Bay Star vs. Sea Star on 22 Cruiser: Understanding the diffs

[Sunbeam]

In a classic example of "it's all connected," the tidying up of wiring behind the helm is leading me to want to replace my Teleflex cable steering with hydraulic steering (this isn't the only reason - I have others - but if I am going to replace it, it makes sense to arrange the tidied wiring around the new steering vs. the big ol' lump of Teleflex that is behind the helm now).

My current decision is.... Bay Star or Sea Star. I see that Bay Star is fully adequate (22 Cruiser with usual size single main engine), and that Sea Star can also work and is "above" the Bay Star in the model hierarchy. What I want to fully understand before choosing is the differences and the pro's and cons of each. From what I think I know now (although I'm not completely clear on these things):

Bay Star

1) Adequate although "below" Sea Star.
2) May have lines that are easier to cut to size?
3) Has steering arm style in splashwell that is smaller/tidier - something about which part moves and which part is fixed...
4) Has available inset/angled mount, but no tilt option.

Sea Star
1) More robust for 22 (although Bay Star may be perfectly adequate).
2) May have lines that are somehow more complicated to cut to size (?)
3) Has steering arm in splashwell that works "opposite" to Bay Star and may be less compact/tidy in operation?
4) Can be had with tilt steering option.

Thoughts:

1) Although I'm all for heavy-duty, if it's not needed then it may not matter.
2) I don't mind a bit more fuss during installation if there is a good reason for it; at least it only happens once.
3) I would like to understand this - and its ramifications - better, as the splashwell is already "busy" in my 22.
4) I don't really tend to actively use a tilt wheel, so it would be more just to have options as to where to "set it" initially. I may not need that if the inset/fixed-angle on the Bay Star suits me... but of course how do I know that in advance?

Can anyone point me to splashwell photos of a Sea Star system in a 22 with a single main? That seems to be a less "usual" choice so harder to find in the albums without knowing what I am looking for.

Open to any other comments as well.

Thanks,
Sunbeam

 

[srbaum]

Sunbeam,
Here is a photo of my SeaStar ram in the splashwell.

http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_ ... _photo.php

My Rigid Hull Inflatable has the BayStar system. I'll take a photo and send it for comparison. The ram seal failed on this unit when I was off shore...I had to hand steer the 90 Honda to get home. I will be changing it to a SeaStar or a Ultraflex this spring, as I have repaired the ram and the helm more than 4 times.

 

[Wefings]

Tons of problems with Bay Star , go Sea Star.
Don't cheap out on steering ..............
Marc

 

[AK Angler]

Tons of problems with Bay Star , go Sea Star.
Don't cheap out on steering ..............
Marc

Sorry, Marc... gonna hafta provide more info than that.

What exactly does 'tons of problems' mean?
What exactly are the problems? (bad install, maybe? abuse? used beyond rated capacity? random parts failure? just plain wear out?)



I'm not advocating for one over the other. But, I have a BayStar system that's been operating just fine for ... seven (?) years on my Arima, and it has even had the cylinder reconfigured to work with a different motor (repowered in early 2012). It's been 100% maintenance-free since day one, except for the recommended lubing of the tilt-tube rods. Maybe I got a good one??? Or maybe it's just a matter of time before these 'problems' start cropping up???

 

[Wefings]

Yes you are lucky, most of the systems fail by leakage at the cylinder within a year to a year and a half.
The sea star system is much more robust and suited for a saltwater application. We use our boats year around here in Florida and we have seen many cylinders fail at a year.
also the bigger the engine the quicker they will fail.
Marc

 

[Sunbeam]

Tons of problems with Bay Star , go Sea Star.
Don't cheap out on steering

Thanks for the input - I too, would like to hear any specifics, just to understand it better. Just to clarify - and I perhaps should have mentioned this in my first post: This isn't about price at all. It's about which one will work out better all things considered. I mean sure, if two things are identical then spending less money is good. But other than that, I'm more interested in how they fit on my boat, how they look (tidy or not), details of installation, helm comfort, etc. Price, within reason, is secondary.

Sunbeam

 

[AK Angler]

...most of the systems fail by leakage at the cylinder within a year to a year and a half...

If you're implying that 'most BayStar systems fail', I'd like to see some data to back that up. (Again, my single data point does not fit that trend, but I know it's just one single data point.)

If you mean that 'most Baystar failures are leaky cylinders', that's an entirely different thing.

Certainly, cylinders that start leaking in 12-18 months is an issue. But, bad seals can be replaced, no? I wonder if there was just a bad batch of seals? I just can't see how the boating world would 'allow' a product to remain on the market if "most" of the units failed within 18 months? Bad reputations are hard to shake. I'd think that the manufacturer would be forced to either redesign their system, or just quit making their unreliable product altogether, and instead focus on their superior one.

I'm really not trying to be argumentative here. I'm just looking for non-anecdotal information. Because, a couple of quick google searches seem to turn up just as many discussions regarding leaking SeaStar systems as there are leaking BayStar systems.

