Bay Star vs. Sea Star on 22 Cruiser: Understanding the diffs

[Sea Wolf]

Joe r u ok?
D.D.

Dave- I'm fine!

Actually it sounds like we're finally getting down to some conclusive results.

When a thread like this comes to some definitive conclusions, a summary should be written and then put ahead of the first post, so that future researchers can immediately get to the final conclusions without reading pages after pages of discussion, including hijackings, social commentaries, etc., etc. (I know, I'm as much responsible for that drivel as anybody!) The original poster should be responsible for writing up the final summary, or arrange to delegate it to someone willing to do it well.

I often wonder why more members don't throughly research a topic before they pose a "new" question, but for a number of reasons, it is often a long, tedious process, and it's not as much fun for the questioner as revisiting the subject again with everyone participating. It does, however, get kind of tiring for those writing the responses, again, again…...

If I had 5 years of time with nothing to do, I'd write an abstract of all the common questions asked repeatedly here and the standard answers tendered to them. I would make a nice handbook from which to start new discussions, since after reading the abstract summary, everyone would be on common ground, and much of the usual initial discussion would have been covered.

But most folks don't think or operate like I'm suggesting, so I guess I'm just entertaining myself with hypothetical improbabilities!

OK, so what do you think about whether a C-Dory should have twins, a single, or a single with a kicker? :monty

Nice yaking' with ya'! :lol:

Joe. :teeth :thup

 

[Kushtaka]

Make sure you have a funnel / hose to be able to get that hydraulic steering fluid where it needs to go.

And don't forget a push pin or thumb tack to get the fluid out of the bottle if you use a hose! Then a zip lock to put the bottle in when you're done!

 

[Sunbeam]

When a thread like this comes to some definitive conclusions, a summary should be written and then put ahead of the first post...The original poster should be responsible for writing up the final summary, or arrange to delegate it to someone willing to do it well.

I'm the original poster in this thread, but I don't agree with this idea. One reason is that I don't feel there are always "definitive conclusions." Or, my "definitive conclusions" are not the same ones that others would make. Also, many threads do not end (meaning that they are revisited later). I do try to make it easy for future searchers, by attempting to write clearly, include searchable terms, use properly spelled product names, add links or photos, etc. That way people can draw their own conclusions from the information presented.

I often wonder why more members don't throughly research a topic before they pose a "new" question, but for a number of reasons, it is often a long, tedious process, and it's not as much fun for the questioner as revisiting the subject again with everyone participating. It does, however, get kind of tiring for those writing the responses, again, again…...

Not sure if you are addressing anyone specifically here, but again, since I'm the OP of this thread, I will respond (speaking for myself, anyway). I do always research things before posing a new thread. I usually find some good information, and I do read through it. However, I may still want to post. Sometimes I tack onto an older-yet-similar thread if it seems appropriate, so as to keep topics together. Other times I start a new one. Of the latter times, there might be a few reasons:

1) My situation is different enough from the prior ones that I need to ask something new.

2) The prior thread didn't ever answer the question (or tangential question) that was posed.

3) The prior thread is so old that a new one seems like a better idea.

One example of this is that I got some information about the Bay Star steering cylinder by searching older threads here. The information was posted by a very knowledgeable source. Yet that information is incorrect now simply because over 12 years' time the product has changed. Glad I asked again instead of going by that thread.

All that said, I don't run the board, so if rules such as you suggest are established, I will behave accordingly.

Sunbeam

 

[nimrod]

I kind of create topic summaries on my own for my purposes. I'll do an exhaustive thread search on my topic of interest, and cut/paste passages from posts into a Word doc. I include poster attribution in case I want to ask followup questions of the original poster. For me, it's a way to sort through all the posts and kind of separate the wheat from the chaff, and collect all of the chewy goodness in one place.

jd

 

[journey on]

Just to clear something up, an autopilot or second helm are NOT backups. They are in parallel with the main helm pump and depend on pressure in the same lines to pressurize the same drive cylinder. If one pump loses pressure, they all lose pressure. If the cylinder fails, no pump will drive the cylinder.

I would guess that the Seastar and Baystar cylinders are not interchangeable, unless you buy the complete kit. Lines fail and seals leak, so those would be a good idea for spares.

I carry fluid and a fill kit. That's good for a small leak, or topping up. Doesn't help on a failure.

Again, the hydraulic steering on Journey On has worked for 8 years without a failure. The only real failures that I've heard of are with twin 150's. So for anything less I'd go with Seastar and quit worrying.

