Water Under Aft Cockpit in 07 Venture

T

Tim & Dave Kinghorn

New member
When we lifted the aft gas tanks to place spacers under the tanks (to prevent corrosion), we looked down the holes where the lag bolts penetrated the upper floor and found water in the enclosed space (no flotation). We cut two access holes between the tanks and pumped out the water (it was fresh--likely rain) and dried it out.

There is a metal strip next to the cabin in the cockpit. When removed there is a caulk joint which can leak. Also, it could leak around the lag bolts.
 
Tim & Dave Kinghorn":228ogzgl said:
When we lifted the aft gas tanks to place spacers under the tanks (to prevent corrosion), we looked down the holes where the lag bolts penetrated the upper floor and found water in the enclosed space (no flotation). We cut two access holes between the tanks and pumped out the water (it was fresh--likely rain) and dried it out.

There is a metal strip next to the cabin in the cockpit. When removed there is a caulk joint which can leak. Also, it could leak around the lag bolts.
Click to expand...

Hello Tim & Dave Kinghorn,

Could you post some pictures of the holes? My Cape Cruiser was likely built the same way.

Thanks,

/david
 
Dave,
When our boat was rigged, wires, hydraulic lines were run through the starboard side lazarrette . Both covers leak so I believe rain water leaks in thru the leaky lazarette covers and into the under floor area because of the added holes in the actual lazzarette area. My port side lazzarette is a live well with an overboard drain thru the side of the boat so that is not a problem. You can check the caulking sealing the back of the cabin following the area from the gunnels down to the floor in the areas in front of the cockpit steps as they are hard to get into as they are narrow. I guess that either a sloping rear canvas or a campertop you would have no rain water. Putting a bucket or another temp cover over the larrette covers would tell you if they were the problem. Hope this helps.
D.D.
 
I can see how water could get into the lag bolts and penetrate the substructure .Is the cockpit floor honeycombed or flotation or hollow ? How did you cut in to floor with hole saw and then put in skrewin inspection plates. Maybe some pictures would help us venture guys out . I was thinking of putting some strips of starboard under gas tanks so water could flow underneath . I keep a bimini top on so not much water gets in there.

I somtimes find water under my cabinets coming from the anchor locker and from the S/S railings this I fixed a while back .
Jim
 
Under each gas tank there should be a white plastic plug that covers what was the injection hole for the flotation foam. If that plug was not sealed properly, water will leak into the raised floor. I read that some of the C-Dory 22s with the raised floor may have similar issues. I'm not sure the raised floor is a better solution than a false floor. It is better for standing on but water always seems to find a way into every nook and cranny that you don't want it to be in. I get a small amount of water into the cabin that I believe is seeping in under the Alaskan bulkhead below the raise cockpit floor. I'm considering an inspection plate back between the fuel tanks or a fish box in the floor that would serve the duel purpose of fish storage/inspection port that I could hand pump out should any water collect below the raised floor.
Forrest
 
What a nice bunch of folks. Thank you for helpful suggestions.

I would post pictures, but (1) the boat is in Washington at my son's (Tim), and I live near Sacramento. (2) I'm new to the site and have to learn how to use the various options.

There is a support spar about 2" wide by 2 1/2" deep that runs down the center line beneath the aft cockpit (ours is hull #45 from the original Venture builders). Between the two tanks and just forward of the sump and bilge pump (where the drain hole is located) is where we installed two 4" screw-in inspection covers, one on each side of the underlying stringer (spar). To miss the underlying stringer, we first drilled a pilot hole about 2" from the side of the tank and about 4" toward the stern. We inserted a bent wire to determine clearance and depth before cutting out the hole with a jig saw. Be sure to use the rubber gasket under the screw-in lid.

