23' Venture Questions

W

Will-C

New member
Hello,
In looking at the Fluid Marine information about the 23' Venture the weight shows 3020 pounds. They recommend a 115hp or twin 70's for power. Yet the performance chart for the 23' Venture shows twin 50's; seems to be a bit of a conflict.
It would seem that weighing a 1000 pounds more than a 22' Cruiser the 23' would be a tad under powered with a 115hp. Loaded with four people and the usual amount of gear running in an inlet from the ocean is not a good spot to be under powered. I wondered if the foam composite rather than the balsa core is what makes the 23' Venture so much heavier than a 22'cruiser. I know the hull has a little deeper v but they don't seem that much different in size. I guess the shore power and the refridge count for some of it. All of the weights listed are from the new C-Dory website and are dry no motors etc. When you consider a 25' cruiser's weight is listed at 3602 and is rated at 200hp the 115 power recommendation seems a little light given that there is only 600 pounds difference between a 23' and a 25'. Your thoughts?
D.D.
 
we bought our cape cruiser 23 (same hull as venture 23) minus the gussied up vinyl and larger windows in back and less storage space then the new venture .C-dory has done a remarkable job of using all of the space
Now getting back to weight the cape cruiser brochure showed the weight as 2900 lb thats with the refer,hydraulic steering ,power windshield wipers and maybe even the windlass not sure on that though .
We have a f-115 yamaha 4 stroke with a S/S 15pitch prop the boat will do 34-35 mph lighly loaded 1-2 persons 20-30- gallons of fuel and safety equipment etc.
Yesterday we were out tubing with my friends college kids (spring break) we had 5 people on the boat at 4700 rpm we were doing 22mph pulling a tube and they were having a ball We can cruise all day long at 20-22mph between 4400-4600 rpm . If I bought the boat new I would opt for a 135 -150 for water sports if just for fishing a 115 would be fine
BTW I had a cruiser 22 with a 90 suzuki It would do identical speed and mileage was exactly the same
Getting back to weight If you put on similar size eng same water tank and same electronics I think the c-22 would weigh in about 600 lb less not the 1000 the brochures say The venture has more stuff refer , elec wipers hydaulic steering
usually a windlass but the navigation aids and coast guard kit and every other item would be the same weight
When pulling my c-22 3800lb vs 4500lb for the venture 23 just my 2cents worth
 
Our Cape Cruiser 23 has a Honda 135 and seems to be the right amount of power for us.We can cruise at 4400 at 25 knots when the weathers good. Thought about the 150 but probably not necessary.
 
You are correct that part of the weight is the heavier foam core versus balsa. Also the interior is one complete m olded insert, versus seperate modulular pieces on the 22. The 23 is also wider, and carries it's beam further forward.

As mentioned, the refer, 110 System, trim tabs and more are standard, so I would agree with the 600 pound difference on similarly equipped 22 and 23 models.

I sold a 23 Cape Cruiser recently with a 115 Etec and 9.9 Johnson 4 stroke (rebadged Suzuki). It was a great running boat, and would get into the low 30's comfortably.

If buying new, if the price difference wasn't too great you could go to a 130 / 140, but with 4 of us in the boat, 3/4 fuel the boat felt lively and I didn't wish for more power.

I know that there are plans to runs some 23 and 26 ventures this spring and get better performance numbers on them.
 
The only way to know what any boat weighs is to put the boat on a scale--on its trailer, then weight the trailer. Often the "Factory" weights are off.

Remember that many c dory 22's are powered with only a 70 hp, and for some they perform adequately. Only recently did C Dory 22 approve more than 90 hp.

The "performance" figures also are somewhat suspect--since they are with light boats-(often little or no water, less than full fuel tanks, and no gear. Both the CC venture and C Dory22 are low deadrise hulls, and do not need much HP. At the cruising speeds of 18 knots the boats do well with the lower hp. It takes the "extra HP" to get up to higher speeds.

If you want a fast boat--look other than a C Dory--they are not designed as fast boats. In the C Dory line--the Tom Cat is the fastest. Some feel that the top speed that the plain C Dory 22 can manage easily is close to 30 knots.

Back to the 25's--they all come in considerably more than the "estimate" The average boat on a trailer is somewhere between 7,000 and 8,000 lbs: much more than the 23.--and only a very few boats have 200 hp. In fact most have between 130 and 150 hp. With the 130, which I have, the boat will handle very well in following seas--as you might find in running an inlet. You only need enough HP to stay on a the back of a wave. The 130 on the much heavier 25 is more than adequate for that.
 
