25/26 vs 22 in rough waters

C

C-Slug

New member
Hi,
I have tried to search this topic and found some great stuff but wanted to get deeper into my specifics. Here goes!
I have had a C-Dory 22 for about 5 years now and I love it and am very fortunate for it. I love it's fuel economy and simplicity. I also appreciate its seaworthiness. This is my first boat.
Typically we will take her out in good weather, but here in the Santa Barbara Channel, you never really know what you're going to get. Wind directions change, fog comes up quick, swell builds, etc. It's a wild place. A few times now I've had conditions change quickly for the worse and although it's never been too scary I do wonder if a slightly bigger hull would make it safer. A self-bailing hull with some deadrise, I would think, might help too.
Anyone with experience taking a 22 vs. 25 or 26 out in rough conditions? How do they compare?
Thank you!
Crawford
 
The 25 will handle rough water better. But heavy conditions are just that. I spent 50 years of my life sailing off S. Calif. so I know what your conditions are out of Santa Barbara and the Channel Islands. When we got a "new boat" (sail) and wanted to see how it handled rough conditions, we would head for San Miguel Island, and Point Conception.

The average day in the channel can get a bit sporty in the afternoons. At one time I ran a deep V--(about 22* dead rise) Ray Hunt designed hull. Even with this boat, I had to slow down to cross the channel in the evenings. Any of the C Dory line will have low deadrise--you have to put the bow down, and accept spay as you buck into chop. The 25 will be better than the 22, but a deep V they are not. The deep V has a lot of trade offs--better going into chop--not so well going with the wind waves. The fuel economy will be worse, the boats will roll more.

There are hulls designed for the channel, like the Radon's Not often seen in Calif. are boats like the Contender and Regulator--not pilot house boats but with 24* deep V.

We owned 25's because of the increased room and head, as well as the better ride. My son runs a 25 C Dory out of Dana Point. For any of the C Dory line, I would advise going out early in the day, then 95% of the time, you will be going down or cross wind/seas coming back to your home port.
 
Any C Dory is not a "go anywhere big water boat".
Realize, at extremes in weather, even the largest Navy ships have difficulties.

I've had my CD 26 Venture challenge the large notorious "square wave"*
pattern of Lake Michigan (aka The Lake of a Thousand Moods) and can
report these experiences are not pleasurable.

Longer story shortened: Length is ride. Ride is subjective.

Aye.

* steep, short-period waves; heights principally a function of wind speed and
fetch creating waves in excess of 10 meters (33'), about the height of a 4 story
home.
Lake Superior took the S.S. Edmund Fitzgerald, a 730' cargo ship and the lives
of all 29 crew, November 10, 1975.
https://www.michiganseagrant.org/lesson ... itzgerald/

Over time, there have been more than 6,000 shipwrecks in the Great Lakes taking
an estimated 30,000 mariners lives.
https://www.shipwreckmuseum.com/underwa ... hipwrecks/
 
I’ve never been out in a 22. On a trip in my 25 my buddy described it as school bus waves coming from all directions. Not comfortable but it has handled a lot for me. For real comfort go for an 8000+ Grady white or Boston whaler, but we all know the trade off.
 
Thanks for the replies.
That Ray Hunt design looks a lot to my beginner's eyes a little like a Radon hull--lots of deadrise and chines and belly. Nice looking boats. Probably not great for fuel economy! The commercial Radons around here are very heavy by design, to plow through waves and wind on following seas (typical for afternoons coming home).
We are very careful in picking our days out but there are times when the conditions change suddenly, or there are localized weather events that surprise you. Often in the shipping channel, as one example, there will be big waves out of nowhere. I've taken a few on the deck on days that were otherwise glassy. Thankfully my bilge has handled that without issue. But the more you go out, the more the law of averages is likely to catch up to you!
Thanks for the info on the Great Lakes. A lot of wind, like here, it seems.
BTW I used to live at Ocean Beach in San Francisco and would watch the Coast Guard boats play in the surf in 15 ft. conditions for practice. Pretty awesome to watch.
Take care.
 
We have seen several 22's out at Santa Cruz Island, which means they've crossed the Santa Barbara Channel. In fact we saw one going west on the south side during the afternoon.

From these sightings, a 22 can handle the channel. It's still best to cross in the morn, before the wind comes up.

I'm also glad that we have a 25, since a bigger boat does better in rough weather. But the trip can be done in a 22. We went to Santa Cruz many times in a Catalina 22 sailboat.

Boris
 
On a sail from Newport to St Maarten, via Bermuda, I met a guy who sailed a
Catalina 22 around the world, twice. Impressive, but not for just anybody.

But the more you go out, the more the law of averages is likely to catch up to you!
Click to expand...
I like that. It goes with my current mantra 'less is more'...

Aye.
 
