Additional questions on upgrades

[pat.jack]

Hi Folks,

Thanks again for the input to date on adding shore power to my boat. I plan to order materials soon, so they are on hand when my boat comes out of storage in a few weeks. I have a few additional questions:
I was thinking of adding pressurized water-have many of you done this? We have the standard foot pump at this point.

We were thinking of adding a refrigerator-they are a bit pricey-but seem like they would be very nice to have on board. At minimum, I'd like to make provision for a refrigerator and add the wiring for it. If any of you have recently installed refrigerators, what are your recommendations on reliable brands? (I'll look them up to check ac and dc current demands).

Our boat has the basic alcohol stove-and the cutting board on the stove is pretty badly 'burnt' on the edges-just doesn't look very good. I am thinking of adding the Wallis Stove/heater. I like the idea of having a good stove that doubles as a cabin heater. Have you found this to be a worthwhile investment on your boats-considering the cost of the Wallis stove?

Finally, it would be nice to have hot water on the boat, but I'm thinking that would not be practical to add. Considering the size of a water heater I'm not sure it would be worth considering. Have any of you added hot water on your 22' boats?

I'm sure I'll have other questions, so thanks for your patience.
Jack

 

[thataway]

For starters consider the water capacity of the boat. We put a small pump on our first 22, and stay with the foot pump on the second. The foot pump tends to conserve water, but makes the tank slower to drain for storage. There are small in line pumps which use a single contact momentary switch which work well--don't go to a 3.5 gallon / min 35 PSI pump! Your water will disappear very quickly.

Yes, put in the DC and AC wiring for a refer if you want. Most of them are small that will fit in the C Dory 22. We prefer to use a chest type of freezer/ refer combination--we have the Waeco (Dometic), and find it to be an excellent brand. We had Norcold's since they first came out in the 70's.
We did have both the chest type and a built in on the 25--and the amount of space in the built in is pretty small. Storage is somewhat limited on the 22 anyway. With more refrigeration you need bigger house batteries, and a bigger battery charger. What ever brand you buy, get a Danfoss compressor. They are very reliable.

As for brands, I would put Nova Kool at the top of the list, then,Engle, Isotherm, Dometic, and finally Norcold. Of course finding one which will fit under the helm seat or the forward dinette seat is the trick--plus getting down on your knees to use it--we just find the chest easier to use...

We prefer the chest freezer and then an ice chest, both in the cockpit. In the Tom Cat, we built in the freezer on a sliding drawer under the port forward seat.

Water heater: If you put in a half or one gallon, instant heater that might be a possibility. We tried that on the 25, but had problems with the specific heater we choose. Again--KISS is the principle of the C Dory 22, and putting a lot of 110 volt gadgets may take away from the simplicity!

Stoves: I happen to be in love with the Wallas. Our latest 22 did not come with a stove, and we suffered with various propane portable stoves this last year. I purchased Sunbeam's used (un-used?) Wallas, which need some cosmetics, but appears to be in good condition. As you may gather I am against portable propane in the cabin in the C Dory. You can make a new cutting board for the alcohol stove, but I would go with the Wallas. However I have had great luck with 3--no failures and a lot of cruising. Some folks have not been so lucky...

 

[Sunbeam]

For starters consider the water capacity of the boat. We put a small pump on our first 22, and stay with the foot pump on the second. The foot pump tends to conserve water, but makes the tank slower to drain for storage.

I've always used foot pumps on boats, and I like them. They do tend to make it easier to conserve water.

My boat came with a washdown pump mounted and connected to the fresh water tank (although it has the "manual" foot pump for the galley sink). The washdown pump can be used to empty the tank quickly. I think it's going to be a nice set-up, as when I get to the end of a cruise and have water left in the tank, I can use the washdown pump to either wash the salt off of things (when in salt water), or just to empty the tank.

Knowing how each trip/usage/supply varies, and that you would like pressure water, I wonder if you could use a Y-valve somehow to make it so that you had the foot pump to use when in conservation mode, but could then engage the electrical pump on cruises or days when you knew you had water/supply to spare?

Sunbeam

 

[thataway]

I believe that the current Whale in line water pumps ($45 Defender) will allow flow thru (the older ones did--and the new ones seem the same except for color of plastic.). The valves on the foot pump also allow for flow thru of the electric pump. --or you could just replace the foot pump with the whale in line pump, and keep the foot for when that electric fails!

 

[C-Nile]

I would like to add to what Dr. Bob said about the Wallas. We have had one for two seasons. It heats the cabin and as a stove, it brings water to a boil very quickly. It's no toy, believe me. The nice thing is that it vents exhaust to the outside and not into the cabin. It also burns diesel very cleanly and efficiently, and according to expert sources, is much safer then propane and butane. Get one and you won't regret it.