Boris

 

[Captains Cat]

Seastar or Baystar? :?:

Charlie

 

[Will-C]

I would value Marc from Wefings assessment that Sea Star was / is the winner. In spite of some owners having had good luck with the Bay Star version, Florida I think has a much higher salinity than Alaska. That might attribute to the reported Bay Star failures. Plus no matter how hardy the individual from Alaska might be the boating season in Florida is all year long. Saving the $ 250 dollars is a point for some, but you already blew a pile of dollars on the boat but IMHO why not buy a little extra insurance if you are replacing it anyway and land the Sea Star version. Got Bay Star already no problem keep it. Want to save 250 dollars get the Bay Star. No matter what you have buy having an extra cable if you still have cable steering, a seal kit and some spare hydraulic fluid for the hydraulic crowd. For me I would use what hydraulic oil the manufacturer recommends. Remember a funnel or hose with push pin and ziplock bag to get the replacement fluid into the system Oh yeah, fashion some sort of emergency steering system, remember besides looking hulky duck tape is your friend. This thread might never have a conclusion. Watch your spelling mommy is watching. :|

Joe King

 

[Jake]

Per the web site, Les uses BayStar on the Marinaut. Just to save $250? I don't know, would guess he feels it is a very reliable system.

 

[Will-C]

I'm sure Bay Star is a dependable system. In Marc's (Wefing's) area of the country he thinks differently. Beings that I boat on the east coast including Florida I value Marc's opinion over Les's from Marinaut but that's just me. Just opinions here and you are certainly allowed to have your own. If I was buying a Marinaut I would have Les put on the Sea Star. But that's just me.
Joe King

 

[Sunbeam]

What I like about reading Les's recommendations (for steering or other items) is that he explains his reasoning in detail. I learn something, and, more importantly to me, I also have the chance to decide whether his priorities/reasons are also mine. IF he said he were putting on Bay Star just to save $250 (actually it seems like more difference than that by the time you buy the lines, but that's neither here nor there at the moment), but that otherwise the Sea Star was more appropriate, then I would likely decide that his reason wasn't my reason and I would somewhat discount his opinion (in this particular case). On the other hand, if (as it was in 2002), he chose it because it was a tidier fit, then I could likewise decide whether or not that was a priority for me. Either way I understand the details of how he made his choice, which is a big help to me in making mine. I don't know why he is choosing Bay Star now (but I am glad he is apparently busy building boats).

Thing is, oftentimes it's not about "best" - to me - in making my decisions. I mean hey, a 250# anchor is better and more expensive than a 20# one... right? But... not for my 22 -- and I would not consider the 20# one to be cheaping out for my particular boat. It's appropriate and fits. Granted, that is an extreme example, and not directly comparable to Bay Star vs. Sea Star, but I'm just using it to explain my thinking and why I don't automatically go for the Sea Star. There seems to be some misunderstanding in regards to my choice being "about price," which it is not. I mean, I wouldn't have needed to ask if it was all about price, as I could simply have looked online and then purchased the Bay Star.

I may very well choose the Sea Star in the end. I started this thread to learn some of the differences, as applied to our specific boats, so I could make an informed choice. I like to hear from those who already have either system on a C-Dory (because that's the type of thing that is not easy to find on the Teleflex website and/or other forums).

 

[Big Mac]

Hello Sunbeam, maybe I can help here with your decision. I have both BayStar hydraulic steering and Les installed it. We bought our C-dory 22' cruiser new in 2001. It had the factory cable steering. It worked fine for many years and then we started having stiff steering and also it would lock up over the winter.

Flash forward to 2011 and we decided to upgrade to hydraulic steering. I had several conversations with Les at EQ and had him install BayStar steering and Lenco trim tabs at the same time. After It was installed I wondered, why did I wait so long. We are really happy with both items. Les and I discussed the difference between BayStar and SeaStar and agreed BayStar was perfect for our boat. We have twin 40hp Hondas. You will not go wrong with BayStar.

 

[Kushtaka]

Just to clear something up, an autopilot or second helm are NOT backups. They are in parallel with the main helm pump and depend on pressure in the same lines to pressurize the same drive cylinder. If one pump loses pressure, they all lose pressure. If the cylinder fails, no pump will drive the cylinder.

(snip)

Again, the hydraulic steering on Journey On has worked for 8 years without a failure. The only real failures that I've heard of are with twin 150's. So for anything less I'd go with Seastar and quit worrying.

Boris

True, however, if you have a second helm, and the helm pump fails at either station, you could easily enough remove the failed helm from the loop, and restore hydraulic steering.

I'm glad you have had 8 years of success. I've had a seastar system fail on me in its first five hours, so there's a counterbalance.

I will fully acknowledge that I may operate in a mode that most experienced boaters would consider "overkill," but the speed at which minor issues escalate into life-threatening out here in bush alaska is not to be forgotten.

 

[thataway]

I have had a number of hydraulic boat steering systems. Most have served us well. The Tom Cat Sea Star failed on the second real trip--but that was with counter rotating twins, in an aggressive reverse situation. The larger sized pump sent by Teleflex did well without fail. There was a comment that the pump used was not the proper size for the two 150 hp outboards.

Not locking the outboards on our boats, when trailering, is hard on the hydraulic systems.

