A newbie requesting info on towing

L

larhayden

New member
Greetings. We want to buy a CD 25 or TomCat -- or perhaps a 22. We decided to follow a model of having a trailerable boat - and C Dory is our first choice. We live near Charleston SC, and want to buy a truck so when the right CD is available, we can tow it. We would like to have a slide in camper on the truck while traveling. SOOOO--the folks here in the low country of South Carolina say that we need an F250 or 2500 to negotiate the passes cross country -- cause we want to travel to the west coast (and back and alll around) and exlpore. Can I live with a Tundra - which is a beffed up F150? or would you get an F250 or Chevy 2500??

Background: We started boating in 2006 on a 25 ft cuddy . Took power squadron classes on the chesapeake bay. So--really, we are failrly new to boating. Bought a 40ft motor yacht in 2009 and lived on it at the Gangplank Marina in Washinton DC for 2.5 years. Left on America's Great Loop on June 2011 and finished June 2012. Along the way, we met C-Dory's and decided that will be a more a long range sustainable cruising strategy to follow. /larry hayden/
 
My guess is that with a truck camper *and* a C-Dory in tow, you would need a pretty substantial truck. Especially if it were a 25 or a Tomcat. For one of the latter plus a truck camper I would think a 3/4 ton might be a bit light.

But the best way is to run the actual numbers on any truck you are considering. And don't go solely on the tow rating, but also check the GCWR (gross combined weight rating) and the RAWR (rear-axle weight rating). On some vehicles (my 3/4-ton van for example), I could never actually tow the full tow rating because I would bump up against the GCWR and the RAWR before I would get to the tow rating.

Here is an example to illustrate what I'm saying:
My tow vehicle (3/4 ton van) tow rating --- 7,500#
My tow vehicle's GCWR --------------- 13,000#
Weight of my tow vehicle loaded for travel but without boat
---------------------------------7,450#
GCWR minus weight of loaded vehicle without boat
---------------------------------5,550#
Amount of "official tow rating" that is unavailable to me once I actually do the math
--------------------------------- 2,000#

(I also only have about 1,000# to spare on the RAWR, so that would also not allow me to tow the "official" 7,500# in the real world, unless I really emptied out the van.)

Each boat is different, but ballpark figures (which others may be more specific on):

22 on trailer:
low = 4,000#
high = 5,000# or a bit more

25 on trailer:
low = 6900#
high = 8500#

Tomcat....?

Happy shopping :)

Sunbeam
Low,
 
Larry, if you want to have a camper and tow, I recommend a F350 or equivalent. Dually, for a bit more stability. We have a F250 with airbags, but it doesn't feel like enough suspension when the camper is on. The one tons usually have beefier transmissions, too.

We have a diesel, and I love it, but I might go gas if I ever bought another tow vehicle. With the current price of diesel, I doubt that you could never recoup the additional cost (new) of the diesel engine. BTW, we have started year 14 with the old Ford. A few maintenance issues along the way, but nothing any other truck would experience.
 
I have to third etc--the suggestion that with a camper you may want to look at a one ton.

Don't forget that most of us "live on the road" in the boat. We lived in the 22 for 6 weeks last summer. Only part of that time was on the water.

If you end up with a Tom Cat, that is considerably more to tow than the 25. I would definitely recommend a diesel. Consider than an older diesel is going to be cheaper than newer gas. If you are doing many mountain grades then definitely the diesel. Charlie has the Ford Excursion 7.3 we owned, and it probably has over 175,000 miles on it--still going strong. You can never have too much truck!
 
I used to have a dually and a 11.5 foot Eagle Cap camper and towed my CD 22 all at the same time. Even with the 7.3 diesel, it was quite the load. However, I think with the dually there was room for towing the 25 using the right hitch.

BTW, a 1/2 ton truck just won't do what you are asking. The tundra has a pretty high tow rating, but not much of a payload rating - 1400 pounds is all. I not sure this justifies calling it a "beefed up f-150", as the f-150 will have about the same tow rating and a max payload rating of around 2300 pounds. Remember, those ratings are the max and include you, your passengers, and the tongue weight. This leaves you with about nothing left in either truck.......You could have a picture of a camper.....LOL.....
 