Our understanding was that this void between the hull bottom and the cockpit floor was filled with flotation foam, but we found none. As ours was one of the last boats they produced at this site, perhaps this was overlooked. Using the suction end of a shop-vac, we got most of the water out. We then blew hot air into the space to complete the drying

We are going to pull the gas tanks to replace the fuel pickups (as we've had the same fuel starvation problem at 2000rpm as reported by others on the forum site related to fuel lines, etc.). At that time we will look for the plugged holes where foam was to have been injected

The back is fully enclosed with canvas, but once the side curtains were off and the rain hit and put some water in the cockpit. A second event occurred when a grandson turned on the wash down spigot and emptied the water tank into the aft cockpit.

We, too, had water on the cabin floor and under the cabinets which we thought might be related to the cockpit water problem. However, in a particularly rough run, we found water was coming in around the Wallis Heater exhaust through hull and running under the cabinet and on the cabin floor. We're going to move the exhaust to a deck rather than a thru-hull fitting.
 
Same problem, same solution, mostly fixed now except it is still low in the water, and listing about an inch and a half to starboard.

Based on how weight affects the waterline, I would guess that I am looking for 20 to 25 gallons (185 lbs levels the boat, 185/8.35lbs per gallon = 22.15). This happened over the winter, while the area under the cockpit was flooded.

Except for the area under the deck, which I believe is now water free, and the little space under the shower, I can't even figure out where that much water could be.

Anyone have any ideas?

David
 
David,

My son and I are still checking out possible sources of water intrusion. But based on conversations with other Venture owners, it appears, as with c-dorys, that the chain locker is a likely source. Inside, it is not completely sealed.

As the new Marinaut by Toland is being manufactured by the same folks that built the Cape Cruisers (Ventures), I suspect that the double hull configuration planned for the Marinaut is likely similar to the Cape Cruiser series they built. If water gets into the space between the two (the hull and the cabin and cockpit floor), it can migrate from the bow to the aft area under the cabin and cockpit floors. The Marinaut proposes to have a molded one-piece floor placed over the hull bottom and fiberglassed to the sides of the hull at the water line. On the Venture we have, there is a caulked joint where the cockpit floor meets the cabin where water can gain an entrance. An additional major source would be the tank bolts that penetrate. the cockpit floor. Note the new marinaut proposes to embed an aluminum plate in the floor and bolt into this instead of lag bolting through. We are going to use 1/2" 2x4 piece of aluminum and epoxy it over the old bolt holes plus fiberglass tape. We will then thread holes into the aluminum plate and use short bolts to hold the tank in place (1/2" plastic wood spacers will be placed under the tank for support, ventilation and corrosion control).

We are going to put an additional inspection port on both sides of the aft door in the cockpit area (we have two aft between the two tanks). This will allow us to dry and ventilate the under cockpit area. This will also allow us to to determine if the space under the cabin floor continues into the under cockpit floorspace. If so, we will add an inspection port in the forward cabin area to allow us to monitor this space for future water intrusion. For example if a rock or log cracked the hull, you could have water in this space and not know it unless you weighed the boat.

Tim and Dave Kinghorn
 
I also have water under my cockpit on my 07 Venture. I also have water in the balsa coring of the cockpit floor. I first suspected water under the cockpit floor when I was working in the boat and it was raining outside. I noticed water leaking onto the cabin floor from the bulkhead. It was leaking from below the aft cockpit floor level. So I guessed that water was leaking under the cockpit floor some how and then leaking through the bulkhead through a pin hole leak.

But I also had water under my Vberth area. In the past I dried this out and sealed the bottom of my anchor locker and anchor locker drain hole. But after this I still was getting water under my Vberth somehow. So after I noticed water leaking into the cabin from under the cockpit floor I suspected that the water may be leaking from under the cockpit floor, under the cabin and then into the Vberth area. To test this I dried out under the Vberth completely then flooded the cockpit with 1" of water and waited. As expected water started to leak on to the cabin floor and about 10 minutes later water started collecting under the Vberth and creeping forward.

