name: "Brother Rail Gun of Quiet Reflection"
 
YACD":4qgcpru2 said:
An argument against licensing would be that in two populations of drivers, one licensed and the other unlicensed the licensed population had no fewer accidents etc. than the licensed population.

That's one way of measuring the good (if any) done by licensing, but it ignores the harm done.

Specifically, Texas, for example, requires kids 13 to 17 to possess a license to operate a boat solo. 12 and younger are not allowed solo operations. The law exempts small boats. All pretty reasonable requirements, it appears.

But then I compare them to reality, and the reality is that a 12 year old water rat who has grown up on boats might be well qualified to solo, while a completely inexperienced 13 year old who has merely passed a superficial written test is definitely not. Yet the licensing law will keep the 12 year old off the water while giving a government stamp of approval to the 13 year old, though he is really not ready. Similarly, the small boat exemption attacks problems which require a nuanced answer with the blunt instrument of a one-size-fits-all government rule. I had a 12' aluminum boat with a ten horse engine. Not exempt, requires a license. We got a 9.9 and the same boat would be exempt. Meanwhile, my friend up the canal had a much safer little 14' fiberglass skiff wtih a 15 hp engine. Not exempt, though safer for a kid.

I think the problem with kids on the water is there are not enough of them, and they're not doing enough things soon enough. Keeping a well qualified 12 year old off the water is a cost of this program, and arbitrarily exempting relatively unsafe boats while not exempting similar but safer ones is another. Those kinds of costs should also be weighed against any potential benefit that passing a simple written test might confer, IMHO.

OTOH, I'm a Ranger Tugs dealer, so I might be a bit biased on these kinds of questions.

Morris,

You're well on your way with the book learning part. I'm a former CFII myself. Let me ask you this: suppose a student completed all the ground school and written tests to get all the way to a commercial license with instrument rating. Would you let him solo? Me neither. Experience matters. Take lessons, go out with friends, or do whatever else you can to get out on the water. Have fun!
 
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