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Water Under Aft Cockpit in 07 Venture
- Thread starter Tim & Dave Kinghorn
- Start date
Cutty Sark
New member
Best day,
When you cut the topskin the core will still be attached (most likely) on the underside of the fiberglass skin, depending on how wet/ rotten it is. I would try to slice just the skin off leaving as much balsa as possible still attached to the hull, and then just get a couple fans and point them right at the area. It doesn't have to be heat like a hair dryer. Just plain circulation will help. When we had big moisture problems and called in the pros at a previous career I had, they brought huge fans not heater's to dry everything out. I would try to do this in a climate controlled enviroment if possible. After it dries out and you can determine how bad the balsa actually is, then you can decide where to go. My feeling is if its just wet but not rotten, I would just reattach the skin and reinforce if neccessary, then also make sure where ever the water is coming from is found and fixed. If the core is damaged depending on the level of damage, there are some products that will help to restore structure to the balsa such as git rot. If it's too far gone I would just remove the core all the way down to the glass and just install a new section. I did a small 2-1/2 inch circle on my 16 and completely replaced the damaged core, it wasnt all that difficult. Reglassing the top or redoing it will be the biggest challange in my mind. Depending on what the surface texture is and if youre trying to match. I have a few pics of my small project in my album and I know thataway had some good pics of his restoration on a 25.
Sark
When you cut the topskin the core will still be attached (most likely) on the underside of the fiberglass skin, depending on how wet/ rotten it is. I would try to slice just the skin off leaving as much balsa as possible still attached to the hull, and then just get a couple fans and point them right at the area. It doesn't have to be heat like a hair dryer. Just plain circulation will help. When we had big moisture problems and called in the pros at a previous career I had, they brought huge fans not heater's to dry everything out. I would try to do this in a climate controlled enviroment if possible. After it dries out and you can determine how bad the balsa actually is, then you can decide where to go. My feeling is if its just wet but not rotten, I would just reattach the skin and reinforce if neccessary, then also make sure where ever the water is coming from is found and fixed. If the core is damaged depending on the level of damage, there are some products that will help to restore structure to the balsa such as git rot. If it's too far gone I would just remove the core all the way down to the glass and just install a new section. I did a small 2-1/2 inch circle on my 16 and completely replaced the damaged core, it wasnt all that difficult. Reglassing the top or redoing it will be the biggest challange in my mind. Depending on what the surface texture is and if youre trying to match. I have a few pics of my small project in my album and I know thataway had some good pics of his restoration on a 25.
Sark
Cutty Sark":tihzmh7g said:Best day,
When you cut the topskin the core will still be attached (most likely) on the underside of the fiberglass skin, depending on how wet/ rotten it is. I would try to slice just the skin off leaving as much balsa as possible still attached to the hull,
Sark
Hello Sark,
I don't mean to be a smart*$$ or argumentative, but just to be clear, Bill of Best Day is describing a wet core situation in the cockpit deck and NOT the hull. If I am misunderstanding the situation, please correct me.
I noted the nice repair you performed on your 16 a while back. The finished product looked great.
/david
Best Day":a0xi3nuv said:If I could remove just the topskin and leave all or most of the balsa core in place that would be great. How do I do this? Hammer and chisel?
Bill
Hello Bill,
I've never done this before, so keep that in mind as I make a suggestion...the way I would tackle 'incremental' removal would be to use a router with a 3/8 or 1/2 inch straight cutting bit and slowly lower the bit such that it would cut away the fiberglass, etc to the depth you desire. You could hot glue four small pieces/strips of wood around the perimeter of the area to provide 'stops' for the router should it 'get away' (a technical term) from you...you know, the router base would be stopped by the wood pieces.
ABSOLUTELY wear a respirator/mask when you do this as fiberglass dust will be created and you don't want to inhale that crud. Safety glasses and hearing protection too...
Let us know whatever technique you end up using.
/david
Simplicity
New member
Bill- Thanks for the tip about the forward plug. I'll check it tomorrow. Hope you work out a good fix for the boat. Alan
I'll have to drop by Home Depot and see what type of moisture meter you got is there a model number? I see a number of them on the web site.