And - for the record - my Baystar system is also used year 'round in the salt. In fact, I spent the week before Thanksgiving, as well as all of last week plying the waters of Prince William Sound hunting blacktail deer. And, I'd think that boating in the cold Alaskan winters would be a pretty good test of the system's integrity. Still - no problems, even being seven years old.

...also the bigger the engine the quicker they will fail...

Maybe this is the issue...? I know the BayStar is factory rated for up to 150 horsepower outboards. But, maybe that's just too much. (Both of the motors I've had mine on are 90-hp units.)

Of course, it could really be that I've just been lucky... Who knows :?:

 

[thataway]

If I was out fitting a boat and switching to a hydraulic system, I would go with Sea Star. Go over to The Hull Truth, and see where many failures of the Bay Star are documented. I do have a Bay Star on my 18 foot Caracal. It works, and is "adequate". The boat is lighter than A C Dory, although the engine is larger. The C Dory has the Sea Star. The difference in cost is about $250. The hoses on the Sea Star are more robust as is the cylinder and pump at the helm.

 

[Barry Rietz]

Sunbeam, Since you are going to replace the complete steering system have a look at the "Wagner 700 Series" small vessel application. This system allows for adding second "stations" by just splicing into the lines. They also have a small simple "auto-pilot" pump application if required.

 

[AK Angler]

... Go over to The Hull Truth, and see where many failures of the Bay Star are documented. ...

You mean like these threads at The Hull Truth?

Oh, wait. Those threads are all about failures of SeaStar systems... :roll:


Sure, the SeaStar system is supposed to be more 'robust', since it's rated for use on greater horsepower outboards. And, the rubber hoses are probably easier to install than the plastic tubing of the BayStar system (but it's not that bad, and you only have to do it once). And, there may be other advantages to buying the SS over the BS, like the ability to use their kicker cable tie bar. But, I'm just not convinced that - for the typical C-Doty installation - any extra 'robustness' is necessary. Desirable? Maybe. Necessary? I just don't know. And if it were my money, I'd be hard pressed to spend the extra $250 unless there was some actual evidence that the more expensive system actually performed better. Just my opinion. And probably worth what you paid for it.

 

[Captains Cat]

AKA, just out of curiosity, what steering do you have on the 26'?

Charlie

 

[Sunbeam]

Here is a photo of my SeaStar ram in the splashwell.

Here is that photo (thanks!):



I would like to compare this to a Baystar, and I would like understand the difference about what moves and does not move with the two systems (apparently in one the ram moves differently than the other, and I believe for some related reason Les from EQ liked the Bay Star; I want to understand this, so I can make an informed decision for myself). I'm still open to either one at the moment, and also still not sure I completely understand the differences (which is why I started this thread).

Thanks to all for the input so far - and more is welcome.

 

[AK Angler]

Captains Cat - I have the SeaStar system on the 26-footer. It certainly makes sense in that case, as the twin Honda 90's exceed the Baystar's 150-hp max rating.

But, based on my seven years of experience using the BayStar system on my Arima's 90-hp motors, I'm just not convinced that the more expensive SeaStar system is necessary for similarly mid-powered boats - like Sunbeams 80-horse Yammie.

Of course, if somebody wants to spend the extra money, they certainly can. There's definitely something to be said for doing what makes you feel comfortable, even if that added comfort costs a bit more.

And, if there is a documented difference in reliability, that would also be a big concern. But, while there are folks that are quick to point out that there have been failures with the BayStar system, they seem to ignore all the similar SeaStar failures. That - I just don't get.

 

[Hunkydory]

I have to concur with AKA about the Bay Star being more than adequate for the 22 C-dory. With the Bay Star being rated for 150 hp, I couldn't see where my twin Honda 40's would stress it. I had it installed in July of 2005 & now have 900 hours on it & three major Alaska cruises without any leaks or other problems other than having to re tighten fittings at the ram following bleeding air from working on the auto pilot & having to reverse the hoses put on back wards to the ram by the installer. Those incorrect connections to the ram made for some exciting docking the first time I launched on Yellowstone lake following the installation.

Jay

 

[SEA3PO]

Ha ! I love it...now I will admit to hooking up my automatic trim tabs backwards.... made a hard turn and almost tipped the boat over... like an airplane doing a roll... scared the heck out of me.

I purchased all the parts for my steering system separately and I should have gone with the Sea Star Pump and the Bay Star assembly... it worked fine for years..... only reason I dislike the Bay Star helm is that the shaft seal has such a poor design... the newer Bay Star pumps have a better design seal and would not have the same problem... I don't know if I can trust it now even though it is not leaking.

I had my lines made up at a hydraulic hose supply....much less expense.
I also use synthetic steering fluid.... not the $28 a quart stuff..
Amazon sells Sea Star parts at a real discount.