With respect to a refrigerator, my wife and I use one of those Coleman 5-day ice chests. It works great, and a block of ice will last several days.

We take pride in being off the grid, and really don't need outside power. However, we occassionaly use a temporary shore power set up with GFI, good quality plug and cords, and breakers as described by fellow C-Brats. It is useful for a portable electric heater (instead of using our Wallas,) but that's about all we need power for.

Rich

 

[Sunbeam]

...according to expert sources, [the Wallas] is much safer then propane and butane. Get one and you won't regret it.

I don't disagree with anything positive you said about the Wallas and/or vented diesel heat in general. And I agree that propane can be dangerous. But I still feel moved to respond to what you said, because propane can also be used safely, when one sets up a propane system properly and uses it accordingly. Is it 100% safe? No, but then neither is gasoline, and we use gasoline freely on our boats. But it's a given that we set it up properly and use it respectfully. The same is required of propane, if one chooses to use it.

I'm not arguing against a Wallas or diesel heating or cooking in general, as I think they can be a great choice, especially on a C-Dory :thup

Sunbeam

 

[C-Nile]

...according to expert sources, [the Wallas] is much safer then propane and butane. Get one and you won't regret it.

I don't disagree with anything positive you said about the Wallas and/or vented diesel heat in general. And I agree that propane can be dangerous. But I still feel moved to respond to what you said, because propane can also be used safely, when one sets up a propane system properly and uses it accordingly. Is it 100% safe? No, but then neither is gasoline, and we use gasoline freely on our boats. But it's a given that we set it up properly and use it respectfully. The same is required of propane, if one chooses to use it.

I'm not arguing against a Wallas or diesel heating or cooking in general, as I think they can be a great choice, especially on a C-Dory :thup

Sunbeam

Sunbeam,
Does your propane stove vent to the inside or outside? Now this is my opinion, but I feel nervous about having propane on board and venting propane exhaust into my living space. Others may feel differently, and that's O.K.; it's personal preference. If you don't have a leaky connection that could cause propane to leak into the cabin, and if you don't have incomplete combustion that would otherwise produce significant CO, and if you have a window cracked open for ventillation, and if you employ a good smoke detector -- yes, propane can be safely used. When you compare the two, it is undeniable that diesel is safer then propane. However, there is a huge difference in cost. A wallas can run close to $3,000, and by anyone's standards, it is costly.

Rich

 

[Sunbeam]

Does your propane stove vent to the inside or outside?

I don't have a propane stove at the moment, but when I did it vented inside. But, that was simply a cooking stove, not a heater.

For heating, I would generally prefer a stove to be vented overboard, whether it be fueled by propane, diesel or solid fuel. But that's less a function of the specific fuel than of the fact that you are burning a lot of it (generally) when heating. I've had both diesel and solid fuel heaters, and they both vented through a chimney. I wouldn't have minded a propane heater at all, but for the kind of boating I was doing it just wasn't practical to store enough BTU's that way. Now on a C-Dory it might, so I'm reconsidering it for heating.

Now this is my opinion, but I feel nervous about having propane on board and venting propane exhaust into my living space.

Many people prefer not to have propane aboard, and that's cool. I have no vested interest in anyone having propane aboard. However, most "installed" propane heaters do vent overboard, as does the Wallas (Cozy Cabin, P9000, etc.). I think we have two different factors going here: Propane vs. diesel, and vented vs. unvented. For any "heavy duty" heating I would want the heater to vent overboard, no matter the fuel (not counting electricity).

I would think one would want a CO detector when burning any fuel aboard (?)

Sunbeam

 

[C-Nile]

Sunbeam -- you are right about venting outside and CO detectors are similar in safety to both. Once those conditions are addressed one issue is left, as I know you are aware: a gas leak. That is the remaining issue with propane that makes it less safe. Every once in awhile, boats explode due to propane leaks in enclosed spaces, which is why more care needs to be exercised to make it as safe as possible for this fuel. That's why I prefer diesel in enclosed spaces.

Rich

 

[Sunbeam]

Once those conditions are addressed one issue is left, as I know you are aware: a gas leak. That is the remaining issue with propane that makes it less safe.

That is true, and a valid concern. That said, a proper setup will absolutely minimize the possibility and is worlds apart from having a portable butane stove stored in the galley. There will be only one connection outside the propane locker, right at the appliance. And there will only be gas in that line while you are using the appliance. When you are not using it, the solenoid (which is in the vapor-tight, vented gas locker) will shut off the gas at the source, and you burn it out of the lines by shutting off the appliance after the flame burns out. So then there is only fuel in the vapor-tight, vented locker, outside the living space. There is also a detector in the living space and/or bilge. Another plus is that our boats don't have deep bilges for the propane to sink and "hide" in, which is one reason it can be more dangerous on boats than other installations (it sinks, goes unnoticed, and then you have trouble). But, even with all that, there is still a risk, you are correct. It's a fuel, and it can ignite. If a nagging worry about it is going to take away from the pleasure of boating, it's totally not worth it.