Yes, removing the top layer is a viable way to start the repair. This apparently is not structural (like the hull or an area of the cockpit floor which you step upon). It is not unusual to cut the top layer of the fiberglass around the edge where you want to remove it. A Fein or Dremel saw will do this well. You can use a router zip router or dremel tool router. I find that the Fein or Dremel (Harbor freight has a cheaper version available)--this allows a very thin cut, and not very deep. The standard router will work, but you have to use a carbide bit--and it will make a considerably wider cut than one of the saws.
I would peel off the top--using a sharp chissel or "slick". working under the top glass would be the way to go. You can determine how much wet the core is, and if you can dry it with heat and air (our experience is that just air takes a very long time, and is less likely to get it dry--if you can use a dehumidifier and seal the area with plastic, this will help to lower the humidity and make the drying process faster. You have to drive the moisture out of the wood. What we don't know is how much penetration there is into the balsa core itself (penetration of the wood cells).
You can try the half the balsa if you want...it will be a trick to get a clean cut with a router on wet balsa. I would remove all of the balsa--and put in new balsa. Yes, you can put in a solid laminate--but this will be much heavier--and use a lot of glass.
If you save the top piece, you may be able to "glue it back in" with epoxy--and then fill the edges with polyester and then gel coat these edges if necessary. If you don't want to gel coat (cosmetic)--then use epoxy all of the way around. Epoxy gives much better bonding. If you were rebuilding a hull, then I would suggest that you cut a 12/1 scarf around the edge and relaminate at the 12/1 ration--for a strong repair.
Yes, putting up photos will help all of us--as well as you.
Yes, removing the top layer is a viable way to start the repair. This apparently is not structural (like the hull or an area of the cockpit floor which you step upon). It is not unusual to cut the top layer of the fiberglass around the edge where you want to remove it. A Fein or Dremel saw will do this well. You can use a router zip router or dremel tool router. I find that the Fein or Dremel (Harbor freight has a cheaper version available)--this allows a very thin cut, and not very deep. The standard router will work, but you have to use a carbide bit--and it will make a considerably wider cut than one of the saws.
I would peel off the top--using a sharp chissel or "slick". working under the top glass would be the way to go. You can determine how much wet the core is, and if you can dry it with heat and air (our experience is that just air takes a very long time, and is less likely to get it dry--if you can use a dehumidifier and seal the area with plastic, this will help to lower the humidity and make the drying process faster. You have to drive the moisture out of the wood. What we don't know is how much penetration there is into the balsa core itself (penetration of the wood cells).
You can try the half the balsa if you want...it will be a trick to get a clean cut with a router on wet balsa. I would remove all of the balsa--and put in new balsa. Yes, you can put in a solid laminate--but this will be much heavier--and use a lot of glass.
If you save the top piece, you may be able to "glue it back in" with epoxy--and then fill the edges with polyester and then gel coat these edges if necessary. If you don't want to gel coat (cosmetic)--then use epoxy all of the way around. Epoxy gives much better bonding. If you were rebuilding a hull, then I would suggest that you cut a 12/1 scarf around the edge and relaminate at the 12/1 ration--for a strong repair.
Yes, putting up photos will help all of us--as well as you.
Tim & Dave Kinghorn
New member
To dry out the area under the cockpit floor, we inserted a vacuum cleaner hose into the inspection hole we had cut between the aft tanks and pushed it forward toward the cabin door 3-4 feet. We then hooked this to the exhaust end of a large shopvac. It took about 16 hours to dry out the area.
We had also previously used a fan driven space heater to blow hot air toward a deflector over the inspection hole about 6 inches away and thus under the cockpit floor.
Additionally, we had jacked up the front of the trailer which allowed trapped water to migrate aft. We then vacuumed out any water. It took a few days (about 4) for the area to dry, but it all worked nicely.
When we cut out the inspection holes, we routed out under the perimeter and epoxied this space so the screws holding down the inspection cover go into the epoxy and sealer.