On our European trip (41,000 miles at sea) we had to rebuild both the Hynautics helm pumps (company now owned by Sea Star solution) once each, as well as new seals in the cylinder. Most of the problem was caused by debris left in the copper pipes when the boat was built. (Half way across the Atlantic in 70 knots of breeze, is probably as remote asThe Bush in AK. )

I also found out that it took an 8 foot emergency tiller a lot of pressure to over come 1000 PSI pressure relief valves.

 

[Sunbeam]

Not locking the outboards on our boats, when trailering, is hard on the hydraulic systems.

Would you mind expanding on this a bit? My 8hp Honda has a lock feature (and will not be hydraulically steered in any case), but, as far as I know, my main engine - an 80hp Yamaha - does not. As it stands, with the cable steering, I don't believe it moves at all when trailering, but... it sounds like that may change with the hydraulic steering, and I may need to actively do something to restrain it? How have you "locked" the outboards with hydraulic steering when trailering?

Thanks.

 

[journey on]

Kushtaka,

In the reliability field, there's a term called infant mortality. This means, as you probably know, that items will fail at the start of life due to some undiscovered manufacturing defect. Isn't it reasonable to assume that this is what happened within the first 5 hours of operation, since SeaStar steering isn't prone to such early failures? For instance a seal could have been nicked when installed, or a hose improperly connected.

Or was there some reason that caused it to fail? Bob/thataway mentions that he blew out his steering backing down with a pair of 150's, which would indicate that the steering was overstressed. So were you using the steering in some stressful situation?

As to removing a leaking pump, plugging the lines, re-bleeding the system and going on, one certainly could. If one is that concerned about a steering failure, install shutoff vales in the system on one could isolate the failed part. I still feel that Seastar steering is reliable enough so those measures are not needed. My opinion.

Boris

 

[thataway]

Other than the initial failure, my Sea/Bay Star systems have been relititively trouble free. Yes, Boris, I think that hard reversing was stressing the steering. The counter rotating engines, would probably have more torque from the props in reverse, than going forward--because of the design of propellors. I was able to steer the boat back to the dock--only hundred yards--even though the engines were going in different directions. It may have been infant mortality--but the senior VP of Sea Star felt that the wrong helm unit had been used. (I called Sea Star almost immediately, because I had a boat full of people who wanted a ride. The only person in the office was a senior vice president, who arranged for overnight shipping of a new helm unit. Our guest went for a ride in the Century 18 center console, not the new Tom Cat 255.


Sunbeam, There are hard rubber blocks, as used on the tilt/lift cylinders to keep the motor centered. You can make wooden or plastic blocks or even slip heavy tubing over the cylinder arms. The engine will slowly drift to one side--and this is hard on the hydraulic system, since this is all "creep" which is a characteristic of hydraulic steering. If you had sailed a sail boat with hydraulic steering you would have experienced hydraulic creep, where the wheel slowly--maybe even imperceptably moves to the side where you have pressure against a weather helm.

 

[Sunbeam]

There are hard rubber blocks, as used on the tilt/lift cylinders to keep the motor centered. You can make wooden or plastic blocks or even slip heavy tubing over the cylinder arms.

Thanks - I'll make sure to block the engine/cylinders if/when I install the hydraulic steering. Glad you mentioned it. (Maybe it would have been in the instructions once I had the unit in hand, but it's good to know now anyway.)

 

[Jake]

Per the web site, Les uses BayStar on the Marinaut. Just to save $250? I don't know, would guess he feels it is a very reliable system.

And I should add that Les has also used Sea Star on the Marinaut. I would assume at customer request or maybe he has changed what is standard.

 

[Sea Wolf]

I wrote Les an email today and asked him to comment on this thread if he has the time to spare.

Joe. :teeth :thup

 

[rogerbum]

Other than the initial failure, my Sea/Bay Star systems have been relititively trouble free. Yes, Boris, I think that hard reversing was stressing the steering. The counter rotating engines, would probably have more torque from the props in reverse, than going forward--because of the design of propellors. I was able to steer the boat back to the dock--only hundred yards--even though the engines were going in different directions. It may have been infant mortality--but the senior VP of Sea Star felt that the wrong helm unit had been used. (I called Sea Star almost immediately, because I had a boat full of people who wanted a ride. The only person in the office was a senior vice president, who arranged for overnight shipping of a new helm unit. Our guest went for a ride in the Century 18 center console, not the new Tom Cat 255.
<stuff clipped>

Interesting. The only failure I had (e.g. the one where the steering blew fluid out the fill cap) was in a situation in which I had to reverse against a very strong current with the engines hard over trying to get off the dock in a strong tidal "river" in Tofino (probably 4-6kts coming in a slight angle off the starboard stern).

After describing just that the I was reversing into a strong current and that fluid blew out of the fill cap, the first question the SeasStar service tech on the phone asked was "Do you have a twin engine cat?" Now I'm starting to understand how the combination of widely space twins and counter rotating props hard over could generate a lot of pressure in the system. That combined with probably low fluid and an air bubble is what I think caused the problem.