Boater competentcy...

J

JamesTXSD

Active member
Hi C-Brat friends,

On a sailing forum I participate in, the subject of a "boating license" comes up periodically. I don't post this to be divisive, but it seems to bring out strong opinions on both sides on that forum: those against any kind of government licensing and those that feel mandatory education (whether it's called a license or a competency card or whatever) is a good thing.

What's the general opinions here? Would you like to know that the guy with the 900 hp Cigarette boat coming at you has had to exhibit knowledge of the rules, or do you think there's enough intrusion? Some states already have these types of tests (Texas is an example, though for younger boaters). A drivers license in one state is valid while driving in another state... how should this be handled with boaters?

In visiting with other C-Brats, I feel this group is better informed than many other groups of boaters... have you studied Rules of the Road? Are you aware that there is a hierarchy of stand-on/give-way vessels? Do you carry something onboard to identify a nav aid if it is unfamiliar to you? Does your chartplotter chip allow you to click and pull up info on an aid? Where do you go for your boating education?

That should be more than enough questions to get some discussion going. I look forward to your responses.

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
Well, just having spent 6 weeks in a bay (San Francisco Estuary) and several small streams (Suisun Slough, etc.,) I assume there is no general knowledge of either boat right of way or overtaking requirements. I give way whichever way boats come at me, and try to guess as to what side people expect when overtaking. Lets not even talk about wakes. I assume the general rule is the faster the better.

We drive cars on marked roads with signals, but certainly there are no markings on water and the signals are passive. I'm not sure if training would help. I think that boat drivers would just take the course, and still drive any way they want. Not that I'm paranoid, but I'll even go in a circle to let the other boat go by.

Boris
 
After only a year and a half of boating we're already sorting destinations on "places less visited" and scheduling on "weekdays".

Had a discussion on this topic with my old flying mentor who dropped in a coule of days ago. My position is the boatingh doesn't legally require nearly the training that flying does, and it shows.

Paul Priest
Sequim
 
Many states already require boating licenses. To my knowledge there is no evidence that the boating accidents, or deaths have decreased because of these license. (Most states require a person born after a certain date have a license-thus it is gradually faded in--and for the most part a Coast Guard, Power Squadron or even an online course suffices for the license.

On the other hand, I have seen C G licensed "captains" do some really dumb things. So having a license or other piece of paper that you have been taught and quizzed on the rules of the road will not guarantee that you will act rationally or even within accord of the rules of the road.

I agree, there are a very high percent of boaters who have no clue what the rules of navigation or--and I drive defensively---just as I drive a car!

Incidently I tried to varify if there were a decrease in accidents--and found in many posts that there was absolute ignorance of rules in those who had responded to questions about licenses.
 
thataway":aap4hm9k said:
I have seen CG licensed "captains" do some really dumb things. So having a license or other piece of paper that you have been taught and quizzed on the rules of the road will not guarantee that you will act rationally or even within accord of the rules of the road.
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Amen. One need only drive down any Southern California freeway, or between Seatac Airport and northern Seattle on I-5 for that matter, to see ample evidence of the fact that passing a test doesn't guarantee competence. With our large number of CG licensed commercial boats there's always a few arrogant skippers to be wary of. Many are well known to local fishermen.

On the other hand, fatal vehicular accidents involving alcohol, drugs, or young inexperienced drivers are pretty common around here - be they boats or vehicles. Age requirements do limit accidents on Mission Bay among the jet ski crowd but stoners and alcoholics still abound. It's a scary world and I'd rather drive defensively too.

Bottom line? I don't think a license requirement will guarantees a thing. Aggressively enforcing the laws we already have and maybe a minimum age to be behind the wheel of a boat is all that's really needed.

Personal story: In my album is a shot from space of my marina. You can see two boats that are high powered Homeland Security cigarette boats with multiple engines in the same marina. Coming back one day, I'm tooling down the channel to the marina at the regulation 5 knots and suddenly one of those As______ passed me going at least 50. Was he going out to protect the bay? Nope. Just returning to his slip....

Gak Probably a damn donut break.

Don
 
thataway":1rx7t3c6 said:
...
On the other hand, I have seen C G licensed "captains" do some really dumb things. So having a license or other piece of paper that you have been taught and quizzed on the rules of the road will not guarantee that you will act rationally or even within accord of the rules of the road.