Bigger really is better in truckdom. The biggest you can afford up to a dually. Even with the 22, the bigger the truck the better safety margin with braking or acceleration and cross wind handling. My 2500 dodge diesel is perfect mate to the 22. Probably fine with a 25, but the tomcat is another animal...excuse the pun and I'd probably get a dually to tow one. Diesel will get you up over the mountains with far better mileage than gas. My MPG with diesel makes up for the difference in gas prices. AND I can torque my way up over the mountains and down the freeways in a head wind to boot.
 
Another big fan of a diesel pickup for a boat tow rig for durability. The 5.9 cummins motor is a industrial diesel engine, proven in a large percentage of agricultural, marine and industrial applications long before it was ever placed in the dodge truck chassis. Its a million mile engine when placed in a pickup truck. Mine has a lot more miles then most people would be comfortable with, and I wouldn't hesitate to drive it anywhere in the world.. it would get me there I'm sure
 
Larry:

I have a CD Tom Cat 25.5 and tow it with a Ford F350, (1 ton, V10 gasoline version, 4WD) without any problem, but you definitely know the boat is back there. My previous truck was a 3/4 ton, and I moved up because I felt 3/4 ton was too light.

Have also had a camper on this 1 ton truck of sizes varying from 10 - 12 feet. With that experience, I would not tow the Tom Cat behind my F350 with anything but a 8 foot camper on it.

Reason for this is that if the camper extends past the truck bed, you will need an extension on the truck for the trailer hitch, which effectively increases the tongue weight, and it quite noticeable even with a boat as light as a Tom Cat.

We live in Washington State, so mountain passes are a relatively common event. The F350 handles the uphill parts just fine (at 7 - 8 MPG).

On long down hill stretches, you have to be careful with how you handle braking. If the trailer has surge brakes, it is best to let the truck 'pull' from time to time to prevent the surge brakes from overheating, as they otherwise would be on all the way down the hill.

You might also want to think about using the boat as your camper...simplifies things and lightens the load somewhat.

KW
El Gato Thomas
CD Tom Cat 25.5
 
I have a 27 c-dory but dont know the weight. I expect it to be heavier then 25 and maybe as much as a tomcat. I also have a large camper. The truck, f350 with a v-10, will handle both just fine but my mileage is down to 8-9 mpg. The ford is a 4x4 non dually.
 
If you end up with a Tom Cat, that is considerably more to tow than the 25. I would definitely recommend a diesel. Consider than an older diesel is going to be cheaper than newer gas. If you are doing many mountain grades then definitely the diesel. Charlie has the Ford Excursion 7.3 we owned, and it probably has over 175,000 miles on it--still going strong. You can never have too much truck!

I do indeed have the Excursion and love it. 177k and going strong! Tows the TC255 great! 22mpg (not towing) about 15/16 while pulling the 11k# Cat. Haven't slept in the back yet b/c on long trips it has 5 crates in the back with :dog :cat :cat :cat :cat in them... :roll: No room for us human folks!

Dr. Bob is right too, you can never have too much truck (or too many garages! :thup )

Charlie
 
I have a 2011 f-350 dually diesel with a 1191 lance camper .They are a heavy camper,but with this truck ,no problem towing. Truck campers come in alot of different weights,some for short bed trucks,long bed trucks ect. I would like a 1 ton for a camper and big boat. If you went with a light weight camper and a 3/4 ton truck,you would have to check gvw ,tounge weight,hauling load ect. I would opt for 1 ton if you can.You want to be comfortable and safe when towing
 
We have a new-to-us 2006 Silverado 3500 Duramax Allison. It pulls the CD 25 considerably better than the Titan did, which is one beefy half ton pickup. We really needed it because of the new fifth wheel, but added capacity for the CD 25 was a big plus too. Got it at Dave Smith Motors in Kellogg, Idaho - and it may be worth a trip to Kellogg almost no matter where you are coming. Google "Dave Smith Motors"- about half the town of Kellogg is DSM! Disclaimer, I have no financial interest in DSM, just a very satisfied customer.

My thoughts:

CD 22 - half ton is going to be completely adequare, Tundra, Titan, etc.

CD 25 (no camper) - can be done with a beefy half ton, lots of Tundras and Titans and 150/1500s pulling CD 25s, a 250/2500 is definitely better.

Tomcat or CD 25 - no camper, 250/2500 is fine, you are going to want a 350 or 3500 if you want to put a camper on while towing either of these boats. Tomcat is considerably more of a load than a CD 25.