Tim and Dave
We had also previously used a fan driven space heater to blow hot air toward a deflector over the inspection hole about 6 inches away and thus under the cockpit floor.
Additionally, we had jacked up the front of the trailer which allowed trapped water to migrate aft. We then vacuumed out any water. It took a few days (about 4) for the area to dry, but it all worked nicely.
When we cut out the inspection holes, we routed out under the perimeter and epoxied this space so the screws holding down the inspection cover go into the epoxy and sealer.
Tim and Dave
Thanks for the advice guys. I will try and take off just the top skin with a hammer and chisel. If this doesn't work then I will use a router to only take of the top skin plus however much the resin soaks in to the balsa core. I'm guessing a 1/16". I'm expecting the core to still be very good. So then I just dry and reseal.
Good point about using the router on wet balsa. It probably won't give me a clean cut. The hammer and chisel sounds good in theory but we'll se how well it works in real life.
Bob, the moisture meter I bought at Home Depot is a Ryobi pinless unit model number E49MM01. It cost $50 and was in the tool coral. I'm sure it is not as good as the more expensive units that are designed for laminates but I'm confident it will register moisture if I have it. The wall setting seams to be the most sensitive. On the masonry setting it shows 0% moisture in areas I know to be dry and 30% moisture in the water soaked areas. If it detected any moisture at all in the transom then I was going to go down to the local marina and find a good one to borrow. But now for $50 I have piece of mind that the transom and hull of my boat are fine.
Using the exhaust of a shop vac down into under the cockpit is a very good idea. That way you know the warm air is travelling to the back of the corners. I think I will try that to fully dry out under the cockpit.
I'll keep you guys posted. Hopefully I start work Sunday or Tuesday.
I sent a private message to Tyboo for a photo album. Is that all I'm supposed to do?
Thanks,
Bill
Good point about using the router on wet balsa. It probably won't give me a clean cut. The hammer and chisel sounds good in theory but we'll se how well it works in real life.
Bob, the moisture meter I bought at Home Depot is a Ryobi pinless unit model number E49MM01. It cost $50 and was in the tool coral. I'm sure it is not as good as the more expensive units that are designed for laminates but I'm confident it will register moisture if I have it. The wall setting seams to be the most sensitive. On the masonry setting it shows 0% moisture in areas I know to be dry and 30% moisture in the water soaked areas. If it detected any moisture at all in the transom then I was going to go down to the local marina and find a good one to borrow. But now for $50 I have piece of mind that the transom and hull of my boat are fine.
Using the exhaust of a shop vac down into under the cockpit is a very good idea. That way you know the warm air is travelling to the back of the corners. I think I will try that to fully dry out under the cockpit.
I'll keep you guys posted. Hopefully I start work Sunday or Tuesday.
I sent a private message to Tyboo for a photo album. Is that all I'm supposed to do?
Thanks,
Bill
Tim & Dave Kinghorn
New member
My son told me we did not have to rout out and fill between layers with epoxy as it was about a 1/4 inch thick of fiberglass and no balsa core.
We should have a picture in our album in a few days showing the location of the two inspection plates between the fuel tanks in the aft cockpit.
Tim and Dave
We should have a picture in our album in a few days showing the location of the two inspection plates between the fuel tanks in the aft cockpit.
Tim and Dave
Cutty Sark
New member
I'm not sure but when I hear hammer, chisel and boat in the same sentence it makes me nervous. When I opened up my hull I used a holesaw and pryed the skin off, but the balsa underneath was fairly rotten/soft so it was easy to do. With a more solid core it will be much tougher to get the top skin off, a hammer and chisel could work, but I would be extremly gentle. It might not hurt to post some pics of your situation first then lets see what people come up with.
Sark
Sark
Tim & Dave Kinghorn
New member
Go to the Sound Venture Album to see the picture of the two inspection plates in the aft cockpit between the fuel tanks.
Tim and Dave
http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_ ... _photo.php
Tim and Dave
http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_ ... _photo.php
I have the same deck plate installed in my boat. It is in the same location, maybe 1 or 2 inches forward. In that location the deck has a core but no center brace.
