Venture 23 vs Cruiser 22

M

mcatan2468

New member
I am new to C-Brats. Very close to purchasing a new boat. I am guessing this topic has been covered in the past but don't know where to find it. My question is: What are major differences and advantages in the two boats? 23 Venture or 22 Cruiser
 
To me the important difference is that the 23 has 4" more beam, a slightly larger cockpit, and slightly more deadrise.

For performance, this means the boat can carry a larger motor, and thus can go slightly faster. The ride is slightly better in head seas.

Any of these boats are a little different than the usual deep V hull. They are flat and tend to pound, going into seas, unless you put the bow down. My feeling is that both benefit from both trim tabs and Permatrim foils on the motor.
 
Bob hit the main points, a couple of more differences (as observed from being on new models at dealers / boat shows this year, if you are buying new) are the $25k price difference and slightly higher quality of finish, for example cabin head liner and fully lined hull with foam insulation in the Venture, although the finish of the current generation of 22' from NMI is also very good. Of course the 23 is also heavier and uses a larger trailer, if towing is a consideration.
 
MikeR mentioned it, but: towing considerations. I almost bought a 23 (deal didn't work out) but ended up with a 22. As it turns out I'm lucky because while the 22 works really well with all of my chosen tow vehicles, the extra 1,000# or so (towing weight) of the 23 wouldn't have worked well at all (for me). It just crosses a divide that separates certain classes of tow rigs. That may or may not be a thing for you depending on your towing/tow rig plans.
 
Not all of us feel that a headliner and vinyl interior is a plus. There has been mold in the foam backer and on the vinyl, and there has been delimitation of the surface vinyl from the foam, and the foam come unglued from the fiberglass.

One nice thing about the traditional spartan interior is that one can turn a hose on it after a trip and wash it out. I personally feel that the fiberglass finish is easier to clean.

Both are good boats. The Venture came about in a circuitous way, involving previous owners of C Dory, a non disclosure clause, a court judgement, and the molds went to the then owner of the C Dory company. I am not sure who owns the molds now, but they are used by NorthWestern Marine.
 
Having owned both boats Likes and dislikes
23
larger cockpit 4 chairs vs 2
bigger fuel tanks 30vs 25gallons
fiberglass interior although now they all have the fiberglass finish
Much better ride in head sea
bigger bed
faster cruising speed 20 mph-25 mph vs 16 mph-20 mph
higher gunnel all around cockpit

dislikes
Extra 500lb -1000lb difference
May need bigger engine We have the merc115 CT plenty of power
More cost bigger trailer

What sold me was the cockpit space and ride and if you don't gussy it up it's very comparable to the cd 22
t
 
When the cc23 first came out I test road one for a friend and then wrote up what I thought about it. I would like to review that after all this time and having fished on another friends cc23 a lot the last year. But I jut spent a hour looking for it. Searching forums is not my skill set. some help please.
 
Tom,
I ran thru your posts and "Cape Cruiser" thru Sept 2007 (about the time that Cape Cruiser/Venture was finally "accepted" into the C Dory family. (Including some very long and painful memory-posts, which happened before then). I did not find a specific review of a sea trial, but a number of comments on the CC 23. Do you remember the time frame when you did the sea trial?
 
I haven't been underway in a CC23, but have spent some time on a Marinaut 21. If (and that's an "if") the CC23 hull shape is more similar to the Marinaut 21, then I'd say it goes through the water a bit nicer than a 22, and likely has a bit more reserve buoyancy in the stern.

That makes it sound like the 23 is a no-brainer (and it probably is, hull-shape-wise), but there are some nice things about the 22 as well. I think it's a bit cuter (more of the classic little boat that could look, plus I think the side windows look better), the galley is, I believe a smidge longer, the tow weight, and just the VW bus simplicity factor. On the other hand the CC23 has the hull shape, slightly wider side decks (not sure that matters as they are all narrow), slightly larger foredeck, slightly larger cockpit, and maybe nicer splashwell/platform area (?).

I don't believe the 23 ever came with the marine ply interior, if that matters to you (CC23 has molded interior as do later 22's).

If you are buying used - and unless any/some of the above is/are either a must-have or a deal breaker - then you may end up with whichever you find that's in the condition/location you like.

Like you, I'd be looking into the differences and similarities before buying.
 