It's funny, but I guess because I did use propane on a boat for years (carefully and respectfully), it doesn't bother me; but where I get nervous is in having gasoline on the boat! I see a barbecue in the cockpit and think about fumes from the tank vents. I'm not too nervous about gasoline to enjoy my boat (I actually grew up on gas-powered boats but then got used to diesel propulsion), but just, I mean, I get how one particular fuel can be the one that gets to you and so you choose not to use it. Worrying (or getting hurt) is no fun. And there is a great alternative in the Wallas.

Sunbeam

 

[C-Nile]

Once those conditions are addressed one issue is left, as I know you are aware: a gas leak. That is the remaining issue with propane that makes it less safe.

That is true, and a valid concern. That said, a proper setup will absolutely minimize the possibility and is worlds apart from having a portable butane stove stored in the galley. There will be only one connection outside the propane locker, right at the appliance. And there will only be gas in that line while you are using the appliance. When you are not using it, the solenoid (which is in the vapor-tight, vented gas locker) will shut off the gas at the source, and you burn it out of the lines by shutting off the appliance after the flame burns out. So then there is only fuel in the vapor-tight, vented locker, outside the living space. There is also a detector in the living space and/or bilge. Another plus is that our boats don't have deep bilges for the propane to sink and "hide" in, which is one reason it can be more dangerous on boats than other installations (it sinks, goes unnoticed, and then you have trouble). But, even with all that, there is still a risk, you are correct. It's a fuel, and it can ignite. If a nagging worry about it is going to take away from the pleasure of boating, it's totally not worth it.

It's funny, but I guess because I did use propane on a boat for years (carefully and respectfully), it doesn't bother me; but where I get nervous is in having gasoline on the boat! I see a barbecue in the cockpit and think about fumes from the tank vents. I'm not too nervous about gasoline to enjoy my boat (I actually grew up on gas-powered boats but then got used to diesel propulsion), but just, I mean, I get how one particular fuel can be the one that gets to you and so you choose not to use it. Worrying (or getting hurt) is no fun. And there is a great alternative in the Wallas.

Sunbeam

I agree with you completely, Sunbeam. The fact that you have been a boater for many years and have done so safely is a testament to your caution. Incidentally, I'm nervous about gasoline, too. That's why I am relieved that the gas vents are located outside of the cockpit enclosure on the Marinaut.

One last comment: we don't want to be fearful to the point of not enjoying our boating experience. However, a little fear is a good thing, because fear can instill respect for what we are doing. When we become complacent, no matter how experienced we are, and lose respect for what we are doing, that's when accidents happen. I had a neighbor year's ago, who I greatly respected, who was a steel worker. One day he gestured toward his arms and legs to show me they were intact. He then went on to say that he knew many people who lost respect for what they were doing, they became complacent, and as a result, some lost their arms, legs and even their lives. This always had a deep impression on me, and it is why I value what you and many more experienced in boating than I am have to say about safety issues.

Thanks,

Rich

 

[Sunbeam]

Rich,

It's nice that we can have this conversation, and pleasantly discuss various objective, and also "subjective" (for lack of a better word at the moment, because I know there is one that just isn't coming to mind) aspects of boating and fuels. Oftentimes it seems all too easy to get cross when there is not an identical point of view. I enjoy reading your contributions to various threads :thup

Sunbeam

 

[starcrafttom]

My two cents on the wallas. Don't. I had one on the 22 and loved it the first year, because that was the only year it worked. After that it cost me money and head aches even time I went out. Sold it with the boat and the new owner had not had any problems with it. Most likely because I spent over $800 on it right before the sell .

But to be honest about its performance even on the rear occasions it did work. You stated you liked the idea of a good cook top that also heated the cabin. Well I never thought it was that great of a cook top and now that I have a alcohol stove on the 27 I can say that in comparison the wallas sucked as a stove top. It's much easier and faster to cook on the alcohol stove then it ever was on the wallas.

We use a espar diesel heater to heat the cabin and find this to be a far better heater then the wallas ever was or could be. Just a lot more air flow for one. thermostat control for another and far faster to light and heat. It also seems to keep the cabin dryer. My espar is set up so that the cold air for the combustion side is drawn from inside the cabin. This pulls the moist air from the cabin and burns it before venting over board.