......
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I have seen the same. Accidents certainly do happen among licensed Captain's. Accidents also happen among those who are charged with enforcing the rules including Harbor Master's and USCG Patrol boats. There is a famous clip on You Tube where a USCG patrol boat actually filmed themselves crashing into another boat who had right of way.

I personally think Harbor Master's have no business being on the water when their is a nearby USCG station. These guys don't even need to be licensed but they can pull over and harass licensed Captain's. I have seen this first-hand.

As a group though, licensed Captains will have a MUCH lesser incidence of accidents compared to non-licensed owners. This is evidenced by insurance companies, many of whom offer better premiums for those who are licensed. The problem with licensing, in my opinion, is there is no driving test as is the case with driving cars or flying airplanes. And, you don't need a license if you're not carrying passengers. This is what has given way to the notion that "the bigger boat has right of way", any tool can buy a 60' boat and away they go.

Licensing (for any form of transportation) does not force competence but in my experience it at least narrows the gap.
 
Being mainly a freshwater boater, I'm a bit nervous when it comes to channel markers, rules of the road (water) and such, so I study stuph like that a bit more. It seems that as I gather knowledge, the more I notice that things like overtaking rules and right-of-way rules are rarely adhered to!
Don't get me started on the wake thang! The wife says that I get too stressed out over it because I get PO'd even if our boat isn't subject to the wakes of others in a no wake zone. I see this crap daily on our home lake, by boaters that are in our campground! Nice folks that wave...at wake speed...right thru the no wake zone! It's freak'n common sense, not to mention the signs/bouys!
We were camping/boating on a SC lake a few years ago, and all of the shoreline was rocky. They had old tires placed near campsites to pull your bow up on, and this guy was doing doughnuts on a jet ski 30' from a row of beached boats with no less than 4 NO WAKE bouys! I called the ranger, ranger came down and warned the guy...then after the ranger left he went back at it!
 
To my knowledge all states require individuals to pass a written test as well as demonstrate basic practical skills before issuing an auto drivers licence. Again, to my knowledge, all states enforce their driving rules with various degrees of vigor. Yet, despite the education and testing prior to licencing and the enforcement of driving rules once on the road, we all frequently witness poor driving, displays of poor driving judgement, and wantonly reckless driving. Why would our marine environment be any different? How would a boating class change personalities and improve judgement?
Actually, like auto drivers, I find the great majority of boaters to be sensible and courteous. The irresponsible ones generate a negative reaction and are memorable. It has been my experience that they are a small minority.
Inviting mandated testing is inviting more government bureacracy into our boating world. A license would certainly mean more direct and indirect costs. A license also means another officer of the government boarding our boats and possibly subjecting us to legal harassment. No thank you. My cup runneth over with officers of the government.
Regards,
Mike "Levity"
 
Oregon currently requires boaters age 69 and younger to pass a general knowledge test on basic boating rules, regs, and safety issues. This requirement has been phased in gradually, incrementing the age range ten years upward at a time, with I think an initial year for the program that included all boaters under the age of 30 or so. The original idea was to hit the "high risk" population of go-fasters, and then catch us old fuddy-duddies (I'm 64).

Many boaters take a Power Squadron course, tailored for this purpose, as a way to get up to snuff before they take the test. Although I had been a very active sea kayaker beforehand for a couple decades, I took the PS course, along with the other old guys, some having been boating for three or four decades. I learned a ton of useful stuff (and some fluff), most of it useful and important. So did many of the very much more experienced boaters. So, I'd say some sort of licensure is a good thing.

However, no such program is going to cure or correct the unsafe behavior of folks who don't care about safe boating.

In addition, there are many aspects of running a larger power boat (mine is only a 20-footer, but it has some quirks common to larger vessels, primarily windage and prop throw because it is an inboard) which you can not learn just from a classroom. I am a poster child for that fact, as I am in the early stages of sorting out those issues. In some sense, it might have been better to start cold with a power boat, instead of having been conditioned by sea kayaking. Paddling a lightweight, slow-moving vessel which has the capability of redirecting its propulsion in any direction, instantly, in no way prepares you for docking a power boat. And, it in no way prepares you to leave as much room for other vessels as is needed.

I've gotten in trouble relying on my "old reflexes" from paddling a couple of times. No harm done, but it might be worth reflecting on just how long it took each of you to sort things out before you felt competent at the helm.

It is that aggregation of skills and ability to anticipate problems that would be really desirable to build into training of new boaters. Without some sort of mentoring program, I suspect we are stuck with the Darwinian approach we have currently.

Here's hoping I survive!