We had a 2008 Venture that came with a fully insulated interior. We had a 150 hp Yamaha four stroke the boat could easily cruise a 27 to 30 mph in fairly smooth conditions. It came with standard storage under the V berth cushions with hatches on the sides an the center front storage area had a large Starboard type cover. We added a rooftop air conditioner and a windless. We had a Permatrim and an Autopilot. We did not have any issues with the interior but we always kept an electric heater in the cabin to prevent the mold. With out an insulated interior condensation will form in certain conditions and will drop on you head while in the V berth. and is particularly uncomfortable after spending that kind of money.The actual Ventures of that era came standard hot water heater, galvanic isolator, interior window covers and side curtains. They had two 120 volt GFI outlets with a shore power set up with a battery charger. Plus a couple 12volt DC outlet plug sockets. They had large step type boxes that made getting on and off a lot easier than a 22' cruiser. A swim platform with ladder. They were not as sensitive to weight as much as the 22's. They had a nice steering wheel with a tilt helm and you could have the passenger side dinette set to face forward or towards the table. Our loaded trailer weight was about 5500 pounds on a tandem dual axle Float On trailer with electric over hydraulic Kodiak disc brakes. We live in Pa and trailered the boat to Grand Teton Jackson lake, Yellowstone Lake and Flaming Gorge. It was also make from Maine to Florida and the Bayville Wisconsin to see the Apostle islands on Lake Superior.
We staying campgrounds along the way. It was a great boat an we lived on it for a month at a time numerous trips to the Florida Keys for month long stays during the winter months. We only sold it because we wanted to spend more time on the boat and wanted some more amenities that would make our longer stays more comfortable. For my wife a bathroom was high on her list but we managed fine with a upgraded porta potty with a 5 gallon waste tank instead of the standard 2.5 gallon waste tank.We cruised with 22's and the extra cockpit room was nice to have. We had a full camper top enclosure that made for an extra room that was rain tight.
I don't know what is really standard on the new Venture boats but I would want the same features if you were going travel on land and cruise with it as we did. We thought the boat was worth the extra dollars and we felt the Venture boats were really an evolution of the 22' cruisers. Most of which required do it yourself projects to try and remedy their short comings. The 22's are a little cuter if that really matters. Look at Will-C's photo album.
I loved that boat.
D.D.
 
Bob- I dont remember when it was. One of the old member, Young guy from kenmore, was looking to buy the cc23 or a 22. He had a defincae but it was messed up and he forced them to take it back. He asked me to test ride the boat and we meet the factor people at a ramp in the south sound. Great boat. I did write a review of my thoughts at the time.

About the hull. The hull is more then just a foot longer or a little more bow. The main difference to me in the hulls is the amount of sq ft touching the water. The 22 ,as you come from the bow to the stern, gets wider at the mid section and then narrow again. This causes a few things to happen. The stern drops into its own wake. That is why we all have to have trim taps to lift it up in the ass. Remember that this was a boat desined for a 70 2 stroke motor and that has really not changed. Its also why the boat is effected by the transfer of weight in the cabin ( at the widest point ). You have more leverage at the wide point then you do at the stern and this makes the boat a little tippy as people move around. Its the same problem I have on my 27 to a point. The CC23 widens out from the bow to the mid point in the hull and then keeps that width for the rest of the hull. This creates a lot of lift that makes for a more stable boat as you move around. It also creates more lift that allows for better mpg numbers. That lift also keeps the bow down more as you accelerate. You need far less trim tap on a cc23. I have spent the last two years fishing out of Troys cc23 a lot. Its a faster, better handling, smoother ride that gets better economy then a cd22. And the amount of room for fishing and sitting is noticeable. That said I still do not like the glass interior but I can live with it.

What I really like about the boat is the head room and being able to see out the windows while standing up or driving. I can not see out the side windows of a 22 more then 50 yards and some times not even that far. I can not stoop to look out, it kills my neck.

If I was in the market for a 22 or a 23 the 23 wins all day long. other then being more cute, which the 22 is, I see no advantage to it at all. the 23 does every thing the 22 does and more and does it better. I still loved the time I spent on my 22 and the 1800 hours I put on it in 5 years, but the cc23 is a better boat .
 
Most every difference has already been covered well. I'll add that the new Ventures can be purchased as a "Sport" Model which has the fiberglass interior of the 22 and lacks the extras of the older 23's. Check out Sportcraft Marina website for pictures of the newer layout of the 23 Sport.

As for performance, ride quality, and handling, the 23 performs better than either our 22 or 25 but Helen misses the head and shower in the 25.
 
I can see plusses and minuses to both. As you say, the hull design has more reserve buoyancy aft (presumably it's similar to the Marinaut 21 that way). That's good for modern heavy/large engines and gear. And the sight lines in the cabin are different, as you mention. Which is preferable depends on your height, to some extent.