I ran side by side with a CD-25 about 12 miles down Knight Inlet one (long) day. We were about 100 feet to 100 yards apart, running into a 3 - 5 foot wind against tide steep chop. Mostly in the 4 to 6 or 7 knot range. We were both throwing big spray, but I was the one with the rougher ride, way more hobby horsing, and green water on the foredeck.

It was with this boat, (the CD-25 in the background), "Plan B" out of California. Sure wish I could get in touch with the owners. They were a really nice young couple and we spent a few days together, exploring. This is anchored near Mound Island in the southern Broughtons.

6_June_2017.sized.jpg

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

9_Sept_Seq_2019_Cal.thumb.jpg
 
T.R. Bauer":2fhvqeic said:
No question when you add 3 feet it's a better ride. Safer? I honestly don't know, but it can't be by much, if at all.
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The one feature which makes the 25 a "safer" boat is that it has a self bailing cockpit. All be it that the scuppers are relatively small, and some are even set too low on the boat. There are some of the early C Dory 25's (in the 2002-2004 era which have an opening to the bilge way aft, with a lip around it, and some have a lid. The Cruise ships (1995-96) have a variety of cockpit differences--my son's is very similar to a 2007, yet I have seen at least one of the "Cruise ships" which have the open aft cockpit deck like the 2002/2004 boats.

It is very rare for much water to get into the cockpit of a 22--but if it does, it could be a major issue.
 
thataway":1wxdhk1f said:
T.R. Bauer":1wxdhk1f said:
No question when you add 3 feet it's a better ride. Safer? I honestly don't know, but it can't be by much, if at all.
Click to expand...

The one feature which makes the 25 a "safer" boat is that it has a self bailing cockpit. All be it that the scuppers are relatively small, and some are even set too low on the boat. There are some of the early C Dory 25's (in the 2002-2004 era which have an opening to the bilge way aft, with a lip around it, and some have a lid. The Cruise ships (1995-96) have a variety of cockpit differences--my son's is very similar to a 2007, yet I have seen at least one of the "Cruise ships" which have the open aft cockpit deck like the 2002/2004 boats.

It is very rare for much water to get into the cockpit of a 22--but if it does, it could be a major issue.
Click to expand...

I've always wondered if they would even drain on a CD 25 if a person accidently filled the back of the boat on set of bad following waves they couldn't outrun. I don't think anyone actually knows, but I do know nobody wants to find out. I guess you might survive the first one and maybe it would drain before the 2nd and 3rd. One thing is sure, it absolutely wouldn't drain in a CD 22. I suspect everyone will be swimming.
 
T.R. Bauer":w5z39jl1 said:
... I've always wondered if they would even drain on a CD 25 if a person accidently filled the back of the boat on set of bad following waves they couldn't outrun. I don't think anyone actually knows, but I do know nobody wants to find out. I guess you might survive the first one and maybe it would drain before the 2nd and 3rd. One thing is sure, it absolutely wouldn't drain in a CD 22. I suspect everyone will be swimming.
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You might think that since the scuppers on the 25 are so low, a good pooping might put enough weight in the cockpit that the scuppers become submerged and wouldn't drain. Further pooping would make things worse. Some people say that the scuppers are underwater when the boat is just heavily loaded.
 
I'm not sure I'm convinced that the 25 rides any better than the 22. Sure, it's more stable laterally when you walk side to side. However, I owned the 22 for 10 years, and have now had my 25 going into my third season. When I did Alaska's Inside Passage in my 22, with a couple in a 25, it appeared we both took the rougher chop about the same. My 25 doesn't feel any more comfortable in 2 foot chop than my 22 did. They both tend to ride rough in any form of chop on plane. My wife felt more safe sitting in the cockpit of a 22 than in the 25, simply with the lower floor, thus higher gunnels. The 25 scuppers are under water with any weight in the cockpit. But that only matters when you are still in the water. If you want the bigger boat for the enclosed head and more room, go for it. If you want it for a better ride, I'm just not convinced in my experience that it's that much different. BTW, the scuppers do work underway. Also, I had two bilge pumps when I had my 22. They could pump a lot of water quickly. I guess it all comes down to how much water you are talking about. Colby
 
I had two bilge pumps when I had my 22. They could pump a lot of water quickly. I guess it all comes down to how much water you are talking about. Colby
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Colby, there are none of the bilge pumps in any of the C Dory line, which really move a lot of water! The head, plus often using the crinkle type of bilge pump hose, makes them even less efficient. Pour 5 gallons of water into the bilge and see low long it takes to pump it out, They try with 50 or 500 gallons! How much water would the cockpit of either a 22 or a 25 hold? My rough calculation is 1,000 gallons.

Fortunately the C Dory does very well with following seas, and lifts rapidly to avoid filling with waves. IF the transom/stern were held down by a stern anchor, and a heavy current and waves from the stern--would be a different matter.
 