BTW, some of you have expressed interest in how the Bartender is doing. Here's some video of the boat in the Gulf Islands, for those folks: http://tinyurl.com/6h9nvw Mine is Surf Scoter ... blue hull/white cabin and deck.
 
Personally, I'm all for licensing to boat and think everyone should have to demonstrate some basic knowledge of the rules. That doesn't mean they'll abide by them and it doesn't mean they won't be stupid but at least they'll know the rules of the road.

However, I'll take things one step (or maybe many steps) further. I think people should have to have a license/competency test prior to being permitted to mate! Even an IQ test would be good.... In my mind, if we could stop stupid people from passing their stupidity on to future generations, we wouldn't need so many laws or licenses. Alas, not only are stupid people allowed to mate, they often seem to mate more frequently than smart people. Later on, they grow up and buy cigarette boats, large Bayliners and they talk on their cell phone when they're in front of me in the grocery store checkout line..... :wink:
 
I don't think licensing would really help. Someone mentioned common sense being the problem and I agree that and lack of just plain old being curteosy to others is a big problem. Unfortunately these two issues can't be taught in a class room. Of course jet ski's should be banned in all waters regardless of the operators age. What I see around our area is the serious accidents resulting in injury are most times I hate to say alcohol related rather than lack of training or knowledge.
 
marvin4239":c1wwamj0 said:
... Of course jet ski's should be banned in all waters regardless of the operators age....
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Why should jet skis be banned? Out of curiosity, have you ever ridden one?

I don't own one, but every now and again I will ride one if I get the opportunity. They are a lot of fun! It's like riding a motorcycle on the water.
 
matt_unique":10btrle1 said:
marvin4239":10btrle1 said:
... Of course jet ski's should be banned in all waters regardless of the operators age....
Click to expand...

Why should jet skis be banned? Out of curiosity, have you ever ridden one?
Click to expand...

Matt, I am going to toss my 2 cents worth in here. It's more about the rider than it is the PWC. There are a few people who are quite responsible and ride safely, with consideration for others on the water. There are also, a lot more folks who don't give a damn about anyone but themselves. Ever been in a nice quite cove only to have a couple of clowns come in and cut the water up, making noise, chasing waterfowl, etc. It is the same group that gives snowboarding, snow machines and other such toys a bad name.

I think that Roger hit the nail on the head with his observation about the mating habits of the gene challenged.
 
I would take Roger's comment a stage further and suggest that we are genetically altering the human race by continually posting legally driven warnings on things that would normally remove idiots from the gene pool. Statistically this must increase the number of idiots and they are all likely to breed.

On the education side, it cannot hurt to ensure that all people operating a boat have at least a minimal education in the subject. If nothing else, it removes the "didn't know that" excuse and it MAY have an effect.

Enforcement on the water is a very difficult subject but if we can not stop the "wookies" at least we can learn to avoid them and that should be part of the the course. Like flying, better be old than bold.

My 2c worth.

Merv
 
Jim,
Most of my boating has been in has been in New Jersey. New Jersey has a boating licence requirement. I have taken a Coast Guard Auxiliary course in the past and feel that while the education requirement is a good start. Some people just have poor judgment or maybe they are just plain stupid. If it's not drinking, a drug addition it's the ole size 52 shirt and the two sized hat problem. I think there ought to be an actual on water driving test complete with launching docking,retrieval etc. To say clueless would be a comliment to some people after some of the the atrocities I've seen on the water. People doing a mayday to the Coasties because their motor won't start have to be told dude drop your anchor. I mean pretty basic stuff they have no idea. The total lack of courtesy at the launch ramps here is so out of control it almost gets funny. Some folks are obvious to fact other maybe waiting and turn the launch ramps into nesting areas. I guess they might be the same folks who after watching a two hundred dollar grocery order get rung up they then start searching for the check book or the credit card. I'm for better training for the less fortunate.
D.D.
 
rogerbum":3m1c69tp said:
... have a license/competency test prior to being permitted to mate! Even an IQ test would be good.... In my mind, if we could stop stupid people from passing their stupidity on to future generations ...
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Sounds just like some of the laws that were passed in Nazi Germany.

The July 1933 Law for the Prevention of Hereditarily Diseased Offspring, written by Ernst Rüdin and other theorists of "racial hygiene," established "Genetic Health Courts" which decided on compulsory sterilization of "any person suffering from a hereditary disease." These included, for the Nazis, those suffering from "Congenital Mental Deficiency," schizophrenia,"Manic-Depressive Insanity," "Hereditary Epilepsy," "Hereditary Chorea" (Huntington’s), Hereditary Blindness, Hereditary Deafness, "any severe hereditary deformity," as well as "any person suffering from severe alcoholism"[2].
 