I also get small amounts of water under my fridge and Port rear seat areas.

To deal with this I drilled a 4.5" hole in the cockpit floor between the two fuel tanks. To my surprise the balsa coring was wet. I don't mean moist but WET! I was expecting to find the area under the cockpit floor to be filled with water but only found small amounts of water. I have since pulled the Starboard fuel tank and found that water is leaking into my balsa coring from the plug in the floor under the tank. This area of the floor is also sagging. I may also have a leak at the very rear of the floor where it is glassed to the transom. It appears that the glass that was used to connect the floor to the transom didn't fully adhere to the floor. Sealing these two areas with epoxy will hopefully cure my leaks but what do I do about my wet balsa core? I'm hoping that I can slowly dry it out with out having to tear into it. Any advice?

Also on my boat I have several hairline stress cracks on the port and starboard edges of the cockpit floor. These appear to be from using too much resin and not enough glass. I suspect that water can leak through these and under the cockpit floor also. I was planing on trying to seal them with epoxy also unless someone else has a better idea.

Now I'm paranoid about my transom. I've always looked at the transom drain hole and wondered how well it was sealed. By looking at it I can tell they didn't oversize the hole and use epoxy. Also when I installed my trimtabs I just used 4200 I didn't oversize the holes and seal with epoxy. I may now redo the trimtabs.

I have read about moisture meters that can be used to tell if you have water in the coring of your transom or hull. Does anyone know about these? How accurate are they and what do they cost?

Thanks,
Bill
 
Many "floatation" foams will become saturated with water, even though they are susposed to be closed cell...if so there is significant weight added to the boat.

Unfortunately very few, if any boats are properly built with sealing holes in cored structures. The builders take short cuts, Doing this properly takes time and makes a competative priced boat cost more. Unfortunate, but true.

As for removal of moisture in the core--very difficult to do with any usual drying techniques. I was down at the shipyard recently and one of the crews I often use, finally purchased a Hot Vac system. There was a Kadey Krogen 40 which is cored with a "closed cell foam"--and they had been drying with tenting, heaters and dehumidifiers for 6 months, after a peel of the outer layers of the glass. The Hot Vac brings the moisture out fairly quickly--if you have an extra $25,000 laying around.... This also takes time and costs because of the sealant used.

As for moisture meters--they are good tools if properly used. They are best used in solid cored boats, and after the boat has dryed for some time. Bottom paints and metals will give false readings. The cheapest type--capaticance, are fairly in-expensive--but I would borrow a good one, rather than buy a cheap one designed for lumber. If you have an interest, then read David Pascoe's article: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/moisture_meters.htm
David is a bit controversial, but I find a lot of truth in his writings.

The best "solution" for a cored structure, is to replace the core which is wet--especially in our sized boats with limited core damage. Larger boats, need peel, hot vac and drying, then relamination. Neither is cheap or easy. That is why I advocate properly sealing before there is a problem.
 
Best Day,
The balsa core should be totally encapsulated with fiberglass according to the person who built the boats. Are you sure you're looking at the balsa core? You might be looking at the foam that was injected into the void between the floor and the hull.
Forrest
 
Yes I'm sure it's the balsa core. After working on the boat yesterday it appears that the water was leaking down the improperly sealed deck plug under the Starboard fuel tank. This was definitely the source of the water into the core and possibly water under the cockpit. The core is wet about one foot in all directions around the plug. Interestingly the aproximately 12" of deck aft of the plug is just 1/4" of fiberglass without coring. This area has sagged and pools water. So I'm really just talking about 2 square feet of area with wet coring. So my options are just leave it and deal with it in 5-10 years when it becomes a problem? Or cut off the top layer of fiberglass, rip out the coring, recore it and then top with fiberglass? Is this correct? Since this area is under the fuel tank I think I could do the job myself and not worry about what the end product looked like.