Joel
SEA3PO

 

[Sunbeam]

Ha ! I love it...now I will admit to hooking up my automatic trim tabs backwards.... made a hard turn and almost tipped the boat over... like an airplane doing a roll... scared the heck out of me.

Yikes! Although since nothing bad actually happened, both yours and Jay's stories are funny in retrospect. I didn't hook mine up backwards (although one did explode, which was fun), but I did go back and make the lights on the display "backwards." It drove me nuts that the "opposite" column would light up - especially when the whole system is already "show me what the boat will do and not actually which tab is operating." To my mind that clashed with showing the "actual" column of lights, and I just wanted one system or the other. Changed the lights around and now my brain can work with it

...only reason I dislike the Bay Star helm is that the shaft seal has such a poor design... the newer Bay Star pumps have a better design seal and would not have the same problem...

Am I reading you correctly that if you had it to do over again now, you'd just go with a complete Bay Star system (purchased as a kit), pump and all? (Due to re-design.) Do you by chance understand what I have heard about the Bay Star being designed in such a way that it's more compact/tidier in the splashwell? (Something about which part of the ram or etc. moves in comparison to the other.)

From what I can tell so far, both "Stars" are going to be reasonably reliable, with possible problems, so I'm trying to figure out the "little details" that might make me prefer one over the other. I feel like there is some difference in the way the rams work or fit in the splashwell (possible point to Bay Star, but I'm not sure); some difference in fitting the lines (possible point to Bay Star but I am not clear on this); and tilt only available on Sea Star (point to Sea Star if I would actually want it - again not sure!).

Would be nice to see both installed on a 22 before choosing, but OTOH I might want to get this job done before summer season.

The one "dread" I have (besides choosing a system) is getting that gigantic steering cable out.... seems it might be a :amgry type of job!

 

[Sea Wolf]

Sunbeam-

Since you're agonizing over this decision so much, and so much seems to ride on Les's past stated preference for the BayStar system that is not presently clear, I suggest you write him a PM and ask that he comment on this thread.

As far as the difficulty in getting the Teleflex cable out of your boat, Mike (TyBoo) will, (IFIRC), tell you it's no problem: Simply cut it into small removable sections with a pneumatic or electric cut-off tool!

Good Luck!

Joe. :teeth :thup

 

[Sunbeam]

Since you're agonizing over this decision so much...

You know, I almost didn't start this thread because I wondered if it might give some people the wrong impression. I'll try to explain better. From my perspective, I'm not agonizing but rather am researching. I know I tend toward one end of the spectrum (details/information), and I am aware that it is bothersome to some people. The thing is, when I am going to choose, purchase, install, and live with a "system" -- especially one used as often as a steering wheel -- I like to research it before I do so. Details matter to me, and I find them interesting, so I check into them. If there is something I don't understand about it, rather than ignoring it or finding it a bother, I see it an opportunity to learn, and I enjoy coming to an understanding of it. That said, if other people prefer to do it another way, more power to them - to each their own.

I don't like to "bug" people unnecessarily, and I am fairly sure that long posts can put some people off. I do read the archives first, so as not to waste anyone's time; but then if I don't find what I'm looking for -- or if I feel it may be good to get more-current information -- I ask. Presumably, too, if I'm wondering something and can't find it, so may another person in future.

It's also January. Maybe it's because I come from the north, but to me that always feels like a time to sit back, plan for the future, and do my researching/scheming/etc. (so that I don't end up doing it in the lovely summer months). I do realize that other folks prefer to "just pick one," and maybe they are bothered by what feels to them like "agonizing." If it is troublesome, I could limit my posts here - I have no desire to irritate the group as a whole, nor to give them the impression that I am sitting around agonizing (which sounds negative to me).

Anyway, I'll give Teleflex a call and see what they have to say.

As far as the difficulty in getting the Teleflex cable out of your boat, Mike (TyBoo) will, (IFIRC), tell you it's no problem: Simply cut it into small removable sections with a pneumatic or electric cut-off tool!

I considered that, but envisioned either scads of flying "metal dust" inside the boat or my accidentally cutting a hole in the boat due to the tight quarters. I had also heard that it was the hardest part of changing to hydraulic steering. Good to know it is actually simple.

 

[Captains Cat]

If you're worried about "metal dust", use a small (actually as large as will fit) bolt cutter. No dust. Just make sure you're around the right thing before you cut... :wink:

charlie

 

[Sunbeam]

If you're worried about "metal dust"...

You're right in that I despise metal or fiberglass dust flying around inside the boat - ugh! I prefer take the time to try to prevent it first vs. the time to clean it up later (of course some clean up is inevitable but I at least like to reduce it).

...use a small (actually as large as will fit) bolt cutter. No dust.

Good idea, thanks! I will check into it. As of yet, I have not cut the cable loose from its supports, so I am not sure whether it will drop down and give me more working room, or basically stay "glued" to the hull/cabinetry (thereby making for very cramped quarters). So far I'm just in the researching stage and my cable steering is still working fine so I have time to figure things out. I appreciate your input.