Colby, there are none of the bilge pumps in any of the C Dory line, which really move a lot of water!
Click to expand...

My original bilge pump in the 22 was 500gph. I changed that to an 800, and added a 1100gph backup pump. I think I've got the same combination in my 25 bilge now. Combined they could pump a lot of water. 1000 gallons would probably sink any small boat... Colby
 
On SleepyC I have an 1100 Rule-Mate in the forward cockpit bilge, and a 1500 Rule-Mate in the aft sunken dish bilge. On one crossing of Juan de Fuca, I apparently bumped my bilge switch off the auto position with my knee. When I realized that, I had about 8 inches at the aft wall of the cockpit. I was running about 7-8 knots in forward port quartering seas with a stiff 15+ breeze so the cockpit was loading with splash/spray from the waves. It took about 1 minute to empty. Boat sure felt better.:lol: ME TOO :shock: 8)

And Yes, I have smooth bore hoses.

Harvey
SleepyC :moon

9_Sept_Seq_2019_Cal.thumb.jpg
 
If the rear deck on a boat is pooped, you need to move that water now. An 800 gph pump, if everything (including the hose) was at max efficiency, would move about 13 gallons per minute. Not much, not very fast.

That said, we had Wild Blue in a lot of conditions during the years, and getting any water in the cockpit was extremely rare.

We only had the 25, not the 22, but in traveling with a couple C-Dory groups, it seemed to me that the additional one ton of weight, more waterline, and beam of the 25 provided a better ride than the 22 at the same speeds. I agree that 2' chop would have us slow down, but the 22 would need to slow even more to get a similar ride.

For us, slowing down wasn't an issue... go for the best ride or fuel efficiency vs making miles.

The only time our scuppers were underwater was while tied to the dock with 7 adults in the cockpit (under the cover of our camperback to get out of the weather). Yes, it was a crowd.
 
colbysmith":37bhfhie said:
Colby, there are none of the bilge pumps in any of the C Dory line, which really move a lot of water!
Click to expand...

My original bilge pump in the 22 was 500gph. I changed that to an 800, and added a 1100gph backup pump. I think I've got the same combination in my 25 bilge now. Combined they could pump a lot of water. 1000 gallons would probably sink any small boat... Colby
Click to expand...



The reality is that none of these Rule pumps can put out anywhere near the "rated" capacity

This Boat US article shows that the 500 gal per hour pump may realistically be only capable of 100 to 150 gallons per hour. 100 gal per hour loss due to voltage less than 12.8 volts, 150 gallon per hour loss due to head pressure of pressure of 36", and 100 gallon per hour loss due to 3/4-inch corrugated hose.

Displacement pump do better than the free plastic vane pumps. When on our sailboats we always carried a Whale Gusher 30 double diaphragm manual pump. It was capable of 30 gallons per minute, if you could keep up the cadence of 30 pumps per minute. We had water intrusion thru companionway and some hatches during severe N. Atlantic Storm on crossing Bermuda to Azores. (40' breaking seas and 3 days of winds in excess of 65 knots) where solid water was regularly breaking on deck. I had to supplement our two 1000 gallon electric pumps. There was enough sawdust and dog hair in the far reaches of hull that it regularly plugged up the bilge pump strainers. (We had tried to get any debris out by washing with a hose behind all cabinets before our voyage started.) The manual diaphragm pumps can take all of that debris out with each stroke, If anything does plug up plug up the pump, a simple opening of the chamber will clear it in seconds.
 
Those actual GPH numbers are why I have a 2000 GPH pump with smooth wall hose in my CD 16. I figure that gets me a realistic 600 GPH, about the same rate I could do with a bucket (probably not for an hour). For a serious wave over the stern, GPH likely won't help. I would have to rely on PFD and DSC.
 
Thanks for all the replies! Really appreciate the knowledge here and kindness to share.
Colby, I will be installing a second bilge on our boat too, just in case the primary ever gives out.
As for the scuppers on the 25, I figured you'd have to be up and moving for those to work, which makes some sense. What doesn't make sense is that when you stop to go fishing or spend the night they will fill up with water! I'm never going to remember to put the plugs back in before slowing down.
To be clear, I'm in the Santa Barbara Channel routinely with our 22. On a good day, it's a breeze. On an OK day it's still fun. But when you get wind and mixed swell at a few feet, plus the following (longer period) groundswell on the way home, it's less fun. It's a lot to rely on NOAA forecast to get right. I've been out a couple of times where I thought, "10 more knots of wind and two more feet of swell and I'd be challenged." These were days predicted to be relatively calm.
Sum total, sounds like a 25 gives a smoother ride (and a bathroom option). But not necessarily more peace of mind.
 
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