For either 250/2500 or 350/3500, agree with Dr. Bob that diesel is the way to go. I have just been super pleased with the Silverado. (And no jokes, boys, about it "looking like it got magnetized and crashed through a Pep Boys window" !)
 
We tow our 25 with a GMC 2500HD with the Duramax diesel. It is a great match-up with our CD-25. Our boat with less than 1/4 tank of fuel, full water, empty black tank, King galvanized dual axle trailer, and carrying much of our cruising gear in the covered truck bed, weighs in at 8700 pounds (last time we weighed it at a truck scale). We looked into a truck camper, but discovered that we would be over the rear axle weight rating. Realistically, a dually is recommended with anything but the "lite series" truck campers... you need that extra weight capacity that the dually provides.

Don't go by any salesperson's comment of "That truck will tow anything on this lot." We heard that when shopping for a 5th wheel RV, and made our choice based on the pin weight (essentially weight in the bed of the truck).

There is a LOT of weight difference between the 22 (around 5,000 pounds), the 25 (7,000 to 8,700 pounds depending on the trailer and accessories), and the TomCat (10,000 pounds). Our truck is rated to tow 15,500 pounds, but would be over the rear axle weight rating with a 3,000 pound truck camper and towing our CD-25.

I was not a "pick-up guy" before buying the CD-25. I did my research, and we bought the truck that was rated the best for power, towing capacity, ride, quiet, and mileage (at the time). I was sure this was a "handle anything" truck, but soon discovered the limitations when we considered adding a truck camper shortly after getting the boat. Like others, we use the boat as an RV while towing, understanding the limitations of the boat compared to a real land RV (mostly water system and dumping issues while in RV parks).

Good luck with the search and your decisions.

Best wishes,
Jim B.
 
For either 250/2500 or 350/3500, agree with Dr. Bob that diesel is the way to go. I have just been super pleased with the Silverado. (And no jokes, boys, about it "looking like it got magnetized and crashed through a Pep Boys window" !)

OK, how about "AUTO ZONE" No Pep Boys around these parts! :mrgreen:

How many days now counselor?

Charlie :lol:
 
Having towed a new 22' Angler from Portland, OR, to Asheville, NC, a few weeks ago I have a few thoughts on the towing issue. My setup was a new Angler on a single axel trailer with surge brakes towed by a '08 Ford F-150 crew cab, 5.4L gas engine, auto trans, 4x4, with a fiberglass camper shell. The towing was a breeze. Gas mileage varied from 12.2 mpg to 14.7 mpg with most tanks falling between 13 and 14 mpg. Those mpg figures aren't estimates. I do the math with every tank I put in my vehicles.

With that said keep in mind that the boat was empty. Less than 5 gallons of gas, no anchor, coolers, ice, food, fishing gear, etc. The truck was nearly empty too, just me, a small suitcase, and a few hand tools. I'm sure once I get all my gear on the boat those mileage figures will drop. But even loaded, I think my truck will handle it just fine. I pull a much heavier travel trailer just fine although the mileage drops to 7 to 9 mpg. Also, I keep my speed down when towing a heavy trailer, that makes a difference too. Coming back the cruise was set at 62 mph just about the whole way even though the posted speed limits were higher. And, there is the wind. Coming back across Wyoming and Nebraska I think I hit the only two days in 2012 that the wind didn't blow there. That, along with the elevation dropping steadily allowed me to get my best mileage of the trip from the middle of Wyoming all the way across Nebraska. Going out with strong head winds through that area, the cruise set at 75, I got the same gas mileage as coming back with no winds, a lower speed, towing the boat.

If the 22 foot boat is going to be heavily loaded, or if I was going to be towing the 25 or larger boat I would seriously consider going with an F-250 or heavier truck. As mentioned previously, check the weights. I tend to travel light but a lot of people tend to load up heavily when travelling. If a truck camper is added to the mix some serious consideration should be given to moving up the scale even more.

Also keep in mind when doing the math on towing capacities that the weight of the truck alone can vary quite a bit. My F-150 crew cab with fiberglass camper shell (just a shell, not a truck camper) and 4x4 drive train probably weighs a couple of thousand pounds more than a standard cab, 2 wheel drive F-150 without cover. Every pound of added weight on the truck reduces the weight available for towed boats. I need the back seat area for hauling around two Newfoundlands. The rear seat is removed but they still fill it up. If it weren't for them I'd have a standard cab truck and get better mileage due to the lower weight and have that additional weight savings available for towing.