Ill add another perspective here . We have sold a 23 V with 150 Suz.Pretty heavily rigged boat with many accessories/neccesities.I had a chance to drive it around Little St George Island through a very rough and shallow pass [West Pass] on a windy day . It [150 4 stroke] is so effortless to drive at slow speed and has a nice balance on the wider and heavier boat. When seas are nice or watertoys are being towed it will run fast and handle better than expected at speed , and overall fuel consumption will be similar . The boat will be able to do more things well with the 150 . It will still function very well with the smaller motor , but again it can handle speed well . And its fun to go fast once in a while .
For a relatively small dollar difference ,and having the option, Id go with the <H.P.
Marc
 
Hi Dave,

The MARCIA JANE (2008 Venture 23) is powered by a 135 h.p. Honda. I chose the 135 when I found out the 115 was actually a heavier motor. Sportscraft Marina steered me straight on this choice and I'm really glad I chose the big one. My top speed is 35 mph (GPS measured) on a smooth lake type day off of Santa Barbara. I haven't had it in really rough water yet, but I feel that I have all the power I need in most conditions.

I'm weighing the whole rig, boat, trailer and hitch this week and will report what I find.

All in all, I feel the 135 is a great choice for the Venture 23. :D

Kent McClish
MARCIA JANE
 
Hello,
Thanks to all the thoughtful responses. After going back and forth between a 140 or 135 the 150 wins out. I don't think the 150 will have to work as hard and should be quieter and quicker to get up on plane. Hopefully running around 3500 - 4000 the fuel consumtion won't be too much worse.
D.D.
 
Just a side question am looking at difference in the ride with the venture vs the 22 cruiser, am tossing and turning between the 2 boats. I am coming from a deep V boat.
 
Having run both, I will say the 23 runs a bit better in a chop. It has more of a modified V hull shape, with deeper entry that cuts through waves nicely. In a chop, slow down to 14 knots or so, the bow drops down and it becomes a very comfortable ride.

The 22 behaves similarly, but not quite as smooth. Part of that may be the extra weight of the 23.

In the end, for many, the decision may come down to the interior. On the new boats, the 23 has a more refined interior, which some people prefer. Others prefer the more simple interior of the 22. You pays your money and you makes your choices.

Equally equipped (adding 110V, Refer, handrails and trim tabs to the 22), there will be about a $10,000 difference between the 22 and 23. Part of this is larger engine (115 vs. 90), larger trailer, and extra standard equipment (hot water, valences, accent lighting).

I sold a used 23 Venture last month, and on teh sea trial was a friend of the buyer who owns a 22, and he felt the 23 had a bit better ride. But either boat is more than capable, and there are lots of very happy 22 owners, so the difference isn't huge.
 
Hello,
I'm in the process of buying a 23 from Charlie at Wefings in Florida. They ride better than a 22'Cruiser as stated by folks that have had both. They feature a composite core rather than a balsa core which makes them about a 1000 pounds heavier than a 22' Cruiser the 23 can take up to 150 hp but 115 to 135 hp seem to be the norm. They cost at least 10k more but have a number of standard features the 22' does not. Trim tabs , shore power, and they are insulated. I think the 22' is cheaper to run max 100hp but 75 to 90 hp is the norm. It's lighter making towing cheaper as that extra 1000 pounds can make you jump to a larger rig to tow it compared to the 22. The 22 will go thru almost anything you can throw at it. But the 22 has a pretty flatbottom and you have to go slow or lose your fillings from your teeth. It is one tough boat but noisy. Most 22 owners swear by trim tabs or Permatrims to push the bow down when going thru snotty conditions. In my thinking the 23 was designed to be an improved version of the 22. I doubt the old guard will ever except the Venture Series. The 22 has a large cult following and like the simplicty and ecomomics of the 22 and who could blame them. The 23 is a different boat and I have been battling the decision for a few years. The 23 comes with most of the items I would have added to the 22 anyway. For me this part is over. I hope you have fun with the process. This site and the people who make it what is are a big part of me buying a C-Dory.
D.D.
 
Matt, and D.D.

I appreciate the feedback, as I have been looking at the price difference and features, I think the wife would be more inclined to go for the comforts of the 23, so this may be the better way to go, Matt I will be up in a few months and if you happen to have one in stock will take it around the block for a spin.
 
We do have one, and your comment about your wife is part of the reason for the upgraded trim of the Venture series.

It may not be as "pure" a design in the form follows function school, but there are people who prefer the more upholstered look.

So we have two boats, one that appeals to the "purists" and one that is a little more creaure comfort oriented. You sat Tomahto, I say Tomato. Either will be a good boat.
 
How many of the 23's have added Permatrims? From what it does on the 25, in the way of increasing the comfort of the ride, I suspect that it would do as much or maybe more on the 23.

The subject of Balsa vs foam core is extremely complex. But generally Balsa Core is heavier than Foam core (depending on specific foam, and the thickness of each material). It is far more likely that the 23 is heavier because it is 1. a bigger boat-- 9" longer and 4" wider, 2 had more interior liners.