Yesterday I took my circular say and cut through the top skin of the deck in the effected area. Then I used my speed saw to connect the corners. I then took a chisel and hammer and pried off the top skin. Once I started doing this I realized I would have to take the skin off in sections. I ended up with a 12"x 4" section. The top skin did not come of clean so I then took my router and took off the top 1/8" of the substrate. This gave me a clean surface. I then realized that the coring is not balsa but foam! It is balsa wood color and has a simular texture. The substrate is 2" pieces of foam with approximately 1/8" gaps between them. It is in these gaps that the water is. The foam is dry. I used a hairdryer and fan to dry the area. The foam with no top skin is now completely dry. The areas around it have also dried out somewhat according to the moisture meter. I'm going to keep the fan running for a couple of days and see how much more moisture I can remove from the surrounding areas. Hopefully I won't have to open up more deck. I'll keep you guys posted.
Also while being paranoid and checking my boat for additional moisture with the moisture meter. I discovered that the Starboard splashwell drain has let some moisture into the transom. With the moisture meter on its most sensitive setting it shows 30% moisture. I plan on resealing this fitting. I'm not sure if I should try and dry out the transom from inside the boat or just leave it and see what happens. I don't think it's much water.
You would think that after 20-30 years of making these boats they would learn how to seal them properly. My boat is only 4 years old, only has 300 hours on it and is kept on a trailor. It is very depressing to be dealing with these problems. I guess $50,000 doesn't buy you much anymore.
Bill
PS I'm trying to get an album setup so I can post pictures. I have PM'd Tyboo and DaNag. As soon as I can I'll post pics.
Yesterday I took my circular say and cut through the top skin of the deck in the effected area. Then I used my speed saw to connect the corners. I then took a chisel and hammer and pried off the top skin. Once I started doing this I realized I would have to take the skin off in sections. I ended up with a 12"x 4" section. The top skin did not come of clean so I then took my router and took off the top 1/8" of the substrate. This gave me a clean surface. I then realized that the coring is not balsa but foam! It is balsa wood color and has a simular texture. The substrate is 2" pieces of foam with approximately 1/8" gaps between them. It is in these gaps that the water is. The foam is dry. I used a hairdryer and fan to dry the area. The foam with no top skin is now completely dry. The areas around it have also dried out somewhat according to the moisture meter. I'm going to keep the fan running for a couple of days and see how much more moisture I can remove from the surrounding areas. Hopefully I won't have to open up more deck. I'll keep you guys posted.
Also while being paranoid and checking my boat for additional moisture with the moisture meter. I discovered that the Starboard splashwell drain has let some moisture into the transom. With the moisture meter on its most sensitive setting it shows 30% moisture. I plan on resealing this fitting. I'm not sure if I should try and dry out the transom from inside the boat or just leave it and see what happens. I don't think it's much water.
You would think that after 20-30 years of making these boats they would learn how to seal them properly. My boat is only 4 years old, only has 300 hours on it and is kept on a trailor. It is very depressing to be dealing with these problems. I guess $50,000 doesn't buy you much anymore.
Bill
PS I'm trying to get an album setup so I can post pictures. I have PM'd Tyboo and DaNag. As soon as I can I'll post pics.
If the drain is metal--that will set off the moisture meter. This is one of the cautions in using a moisture meter--metal, metalic bottom paint will give false readings on a capaticance meter. If you want to be sure, then remove the drain--and visually inspect--and then confirm with the meter.
You can make a paste up with resin and filler to fill the void where you have chewed up the foam (assuming that there is some damage, and then set the glass laminate back in place.
You can make a paste up with resin and filler to fill the void where you have chewed up the foam (assuming that there is some damage, and then set the glass laminate back in place.
Thanks, Bob.
The moisture meter is reading moisture in about a 2" strip from the Starboard splashwell drain down the transom to the hull. I might drill an inspection hole into the transom from inside the boat to see how much moisture I have. I can then easily fill this hole with resin afterwards.
Making a paste with resin and filler is a good idea. I'll try that.
