Bay Star vs. Sea Star on 22 Cruiser: Understanding the diffs

[Sunbeam]

Since..so much seems to ride on Les's past stated preference for the BayStar system that is not presently clear, I suggest you write him a PM and ask that he comment on this thread.

I thought about that, but I just knew I had the information somewhere -- I only had to find it :wink: Anyway, here we go, fresh from the year 2002 :wink

From: LesLampman Sent: 12/1/2002 4:52 PM

The Teleflex BayStar system is the "factory standard" hydraulic system from C-Dory on the CD22s. It's the model that was installed on C-Salt and it worked superbly even when equipped with the Raymarine ST5000+ autopilot.

The BayStar system uses 3/8" hydraulic tubing rather than the large hydraulic hoses that the SeaStar system uses and has a molded helm unit rather than aluminum. They can do this because the BayStar system does not have to generate the amount of PSI that the SeaStar system does (which is what the 150hp limit is about). Those big hoses on the SeaStar system are spendy (and don't come with the helm kit) and come in one foot increments, the ends are swaged on. The 3/8" tubing the BayStar utilizes comes in a roll with the steering kit and is easy to cut with a tube cutter; it uses compression fittings rather than swaged fittings.

And the part I like best (other than the much lower price) ... the BayStar uses a fixed cylinder, moving ram system rather that the fixed ram and moving cylinder of the SeaStar. That means the hydraulic tubes going to the cylinder on the outboard do not have to move in the motorwell. The BayStar system uses the same drag-link that the cable steering system does so it's easy to hook up at the motor end. In fact, the whole installation is pretty easy.

The BayStar cylinder is universal for all outboards since it doesn't connect directly to the engine; it's held by a rod through the tilt tube but doesn't connect to the outboard's steering arm. Instead, as mentioned above, it uses the standard drag link that came with the engine.

I love hydraulic steering so I'm not an objective person to ask about whether or not it's worth it. If I had a CD16 with a Honda BF50 it would have BayStar steering; I like it that much.

Plus it makes adding a good autopilot really easy.

Les


Now, everyone may not agree with the information above (who knows, maybe I wouldn't either once I had laid hands on both systems); but it's what had stuck in the back of my mind that I was trying to remember/understand. I'm still completely open to either system, and will be until I purchase one or the other. In fact, my usual tendency is to go for the heavier-duty setup, all else being equal.

 

[ckcpony]

Sunbeam, I have been following this thread with interest because I had these same questions about Baystar vs Seastar a few weeks ago. I have twin 40 Hondas and after I finally settled on a Baystar system I got one and installed it. Now I know that Teleflex flatly states that Baystar is not designed for twin engine applications but I had read Jay's (Hunky Dory) posts and he has Baystar with twin 40's so I figured that I could figure out how to make it work. Well to make a long story short "I couldn't ". Well after a lot of head scratching and false starts I finally figured it out. When Leslampman posted his opinion about Baystar and When Jay installed his Baystar Teleflex was selling Baystar cylinder model number HC4600 which they have now discontinued. It mounted as Les described it rather than the way both Baystar and Seastar do with the current models . With the old HC4600 the cylinder stays stationary and you don't need a big curve in the hoses to allow for cylinder movement . After figuring this out I bought a HC4600 cylinder off of E-Bay and got my system working in no time. A piece of cake. There is a HC4600 cylinder on E-Bay now if you are interested. Teleflex still sells seals for the old style cylinder. By the way I have an installed but never used newer model Baystar cylinder for sale for $150 if anyone is interested.
Jay and Les I hope you don't mind if I referenced your previous posts.
Teleflex also says that Baystar can't be used with dual helm systems but mine seems to be working fine.
Clint

 

[Sunbeam]

Sunbeam, I have been following this thread with interest because I had these same questions about Baystar vs Seastar a few weeks ago.

Cool :thup

I have twin 40 Hondas and after I finally settled on a Baystar system...after a lot of head scratching and false starts I finally figured it out.

Good sleuthing!

... Baystar cylinder model number HC4600 which they have now discontinued. It mounted as Les described it rather than the way both Baystar and Seastar do with the current models.