I am not 100% sure how thick the "foam insullation" on the head liner is, but I believe it is just the fractional inch foam which is faced by vinly--not 1/2" to 5/8" closed cell foam--and there will be little "R" value of this combined foam/vinly. Balsa core (or foam core for that matter) is also an insulating substance.

Looking at balsa, it is an excellent material, with almost 3 x the compressive and shear strength of most foams, plus being a bit cheaper, and somewhat easier to work with (depending on the application-for example it can be bent in 3 dimensions because there are multiple squares of end grain on the scrim) The amount of glass on either side of the core is also a factor in weight.

The major dis-advantage of the Balsa is that if it gets wet, it becomes heavier, and will eventually have some rot. The water intrusion depends on the building process. Generally the C Dories have faired far better than the majorities of balsa cored boats--that is because there are very few intrusions into the core, and there is sufficient glass on both sides of the core. There can be some disadvantages of foam cores--but mostly depending on the amount of glass on each side. There very few failures of the balsa core even in boats 30 years old.
 
thataway":npwi285l said:
How many of the 23's have added Permatrims? From what it does on the 25, in the way of increasing the comfort of the ride, I suspect that it would do as much or maybe more on the 23.
Click to expand...

Bob,

As noted elsewhere, I have recently installed Permatrims on my twin engines and really like them. I got along fine on some long trips before I got the Permatrims, but they definitely are an improvement - especially so, not surprisingly, when beating into a modest chop. They provide a remarkable increase in comfort (but, I fear, at some cost in fuel consumption). With the twins, I also get quite good lateral leveling at speed, and interestingly, I believe I can actually increase fuel efficiency by raising or lowering only one engine to level the boat in a cross wind. (I think there is a fairly small window of opportunity for this effect before having the two engines "fighting" each other becomes less rather than more efficient.) I see absolutely no need for trim tabs on a V23 with Permatrims on twin engines.

Since my boat is an "original" Venture 23 (Pre-CD acquisition of the molds), I don't have much to contribute to the discussion of current relative weights between the 22 and the 23. I have balsa core and an unlined interior. I'm guessing my boat is somewhat lighter than the current 23s, but don't really know. I have run the boat very heavily loaded and am completely happy with two Yamaha F50s. I have good responsiveness in heavy seas, and 28+ knots is fast enough for anything I want to do.
 
As far as weight- Having held core samples of the same size of balsa and foam , I can say the foam is definately heavier. Even the 3" x 3" core samples we had at the show, it was a significant and noticeable difference.
 
NORO LIM":10zsnxkl said:
thataway":10zsnxkl said:
How many of the 23's have added Permatrims? From what it does on the 25, in the way of increasing the comfort of the ride, I suspect that it would do as much or maybe more on the 23.
Click to expand...

Bob,

As noted elsewhere, I have recently installed Permatrims . . . they definitely are an improvement - especially so, not surprisingly, when beating into a modest chop. They provide a remarkable increase in comfort (but, I fear, at some cost in fuel consumption). . .
Click to expand...

Just to clarify. I do not think overall that the Permatrims have measurably reduced fuel efficiency. But, putting the bow down in the chop with the Permatrims, while comfortable, definitely burns a little more fuel than running along at the same speed with the bow up - and pounding a little more, of course.
 
Hay Dave-Congratulations on the new boat. I know you will enjoy it. Remember to pull in those mirrors while crossing the bridge at New Hope and especially Washington's Crossing!. :wink:
 
Even trimming the bow down severely with trim tabs will decrease fuel efficiency. The Permatrims can accentuate this. Generally when running with deep V boats when they are hard to get on a plane (hull form/underpowered/weight distribution) you give full trim tabs to depress the bow. As the boat is on a plane, you back off the trim tabs/engine trim, until the boat is running level, and at the fastest speed for the RPM which you choose---and that will give you the most fuel efficient running. Putting the bow back down because of chop, will again, decrease RPM--and you will have to increase RPM (Power/fuel consumption) to keep the same speed/fuel economy.
 
We have the 06 cape cruiser (venture) bought in 08 .I'm not sure if we have the foam core or balsa core in our boats .I thought when i went to the factory in 06 that they said balsa cored. The brochure that I have said the boat weight was 2900lb with refrigerator,windlass ,wipers ,hydraulic steering.The new ventures have bigger windows in the back ,also foam and vinyl in headliner and v-berth and much better storage then the cape cruiser that it replaced.I would like to know maybe the factory would know about balsa vs foam.
As far as permatrim I have a f-115 (400lb) eng on the back with lenco trim tabs I rarely use the trim tabs just side to side motion (lateral ).I find with eng trimmed down I don't need it. maybe with a heavier eng or twins permatrim might be helpful .We cruise at about 23mph at 4400rpm using about 4.5gallons an hour with navman fuel .this seems to be the sweet spot .Although she will plane off at about 12mph at 3500rpm
We are averaging about 5mpg this is with lots of no wake zones and cruising at 4500rpm.So far we are very happy with the boat .
 
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