Grumpy":2gul6c9n said:
Wow,

Must be February in Texas :lol:

Brave question Jim...

Merv
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Hi Merv,

February in our part of Texas will give us daytime highs around 70º - great boating weather! :mrgreen:

No, I wasn't feeling like I had nothing to do... again, not to be argumentative, there is a difference in attitude between many sailors and powerboaters. I read enough of the responses on that other forum to see that plenty of sailors think most powerboaters have no idea of the Rules. Thus, my reason for posting the questions here.

With the cruising we've done, we've seen plenty of stupid behavior on the water, in all manner of vessels. It makes me wonder if it's stupidity or ignorance? Oh, there were plenty of references to the "I know people with a captains license who don't know what they're doing.... etc, etc", implying that licensing doesn't work. While there are arrogant, stupid people in all endeavors, anyone with a captains license had to make it through a test that included a LOT of Rules of the Road, including sailing vessels, power vessels, vessels restricted by draft, etc, etc.

In all my posts here, I think this is the first where I've asked opinions just to get a feel for the general attitude of my Brat brothers and sisters.

Standing on docks, I've heard all manner of absurd discussions: "Sailboats always have the right of way" - well, no, the only use of "right of way" in the CFRs is in reference to inland river traffic. "Stand-on and give-way" seem to be foreign concepts to some. Horn signals? Yeah, the different toots do have meaning. :wink:

Some sailors think a boat should never throw a wake; and when it does, it's a deliberate act. :roll: Some powerboaters don't know why sailboats "zig and zag all over like they own the water."

Some basic education before getting behind the controls of any vehicle/vessel makes sense to me. Then, it's up to each person to take that education and put it into practice. To me, boating is a lifetime endeavor... I learn something everytime I go out and with each different boat.

PWCs? I've driven a couple and don't think I was a danger or a nuisance to anyone. The biggest problem with them is that feeling of power - that's not so different from a kid on a crotch rocket... testosterone and horsepower seem to combine to reduce judgement. I agree with the concept of "it's the person, not the vessel."

Many of the accidents on the water would go away if there could be some way of eliminating boating under the influence. Obviously, licensing and enforcement hasn't eliminated this problem from our roads, but that doesn't mean we should quit trying. I find it frightening that many people think it is their God-given right to knock back a couple 6-packs and go boating.

Perhaps education stressing the illegal aspects and stupidity of boating under the influence could make a difference? Unfortunately, we have generations of this mess to try to re-educate.

While in Yellowstone, I saw people on the docks renting boats who asked, "Where is the brake?" :crook No proof of knowledge was required to rent a boat there... just some ID and a credit card. And, they were allowed to get in those rental boats with a cooler full of adult beverages. I have no problem with an adult beverage... after the anchor is down and set or the boat is tied to the dock. Definitely NOT when behind the wheel.

Roger's take on "not letting stupid people breed" is something I've joked about before. As long as I'm on the upper side of the median... well, nevermind.

So, having asked the original questions... yes, I believe in education and some sort of proof of that knowledge.

I appreciate the discussion here and hope others will continue to contribute.

Best wishes,
Jim
 
Agreed. My suggestion was intended to be tongue in cheek. Nonetheless, I think it would be good to do what we can to increase the overall knowledge and intelligence of the human population. Maybe I should make the (equally?) radical suggestion that we devote sufficient resources and national attention to education. Dictatorships and fascist governments rarely come into being amongst a well educated and well cared for population.....

But this thread is about boating license requirements. Personally, I think the argument that people will still do stupid things even if there is a license requirement is not a good one. It is nearly universally agreed that some minimal level of competency is required to drive a car and most states and civilized countries assure that with a combination of written AND practical exams. With boats however some here want to argue that we should keep the status quo in many states where any ying yang can buy a boat in the morning and be endangering others in the afternoon by operating it on the water with no training, no understanding of the rules of the road and no operator competency tests. That just doesn't make any sense to me.
 
I don't have a problem with minimal licensing, and that is what you have in Oregon. The test is easy but does require you to at least view many rules of the road before you answer the question. When I first heard about it coming I was a little perturbed but I feel it is an okay idea and will have some benefit down the road.
 
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