As far as the diesel vs gasoline engine thing, that sort of depends on how many miles you're going to put on the truck. Torque is torque, regardless of the fuel used in the engine. A gas engine with 300 ft/lbs of torque will pull you over the same mountain passes that a diesel with 300 ft/lbs of torque will. The difference is that the diesel is more efficient and will use less fuel to do it. If you drive enough miles with the diesel engine you'll actually save money with the diesel engine even though it costs more per gallon. The problem with diesels is that they cost more up front. In my case, when I bought my truck, it would have cost me an additional ten grand to go with the F-250 diesel. I can buy a lot of gas with ten thousand dollars but after I've spent that ten thousand on gas I'm starting to lose money by not going diesel. I've seen some articles on the net that discuss the issues of gas vs diesel and give some guidelines to use in deciding which is better for you personally.

Do give some thought to engine size too whether going gas or diesel. A small V6 engine might do well towing in flat country but the larger V8 or diesel might do better if towing heavily loaded or in mountain areas. But seriously, do the math on the whole weight rating thing regardless of which way you go.
 
mgarr682: Congrats on your new C-Dory! :thup I did a similar trip with my new-to me 2002, only in reverse (SE cross country to NW). There were a couple of times I thought "Why am I doing this!?" but then I figured, well, if I have a trailerable boat but don't want to trailer it, what's the point? So off I went :D

I also have the 5.4 gas engine in my E-250 (van). For what I do (camper van + C-Dory 22) I like it. Gets the (seemingly ubiquitous) 12 mpg when towing, and about 16 on non-towing highway trips. No way would I tow a 25 with it (the numbers wouldn't support that in any case), but it does nicely for the 22. I'm definitely not charging up the mountain passes, but it's adequate.

I had a chance to tow a ~9,000# camper trailer cross-country this summer with an F-350/dually/V-10 and that was really a gorgeous tow vehicle. Just cruised along without any fuss, mountains or no. Quiet and smooth. Didn't pass the gas pumps quite as easily as my van, but then it's more capable too.

mgarr682":3bnfn732 said:
But seriously, do the math on the whole weight rating thing regardless of which way you go.
Click to expand...

Hear, hear. All too often dealers (!), or others will tell you stuff that the numbers don't end up supporting; so while input is very useful (and many times is accurate/experienced), I still advocate doing your own math for any particular vehicle/tow combo.

Sunbeam
 
Sunbeam":13sfl7t8 said:
mgarr682: Congrats on your new C-Dory! :thup I did a similar trip with my new-to me 2002, only in reverse (SE cross country to NW). There were a couple of times I thought "Why am I doing this!?" but then I figured, well, if I have a trailerable boat but don't want to trailer it, what's the point? So off I went :D
Click to expand...

It was a simple matter of economics for me. I priced a new boat back this way and in Portland. With the cost difference and what it cost me to drive out west and back I saved money. Of course, being retired, time wasn't an issue. If I had to take off from work it might have been a different matter. And, any excuse to drive across the country is an added perk.
 
Sooner or later in these discussions, a few admonitions usually come up:

Don't use so light a vehicle to tow that you're constantly at the limits when towing, because-

1. You'll have to replace the transmission (if automatic) at around 65k miles or so, just from overheating, especially if used a lot in the summer, on mountain grades, in heavy freeway stop and go traffic, etc..

2. Your cooling system functioning is critical under the same usage, and failure is common, often with disastrous results to the engine and/or transmission.

3. Even more important that towing power is stopping power. That overburdened truck/tow vehicle may just get you by when towing, but when doing emergency stops will be woefully inadequate, resulting in big damage, often to both your tow vehicle and boat as well! Having an accident with an overloaded tow vehicle often puts the finger of responsibility on you in a court of law as well.

4. Towing with an undersized vehicle is no fun, leaving you "on edge" all the time on the highway, which is not the relaxing, enjoyable experience you anticipated when buying a boat.

6. Better off to use a tow vehicle with a safety margin in both towing and stopping, and one that will have enough extra capacity to work in the next stage of your boating life, which may involve a larger payload/boat as well.

Just a few added thoughts!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
mgarr682":7205vkgz said:
And, any excuse to drive across the country is an added perk.
Click to expand...