Bill
The moisture meter is reading moisture in about a 2" strip from the Starboard splashwell drain down the transom to the hull. I might drill an inspection hole into the transom from inside the boat to see how much moisture I have. I can then easily fill this hole with resin afterwards.
Making a paste with resin and filler is a good idea. I'll try that.
Bill
Well still no photo album so I can't post pictures. I ran the fan on the exposed area for four days. During the day I also used a hairdryer. I was trying to dry out the exposed foam and draw moisture from the rest of the deck to the dry area. Kind of like if you dry one end of a towel it will draw the moisture from the other end and dry the entire towel. Well it didn't work. After 4 days of fan and hairdryer the areas immediately around the exposed foam dropped about 5% moisture levels. At this rate it would take a year or longer.
I was reading the build photos of the new Marinaut and say they are using closed cell foam instead of Balsa coring. I think this is a good idea. They say with this foam core if water gets in you don't have to worry about rot and loosing strength. I think this is the same foam used in my cockpit floor so I have decided to close up my floor and call it good. There is no need to be proactive if the water won't cause any harm. I'm still going to try and eliminate the causes of the water leaking in but I'm not going to worry about the water in the foam core until it is a problem (hopefully never).
I'm going to take my boat to a local shipyard to have them use their moisture meter on my transom. I'll get there professional opinion and at least have a new splashwell drain put in and sealed properly.
Hopefully the new C-dorys and Marinauts are being sealed properly.
Bill
I was reading the build photos of the new Marinaut and say they are using closed cell foam instead of Balsa coring. I think this is a good idea. They say with this foam core if water gets in you don't have to worry about rot and loosing strength. I think this is the same foam used in my cockpit floor so I have decided to close up my floor and call it good. There is no need to be proactive if the water won't cause any harm. I'm still going to try and eliminate the causes of the water leaking in but I'm not going to worry about the water in the foam core until it is a problem (hopefully never).
I'm going to take my boat to a local shipyard to have them use their moisture meter on my transom. I'll get there professional opinion and at least have a new splashwell drain put in and sealed properly.
Hopefully the new C-dorys and Marinauts are being sealed properly.
Bill
I am at the beginning of this watery trail.... (2006 Cape Cruiser 23)
I'm definitely making/leaking (fresh) water somewhere, and don't know the source. There is too much for it to simply be condensation.
I don't think it's from the anchor locker since it fresh water, and any residual off the ground tackle would probably be salty.
The water is evident in the storage areas beneath the dinette (immediately forward of the water tank). I haven't checked the area beneath the galley shelving (yet) due to accessibility. ...but I'll probably get to there eventually.
My best guess so far is that I have a leak in the water tank or a related fitting. Yesterday I accidently left the water pump switch in the "on" position, thus keeping the system pressurized for nearly 24-hours. The result was considerably more water in the dinette storage area than I was used to seeing. Hmmm.... The pump is currently off, and the area was mopped-up and currently being blown-dry until the shop opens on Monday. We'll see what the situation is then. I suspect there is a "dripping" leak in one of the hose connections near the watertank, that when pressurized become a 'spirt (how's that for a technical marine engineering term?).
This morning I bought one of the Ryobi Moisture Meters at Home Depot. Haven't opened it yet - but will if I think it's necessary to isolate any saturated areas.
NOTE: Dr. Bob - I know you're reading this, so will ask here rather than in a separate email. What would your recommendation be at this point, to isolate and identify what seems to be the problem?
...I STILL Love this boat, and now that I have over a hundred hours in it; She's MINE!!
Stay Tuned.
Best,
Casey
PS: My final idea for drying-out the boat will be to trailer it back to our place in Arizona and put into my Solar Rehab facility next to my shop! That'll dry out Anything!
I'm definitely making/leaking (fresh) water somewhere, and don't know the source. There is too much for it to simply be condensation.
I don't think it's from the anchor locker since it fresh water, and any residual off the ground tackle would probably be salty.
The water is evident in the storage areas beneath the dinette (immediately forward of the water tank). I haven't checked the area beneath the galley shelving (yet) due to accessibility. ...but I'll probably get to there eventually.