On my boat I didn't have a brace running down the center of the cockpit floor. They must have added this to later builds. How do I tell what build number my boat is? I took delivery of it in June of 2006 as a 2007 model.

Bill
 
Hi Bob, I just read the article you linked to. It is very informative. You say that moisture meters are only reliable on solid cored boats. What does this mean? Will they work on my boat?

Also I know you recommend borrowing a good moisture meter but will a $50 unit from Sears or Home Depot be good enough to let me know if fittings or transom screws are sealed correctly? I don't need the best meter on the market just something to tell me yes this screw is sealed fine or no it is leaking I need to reseal it.

Thanks,
Bill
 
On the Cape Cruiser Look at the hull numbers on the rear starboard side
Example GXG 23 001 A6 07

GXK = Cape Cruiser Boats

23 or 26 = 23ft or 26 ft model

001-065? not sure exactly how many were built for model year 06-07

A6 This would have been built in January of 06 A-L Jan- Dec.

07 year this is the model Year
 
I would not leave it until later as it could continue to migrate further. Since your boat is fairly new is the balsa rotten or just wet? If you can get a fan and point it in the hole to get some circulation and help dry out the area, maybe even a bit of heat. That would be my first action, see if you can dry it out and then decide how to proceed. I remember worrying about the floor in my 22 as it was the first CD with a cockpit floor molded in, and I had no idea what was underneath it as far as wood or construction.

Sark
 
So my boat is number 29 built May of 06 as an 07 model. So the cockpit brace was added after number 29 sometime. If anyone else wants to add a deckplate on a number 29 hull or earlier you should be able to drill one hole in the center between the gas tanks. I now have one off center add was thinking about drilling another next to it just so it looks better.

The balsa core is still very good. I can barely dent it with my fingernail. I was thinking that since it slowly soaked into the wood that maybe I could slowly dry it out. I have had a hairdryer stuck in the hole I cut for the deckplate for the past couple of days. This is drying out under the cockpit floor. My plan is in the future when the boat is on the trailer to open up the deckplate under the portapotti and on the cockpit to keep things dry.

I was thinking that by using a hairdryer or fan pointed at the hole I cut for the deckplate and the new larger hole I driller where the plug was under the fuel tank that I could somewhat dry out the balsa core. If I didn't seal the edge of the hole cut for the deckplate and continually ran a hairdryer on low would it slowly dry out the core? Again I'm only talking about 2 square feet of wet core.

I bought a $50 moisture meter at HomeDepot. I'm going to see if it detects the wet core area of the cockpit floor. If it works I'm going to see if I have any water in my transom. I figure if the meter doesn't work I can return it. It says it detects moisture "up to" 1/2" deep.

Bill
 
Best Day":1jz0klqn said:
Yes I'm sure it's the balsa core. After working on the boat yesterday it appears that the water was leaking down the improperly sealed deck plug under the Starboard fuel tank. This was definitely the source of the water into the core and possibly water under the cockpit. The core is wet about one foot in all directions around the plug. Interestingly the aproximately 12" of deck aft of the plug is just 1/4" of fiberglass without coring. This area has sagged and pools water. So I'm really just talking about 2 square feet of area with wet coring. So my options are just leave it and deal with it in 5-10 years when it becomes a problem? Or cut off the top layer of fiberglass, rip out the coring, recore it and then top with fiberglass? Is this correct? Since this area is under the fuel tank I think I could do the job myself and not worry about what the end product looked like.

On my boat I didn't have a brace running down the center of the cockpit floor. They must have added this to later builds. How do I tell what build number my boat is? I took delivery of it in June of 2006 as a 2007 model.

Bill
Click to expand...

Hello Bill,

Have you pulled the PORT fuel tank to see if the same problem is on that side? I definitely need to take a look at this on my boat. Thanks for posting and please keep us informed of your solution/s.