Ah - so if I'm reading this right, the "advantage" that the Baystar had as described by Les (tidier in the cockpit due to which part moved) is no longer applicable to current models. That is great information to have. Nothing like making a decision based on a factor that no longer even applies. That would have been a bummer.

I think I'll probably go with a current system vs. looking for "previous" parts on eBay (but I'm really glad you replied with this info - super useful), and so I think this means I can take the "which part moves" factor out as a difference. Good to know.

Sunbeam

 

[Pandion]

... after figuring this out I bought a HC4600 cylinder off of E-Bay and got my system working in no time. A piece of cake ...

ckpony, what level of mechanical competence do you think is needed for the Baystar/HC4600 installation, with twin 40s?

 

[ckcpony]

]Pandion, installing the HC4600 cylinder is much easier than the current Baystar or Seastar models . You attach it to the starboard engine tilt tube much like you would a mechanical steering cable. And unlike the Seastar cylinder which requires an expensive drag link to connect to your port engine (manufactured by, "guess who" Seastar) you can simply use your existing drag link and you're good to go.
It's a good idea to attach the starboard end of the link to the top of the engine steering bracket to avoid the link coming in contact with the steering cylinder when you tilt the engines up.
Clint

 

[SEA3PO]

I finally got my leak stopped on the Baystar helm unit...turned out that the rebuild "kit" gave me a undersized O-ring... once I installed the proper size O-ring everything was fine.... BUT I decided to replace the helm with a new Seastar helm as I really don't like how the shaft seal is designed and I would forever worry about it starting to leak again... just a bad design having a shaft seal housing that sorta free floats..and a O-ring that seals the seal holder.... the new Seastar has just one seal that eliminates the O-ring...

Joel
SEA3PO

 

[Sunbeam]

I finally got my leak stopped on the Baystar helm unit...turned out that the rebuild "kit" gave me a undersized O-ring... once I installed the proper size O-ring everything was fine....

That's good to hear :thup

BUT I decided to replace the helm with a new Seastar helm as I really don't like how the shaft seal is designed and I would forever worry about it starting to leak again... just a bad design having a shaft seal housing that sorta free floats..and a O-ring that seals the seal holder.... the new Seastar has just one seal that eliminates the O-ring...

So this is the helm part of the unit you are speaking of... right? i.e. the part just ahead of the wheel in the cabin. Do you know if the current Bay Star still has the design you don't like? (Sounds like it does, but just checking since you are replacing an older unit.)

Thanks for any info (if you have it), and glad to hear you are up and running with no leaks (although I understand why you have lost trust in it and will be replacing it).

 

[SEA3PO]

Yes the two new design helm units are alike in their sealing of the shaft....it is a seal with a lip on the outside and inside...I would think that the outside lip would also lock into position and not allow the the seal to free float...

The dimensions of the units are the same and so the Baystar and Seastar would look identical...with the exception of the Seastar being a bit more heavy duty....the difference between the two helm units was roughly $100
the new Seastar helm was $344 (Amazon, no tax, free shipping)

When I originally installed my system I had heavy duty hydraulic lines made up as I thought the tubing that the Baystar came with to be a bit light weight.

I am using Baystar Rams on my twin Yamaha 40 motors and they have never leaked... seems to work just fine.

I also use synthetic steering fluid...much , much less expensive than Seastar fluid...

Joel
SEA3PO

 

[Sunbeam]

Great info, thanks. It's always nice to hear that a company is improving their products - even (or especially) the "least fancy" ones :thup I also didn't realize that one could "mix and match" the helm unit with the unit back in the splashwell. Don't know if I would want to do that, but it's always nice to know what the options are (I do like the idea of the Sea Star tilt helm - not because I would likely tilt it on a regular basis, but more because it would give me options for where to "set and forget" it for comfort vs. the fixed position of the Bay Star helm).