I would even go with a wallas diesel heater and a alcohol stove. Now many people have had nothing but good luck with the wallas but many others have not. All I know is that if I ever buy another one me and it are sleeping out side. Wife has been left in a cold cabin too many times to let it every happen again.

As for propane. If its set up right and cautions is taken, as it should be with any of these system, then I find it a very acceptable fuel source for a cook top in a boat. opinions differ with mileage and use. :wink:

 

[bridma]

The couple I sold my sailboat too took out the espar diesel heater, nothing wrong with it. They told me that to keep warm, they like a cuddle and take a hot water bottle to bed at night. They do have a portable electric heater that they can plug into shore power when along side.
The alcohol two ring stove and oven, (I reckon it came off Noah's Ark) was a bitch to light. I ignored it and used a butane single burner, as do the new owners.

On my C-Dory the Wallas works great. Mind you, it is reassuring having a friend who is a Wallas dealer and maintenance guy living next door to me.

Seems to me that we all use lots of variations, and none of them are wrong. Different horses for different courses.

Martin.

 

[C-Nile]

Tom,
As a heater, the Wallas will drive us out of the cabin it produces so much heat. As a stove, it is so hot that we have to be careful to not use more then moderate heat. It produces 6700 BTUs of heat! A good alcohol stove could edge out the Wallas, because from what I have read, these can produce 7,000 BTUs. The difference is trivial. Have you ever considered that your Wallas' defect resulted in atypical performance from the onset of its use? I can't speak for others, but for me, I think the Wallas performs excellently. Not only that, it is stingy on fuel, squeezing every last BTU out of every drop of diesel. And this will be our third season of use with no problems experienced thus far.

Rich

 

[B~C]

Concerning the original post, is the wallas a worthwhile purchase. I would say it depends on how you use your boat. For us it isn't. We use our boat for fishing and the occasional long weekend adventure and generally are hooked up to shore power for cooking and heat.
I just installed a vented propane furnace for the occasional heat needed while not hooked to shore power. A proper, safe, propane furnace gives us instant heat with no worry about sour fuel, fouled glow plugs and other problems that arise from lack of use. 10 bjillion rvs using propane can't be wrong

If a person plans on long voyages away from shore power, diesel power would be the way to go as you can get a lot better mileage out of a tank of diesel.

 

[C-Nile]

2012 Propane and Butane Explosions (incomplete list)

BOAT
- Man injured in Sequim boat explosion dies, Feb 13 2012
- 1 injured in butane stove explosion aboard charter fishing boat in Portland, Aug. 04, 2012 (Butane)

RV/MOBILE HOME
- 4 Badly Burned in Propane Explosion at KOA, May 29, 2012
- Unattended Propane Stove Leads to Fire in Geronimo Mobile Home, January 3rd, 2012
- Woman injured in Upper Bern Township propane explosion ,8/25/2012
- Rescuers Recount Propane Explosion in Campground, May 1, 2012

It may be rare, but propane and butane explosions do happen. Looks like diesel or alcohol are safer to me. O.K. -- many of you who are experienced and aware of the dangers of propane take precautions to mitigate the risk. But what if one of the components of your propane system is defective? I went out to the USCG website, and saw a recall notice for over 250 propane pigtail hoses. What if you purchased this part and installed it in your boat or RV? Are you aware of the recall? There are some things you can't control.

rich

 

[B~C]

I would say many more lives have been ruined by alcohol than propane

 

[pat.jack]

Hi Folks,

Thank you again for all the feedback on options to consider for AC power. I had not heard of the "chest type of freezer/ refer combination--we have the Waeco (Dometic)" before, I'll look at this along with other options.

Sounds like the Wallas stove is a 'hot topic"--pun intended I suppose. Like many things, it sounds like many of you really like it, and some have had lots of trouble. In any event, it was good to hear your thoughts, since we have no personal experience, and some of these items represent a pretty significant $ investment.

Regards,
Jack

 

[thataway]

In looking over the thread--there are comments about cooking on the two burner Wallas. Actually it is more like a one burner Wallas, with one hot and one mild spot...You do have to learn to to the "Cooking" shuffle--and put the pot on where you want HOT, the HOT part--and the other will continue to boil. Marie has cooked on all manor of appliances (loves gas at home and in the RV)--including all sorts of open fires and other types of stoves from Kerosene to pressure alcohol etc. She manages well on the Wallas, but there is a learning curve.

Consider that the C Dory is a very small boat for what it does and has. If you want all of the luxuries--then it comes at a price--and part of that price might be a 35 plus foot boat....where you could have hydronic diesel heat, propane cooking stove top, generator with hot water heater (or from the hydronic unit) and microwave etc.

But for 22 feet.....hard to beat! Simplicity