/david
 
It only takes a very small hole for water (liquid) to work its way into a core. That has to be removed as a vapor--and is far more difficult than getting it into the core in the first place. Can you dry it out completely with the hair dryer? Perhaps, but don't seal it up until it is dry. I would be worried about leaving a hair dryer on in that confined space. I don't know how much heat yours puts out. My wife will not let me use hers, so I have an assortment of heat guns. These put out more heat than you want to leave concentrated on a fiberglass laminate. In the past I have used heat lamps to dry out materials. Not sure if you can even get them like the old type still. Again, you have to be careful and monitor the temperature carefully.

The moisture meter you probably got for $50 is probably a pin type, and will work on wood or concrete, but is not designed for measurement in fiberglass laminate. If you drill holes in the outer glass, and insert the pins into the wood (balsa) that will give you the moisture reading of the wood, at that specific point. Two square feet of saturated laminate is a fairly good sized area. The core is used to stiffen the hull or deck. If it is just in the deck, there is no risk to the boat's intregrity, and down the line, if the deck brakes (see the photos of the boat I restored) you can then replace the entire deck--we found that the water from a few screw holes, which became a crack later, traveled to several feet from the point of water intrusion by wicking).

A good moisture meter designed for fiberglass laminates runs from $350 to $750--and are much more suitable for laminates. A cored structure, may or may not read high, depending on many factors--including the meter, the thickness of gel coat, the thickness of laminate, the amount of moisture in the laminate and in the core etc.

I don't think that you can go wrong by trying to dry out the core. Long Beach (where I spent most of my life) is more humid that the desert--but not as humid as the Gulf Coast, and I doubt that just ambient climate will be enough to dry the area. I just don't think that you will get the core dry enough to prevent damage down the line. Balsa is a "hard wood" by the definition of the short cells (even though it is physically soft). This means that the water migrates outside of the cells, even though they are short. Water can still wick a long way into a core, it it has been standing on the laminate for some time.
 
Our cape cruiser (2006 ) had water accumulating under the cabin seats in 2007.Three rivers marine said they fixed a leak at the anchor locker drain and we haven't noticed water since. Now this post has me wondering about other leaks.The only way to determine if I have a leak is to remove the fuel tanks or drill a hole in the deck near the stern?Anyone have an idea how common these leaks are? Alan
 
Simplicity, the easiest way to check for any leaks is to pull the plug that is under your portapotti in the Vberth. If there is water under that then you have a leak somewhere in your boat. It could be from the anchor locker, cockpit or anywhere really. If you haven't notices water or the smell of mold then I wouldn't worry about it. I just got unfortunate and had bad sealant on the plug in my cockpit.

The moisture meter I bought uses pads to detect moisture not pins. It has four different settings and is designed to use on wood, walls or masonry. On the masonry setting it detects the moisture I have in the cockpit floor with the saturated core and doesn't in the good areas. Using this I have checked the rest of my including the transom. The transom and hull appear to be dry (Thank God). It also picks up moisture under the cabin floor right as you walk into the cabin and under the Vberth. Under the Vberth is the moist foam that it is picking up. I also believe that is what it is picking up under the cabin floor.

I've thought about the soaked core under the cockpit and I think I will try and fix it myself. Thataway or anyone else that is knowledgeable on this have any ideas on how to do it? My novice plan is to speed saw the outline of the affected area and then use a router to take off the top 1/2" approximately. This will leave about 1/2" of balsa core left plus the 1/8" of glass under that. I will then dry this area for a week or two with a hairdryer and fan (or however long it takes to dry the balsa). Then I will lay a couple of layers of fiberglass on top of this. I don't need to worry about how the final product looks since it will be covered by the fuel tank.

Questions:

Will I be able to dry the balsa with the end grain exposed and a hairdryer? Or should I just remove all the affected balsa core?

I would really like to just take care of this problem now while it is small and hasn't spread to a larger area of the cockpit.

Advice?

Bill
 
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