My best guess so far is that I have a leak in the water tank or a related fitting. Yesterday I accidently left the water pump switch in the "on" position, thus keeping the system pressurized for nearly 24-hours. The result was considerably more water in the dinette storage area than I was used to seeing. Hmmm.... The pump is currently off, and the area was mopped-up and currently being blown-dry until the shop opens on Monday. We'll see what the situation is then. I suspect there is a "dripping" leak in one of the hose connections near the watertank, that when pressurized become a 'spirt (how's that for a technical marine engineering term?).
This morning I bought one of the Ryobi Moisture Meters at Home Depot. Haven't opened it yet - but will if I think it's necessary to isolate any saturated areas.
NOTE: Dr. Bob - I know you're reading this, so will ask here rather than in a separate email. What would your recommendation be at this point, to isolate and identify what seems to be the problem?
...I STILL Love this boat, and now that I have over a hundred hours in it; She's MINE!!
Stay Tuned.
Best,
Casey
PS: My final idea for drying-out the boat will be to trailer it back to our place in Arizona and put into my Solar Rehab facility next to my shop! That'll dry out Anything!
I have a 2006 Cape Cruiser and drilled a thru hull aft for a Mermaid air conditioner. When I was drilling the hole I went through about 2" with a 7/8' hole saw and then water start coming out. I removed the bit and a 1/4" stream erupted for about 3 or 4 minutes. I thought this would be the penetration of the pilot bit into the sump area and there was a little bit of residual water left in there. I went top side to see where the pilot bit had broken through but failed to see the bit. Perplexed I went down below the boat and finished drilling the hole. When I removed the core sample from the hole saw I noticed that there were 2 layers of laminate. One with about 1-3/4" of balsa wood and then a top layer with about 1/4" of foam, each sandwiched in about 1/4" of fiberglass. There was what seemed to be a 3/16" hole in the sump that was originally used to mount a bilge pump that was now empty and allowing rainwater into this first layer. Since the outlet for this sump area is about 1/4" higher than the floor every time it rained this 1/4" hole was a drain into this first layer.
I lowered the tongue of the trailer to force the water to the bow so I could get to it and see how much there was. I put some PVC pipe around the hole in the sump to act as a dam to keep out any additional rainwater. I have removed maybe a gallon or so of water from the bow with the soak the towel and dry it out method.
I have cut some 10X30 access hatches in the V-berth to run some AC duct and thus I have easy access to the hull. My question is at what point does this 1st layer kill into the bottom of the hull? Or at what point does the balsa core stop?
Great discussion.
I lowered the tongue of the trailer to force the water to the bow so I could get to it and see how much there was. I put some PVC pipe around the hole in the sump to act as a dam to keep out any additional rainwater. I have removed maybe a gallon or so of water from the bow with the soak the towel and dry it out method.
I have cut some 10X30 access hatches in the V-berth to run some AC duct and thus I have easy access to the hull. My question is at what point does this 1st layer kill into the bottom of the hull? Or at what point does the balsa core stop?
Great discussion.
Simplicity
New member
The saga continues- opened the forward access hole and found some water. I just removed the port fuel tank , but couldn't see any water in the small lag bolt holes.
Tim and Dave- was the water obvious? It seems hard to see down there.
Thanks Alan
Tim and Dave- was the water obvious? It seems hard to see down there.
Thanks Alan
Simplicity
New member
Bill- Since my venture is an 06 ,doesn't it sounds likely that I can put just one center inspection plate?
Does anybody know a good place to purchase these inspection plates to put in?
Jim (Jenny-Katz) ,how do I go about modifying the fuel uptake like you did?
Simplicity is a journey not a destination, but things are looking pretty complex right now.
Thanks for any info
Alan :?
Does anybody know a good place to purchase these inspection plates to put in?
Jim (Jenny-Katz) ,how do I go about modifying the fuel uptake like you did?
Simplicity is a journey not a destination, but things are looking pretty complex right now.
Thanks for any info
Alan :?