 

[Wandering Sagebrush]

Ha ! I love it...now I will admit to hooking up my automatic trim tabs backwards.... made a hard turn and almost tipped the boat over... like an airplane doing a roll... scared the heck out of me.
<snip>
Joel
SEA3PO

Since it's true confessions, I reversed the lines when installing my SeaStar. Caught when bleeding the system.

 

[journey on]

This discussion has gone on long enough for me to make an intelligent comment, since I just got the parts to rebuild the Seastar hydraulic cylinder.

First, let me point out a truism: if you have a hydraulic leak or another failure, YOU HAVE NO STEERING. With a mechanical system, you may be able to jury rig something, duct tape or wire, but you can't with a hydraulic system. Given that fact, one should do the best one can to prevent a failure, right?

The Seastar steering on Journey On has been there for 8 years (my, how time passes when you're having fun,) and needs to be re-bled. There are no signs of leakage, so I'm chalking it up to a large thermal change (summer to winter,) allowing the hydraulic fluid to contract to the point where it allowed air to enter via the steering pump. Anyway, before bleeding it, I decided to replace the hydraulic cylinder seals. Looking at the new seals, I think that Seastar did a good job: a wiper o-ring backed up by support bushings on each side. Which probably explains why I've had no problems before.

Reading this blog/post/thread, I started looking at the Baystar steering. First, both Seastar and Baystar helm pumps have the same working pressure @ 1000 psi, though Seastar has options for 1500 psi. That means that the hydraulic cylinder gets the same pressure whatever you buy. So, then I looked at the Baystar vs Seastar hydraulic cylinders. The Seastar, in my opinion, has a sturdier design. And I think that also goes for the other components: Seastar is certainly sturdier.

So that makes the Seastar more reliable, since most failures discussed in C-Brats have been hydraulic failures.

I reviewed Les's comments, and most of them had to do with installation and ergonomics, certainly discriminators, but for the small difference in cost, I'd go with Seastar, unless as Les said, you're putting this on a 16' C-Dory. If your hydraulic steering fails, cost is the last thing going through your mind. You're just trying to get the boat home.

Also note that Baystar is no longer offering the drag link type cylinder that Les discusses. Here's the newBaystar configuration. I think the changes include changing to Seastar type hydraulic lines. Make sure you get the new type.

Boris

 

[Sunbeam]

This discussion has gone on long enough for me to make an intelligent comment, since I just got the parts to rebuild the Seastar hydraulic cylinder.

Glad you chimed in :thup

First, let me point out a truism: if you have a hydraulic leak or another failure, YOU HAVE NO STEERING. With a mechanical system, you may be able to jury rig something, duct tape or wire, but you can't with a hydraulic system.

I don't know one way or the other yet, since I have little experience with either system (hey, last time I had a boat with a wheel, it had wire rope and little "pulleys" for the steering!), but I did notice that in one of Les's posts I had saved, he said the opposite, which was that oftentimes you could make it in with leaking hydraulic steering, whereas a seized able isn't doing anything. I suppose it depends on how catastrophic said leak is. OTOH, I have a tiller-steered kicker, so that gives another option altogether.

Also note that Baystar is no longer offering the drag link type cylinder that Les discusses.

That's a key piece of info that this thread gave me, and things like that are a major reason I started it in the first place. How annoying would it have been to choose Bay Star based on that one "fact" and then to find out it was no longer even true! :cry (Of course it was accurate when it was posted in 2002.)

For me this is a perfect discussion for January -- as I think over the various systems and projects for the 22 -- and I appreciate everyone's contributions :thup

 

[Captains Cat]

OTOH, if you have a TomCat and widely spaced twins (lets don't start that debate again :shock: ). You will have a modicum of steering without the hydraulics.

Charlie

 

[Kushtaka]

I am also following this post with interest as I'm going to be going hydraulic soon and have similar concerns, priorities, etc.


I've never had my cable fail on me, but I sure have had it get sticky. I've had hydraulic systems fail on me, but I'm still planning to make the shift to hydraulic.