Indeed :thup

Sea Wolf":7205vkgz said:
Sooner or later in these discussions, a few admonitions usually come up:

Don't use so light a vehicle to tow that you're constantly at the limits when towing, because-

1. You'll have to replace the transmission (if automatic) at around 65k miles or so, just from overheating, especially if used a lot in the summer, on mountain grades, in heavy freeway stop and go traffic, etc..
Click to expand...

This came up in another thread and I asked a question in response, but then the thread ended there (maybe it was something I said ;))

In that other thread, the statement was made that if one tows at over 75% of the rated tow capacity of a given vehicle, then one is just basically guaranteed to ruin the transmission very prematurely. This caught my eye as I do tow at over 75% of the rated capacity of my van (GCWR is 13,000#, I'm at about 12,000# gross combined with the 22 in tow).

I had already figured that the transmission is probably the weakest link in my setup, since it is an E-250HD, and the same E-250 van is rated at higher GCWR's with different engine/transmission combos. I also only have a 3-speed auto, without the nifty "tow/haul" or etc. I have no desire to "fry" my transmission prematurely. The van seems to be perfectly comfortable towing my 22, but I like numbers, so I got a Scangauge II. This is a nifty little gauge that simply plugs into the OBD II port and then gives you numbers for all sorts of things, including the ones I primarily bought it for - engine cooling fluid temperature (WT) and transmission fluid temperature (TFT). So, the numbers:

My van will normally run on the highway, not towing, with a TFT in the 150'sºF or so (changes slightly with ambient temp). Towing, it's around 160º-165ºF. Going up hills or non-extreme mountains, it's in the 160's or low 170º's. Going over a long, steep pass (say, Homestake in summer), I've got it up to 183ºF just at the summit. I got the idea, from reading around on the web, that that is not a "damaging" temperature, especially if only briefly. So here was my question:

Can the transmission be "secretly" sustaining early-failure type damage if the temperature always remains in the safe range? Or to put it another way, wouldn't damage necessarily be reflected by heat? In my non-expert mind, I can't think of how damage could be occurring without heat, but then I don't know, which is why I'm asking. I certainly don't want to prematurely kill my transmission (especially while thinking I'm not), but I do tow at over 75% of the rated limit for my vehicle.

Thanks,
Sunbeam

PS: Did some towing over the summer with an F-350 dually/V-10 -- what a dream tow machine! -- and it did run with a slightly cooler TFT, but, interestingly, not that much cooler than my van: 150's-low 160's when towing, 170's on the steeps. And I was nowhere NEAR the GCWR at that time, since it's got a massive GCWR number. It is a "handier" transmission for towing, too, since it's a 4-speed. Nice rig all around (although for my uses I prefer the van form factor).
 
Sunbeam,

I have rebuilt a number of auto trannies (and other parts) when I worked in a 4x4 shop in Spokane. As you noted, too much heat does them in very quickly. Just remember, your temp gauge measures the average heat of the transmission and measured by the temperature of the fluid. Some parts of your transmission are running far hotter than you think. Some far cooler. Just how hot? That is tough to tell. If it were too hot, it would have already had a major failure. Keeping cool, clean fuild in it will greatly extent the life of the transmission. I change mine every year in my E-450 V10 motorhome.

Trucks have ratings for a reason and if you are within the parameters, the truck/van will be fine, at least safety wise. Longevity wise, well that is another topic entirely as anytime you increase the load you increase the heat. And in doing so, reduce the longevity of the components doing the work. How much? Again, that is hard to measure, but probably not too significantly if you are in the middle of the GVCW bell curve.

I would agree that the more truck you have, the better off you are going to be in the long run and would go as far as to say that one of heavy diesel or big block gassers will pull a CD 25 for twice or even three times as long (without major issue) as the 1/2 ton trucks will.

Surely, some of you are going to say the 1/2 is rated to do it. No argument from me, but for how long? How many miles? How many years? Well the proof is in the pudding and I still regularly tow and haul with my 1978 F250 with a 460 and a C6 three speed trans. Guess what? The truck has well over 200,000 miles on the original eninge, tranny, and rear end. Nearly all of these miles are from pulling horse trailers, boats, hauling dirt, bricks, stone, lumber, car trailers, construction equipment, and other heavy fairly heavy stuff. And, it isn't because I take that good of care of it, it's components are just made for heavy duty usage and I am not pushing anything near limits of its duty capabilities. A 1/2 F150 would have died a long time ago I'm sure.......It is just too much, too often, and is built for light duty usage.
 
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