If one were to use their boat regularly in very remote areas where a short unplanned swim means a quick death, and learning that parts from these systems are interchangeable, I'm thinking the thing to do would be to install a seastar system, and keep a backup baystar ram on board. Maybe some of the lightest hydraulic hoses that will work as well, just to run straight from the helm to the ram in a pinch? That's maybe a bit of overkill where sea tow is an option, but I'm starting to think it sounds reasonable.

I think that repair would be doable in less than ideal conditions if you could put out your anchor or a sea anchor to keep your nose into the weather. For the additonal cost of a baystar ram, you essentially get something close to a redundant system (albeit with a little elbow grease).

Sunbeam, from what you mentioned about your concerns about price in this scenario, it seems like the above would give you the highest additional margin of safety at the lowest cost.

 

[Kushtaka]

After considering the above, I think it would be prudent to add that a second helm or autopilot would be needed for the system to be truly redundant. That or a backup helm pump.

 

[Sunbeam]

I am also following this post with interest as I'm going to be going hydraulic soon and have similar concerns, priorities, etc.

Cool - the thread can do double duty :thup

Sunbeam, from what you mentioned about your concerns about price in this scenario, it seems like the above would give you the highest additional margin of safety at the lowest cost.

I'm not sure if I'm mis-reading you, or if I didn't communicate very well above, but just to clarify, price is the least important factor to me in choosing which hydraulic system (or combination of systems) to go with. I mean, I'm not going to pick a system *because* it's more expensive (that would be silly, to me); but given the prominence of a steering system in overall use of the boat, price is not my deciding factor. It's factors like overall design, quality,"tidyness," personal appeal, and customer service that sway me when I'm looking at purchasing something. Now, if one steering system was $200 and the other was $6000 that would be different. But in this case I think the (difference in) price would be long forgotten while the experience of using it would remain.

If I misread what you wrote and just blathered on for nothing.... never mind! It's just that a few people in the thread got the idea that I was concerned about price, or trying to "cheap out," and I didn't want that to mistakenly color the conversation. Again, not that I'm trying to "waste" money, but I think either Bay Star or Sea Star would be a worthy expenditure and I want to get whichever one suits me better.

Interesting thoughts about carrying spares. I would like to get out into the hinterlands, but will probably just do one "good" steering installation, count on that (while bringing along spare fluid, etc.), and then if it stops working just use the tiller-steered kicker to get myself back to "someplace." Always interesting to discuss "what-ifs" though.

 

[rogerbum]

I had some problems with the hydraulic system on my boat that involved a slow but imperceptible leak until the steering got bad. In my case the first noticeable symptom was that due to trapped air in the system and a very strong current that required me to back off the dock with the engines hard over, pressure built up and blew hydraulic fluid out the fill cap (which blew off). Even with this happening, I didn't completely lose steering (thank goodness) and I managed to operate the boat for a fishing trip until the current slacked and it was easier to return to the dock. So small (or even moderate) leaks don't generally cause a complete loss of steering and you can top off the fluid and the units (somewhat) self bleed (but it's better if you bleed them properly). Also, as Sunbeam pointed out, they tend not to seize up like a cable so you can jury-rig a tiller and move the engine when the hydraulics fail (deck pole + lots of duct tape and maybe some rope).

 

[Chris]

Regardless of the type of steering you might settle on...be sure to fashion yourself an emergency tiller of some sort. Easy to do...a chunk of square tube a few feet long...with a couple of holes to bolt to the steering bracket on the motor...the holes in the bracket are already there. A little kick so it clears the transom...will save the day when that motor starts flopping back and forth!

 

[Captains Cat]

After considering the above, I think it would be prudent to add that a second helm or autopilot would be needed for the system to be truly redundant. That or a backup helm pump.

The only true backup is a Bolt Cutter and a tiller or broomstick and duct tape!

Charlie

 

[Will-C]

It would not be against the rules to carry a seal kit or at least some spare hydraulic fluid to get you out of a jam. Or you could carry a whole extra steering cable if you want go that way. Make sure you have a funnel / hose to be able to get that hydraulic steering fluid where it needs to go. I think I'll rig up something to be able to use our boat hook for emergency steering Justin Case. It' like me at a Chinese restaurant soo many choices. Joe r u ok?
D.D.