I'd love to have the "magic carpet" ride of the 23, but on the other hand I would greatly dislike the hidden areas (such as how water gets under the cockpit/cabin sole). These things can be dealt with (which I can do), but having dealt with similar things in other boats, I love not having to even think about it. Virtually no hidden areas in my 22 (no hull liners, no permament "soles", etc.). But then I'm sure other people love those features and wouldn't trade. To each their own.

Will-C obviously loved his CC (and why not), but he often advocates towing with a 3/4 ton diesel truck. Not that you "need" one for a CC23, but perhaps it was a bit more comfortable given the extra 1,000# or so towing weight over the 22. But again, this may not matter at all to some folks - it all depends. Maybe you plan on a large truck anyway, already have one, don't tow, or are happy towing it with something smaller.

A lot also depends on what you can find and when and where you want to find it (if shopping used).

As in most things, I'd like to "cut and paste" for the perfect boat:

The "little boat that could" looks of the 22 (yep, I care - boats are functional beauty to me :D).
The simplicity of the 22, both inside and out ("walls," cockpit sole, cabin sole, etc. on my vintage).
The sub-5,000# towing weight of the 22.
The fact that a 90hp works just fine (I only have ~75 now; still fine).
The slightly longer galley on the 22.
The "stick built" interior on the 22 (my vintage)

The hull shape of the 23, with the more reserve buoyancy aft.
The slightly larger cockpit on the 23.
Maybe the splashwell on the 23 (would have to experience it).
The larger foredeck on the 23 (haven't been on it, but I imagine it's nice).

There you have it, my personal cut-and-paste :D I imagine everyone's would be slightly different.

Maybe they are getting closer now, but for me (used) the lower price of the 22 was a bonus. Lots left over to do whatever I wanted with vs. a similar 23 (at that time). I also have other things in my life than boating (now), and I feel less negative about laying up a less costly boat while I do other things. I don't know where the "line" is (for me, much less for anyone else) between that feeling and the feeling that it's worth too much to just leave in the boat shed while I do other things. It's somewhere, but I guess I wouldn't know exactly where until I felt it.

To summarize my opinion, there is no clear best - it all depends on your priorities and preferences. The two boats are more similar than different, in the grand scheme of boat designs (but details and preferences are still important).
 
Tom's post about the hull form, rang a bell for me. The semi dory will tend to have a narrower width waterline aft--and will have better fuel mileage, especially at displacement speeds.

I looked at the C Dory web site to compare what they had. Remember that few of us can achieve what is in all of these "test" specs. But it was revealing:

Venture 23, with single 150:

RPM GPH MPH MPG NMPH NMPG Range
1000 0.71 4.5 6.31 3.05 5.48 379
1500 1.14 4.71 4.15 6.2 3.61 249
2000 1.69 7.7 4.56 6.93 3.96 274
2500 2.64 9.6 3.64 8.78 3.16 218
3000 4.01 13.8 3.44 11.5 2.99 206
3500 5.35 19.5 3.64 15.4 3.16 218
4000 6.42 24.9 3.88 19.3 3.37 233
4500 7.68 29.8 3.87 23.5 3.37 233
5000 9.6 32.9 3.42 26 2.98 205
5500 13.1 35.6 2.72 28.7 2.36 163
6000 16.0 42.5 2.65 32.1 2.3 159

The C Dory 22 with twin 40's

RPM GPH MPH M/Gal
3,000 1.75 10.9 4.98
3,500 3.00 15.0 5.01
4,000 4.50 18.7 5.34
4,500 4.20 22.5 5.35
5,000 4.90 26.0 5.31
5,500 6.75 29.4 4.35
6,000 7.80 31.1 3.98

Boattest.com C Dory with single 90

RPM MPH Knots GPHMPG NMPGStat. Mile NM
1000 3.9 3.3 0.5 7.7 6.7 347
1500 5.2 4.5 0.8 6.9 6.0 312
2000 6.6 5.7 1.1 6.0 5.2 270
2500 7.5 6.5 1.9 4.1 3.5 182
3000 9.4 8.1 2.2 4.4 3.8 196
3500 14.2 12.3 3.2 4.5 3.9 203
4000 19.1 16.6 5.0 3.8 3.3 171
4500 24.7 21.5 7.0 3.6 3.1 160
5000 27.4 23.8 8.1 3.4 2.9 152
5500 30.9 26.9 9.1 3.4 3.0 154
6100 32.9 28.6 9.6 3.5 3.0 155

Distill out of this at the Venture 23 at 1000 RPM, is going 4,5 mph, 5.48 mpg.range 379 miles @ 3500 RPM is going 19.5 mph, getting 3.64 miles a gallon and range of 218 miles. At 4000 RPM, Venture 23 is going 24.9 mph 3.88 mpg, with a range of 233 miles.

The 22, with twin 40's at 3500 RPM 15 mph, and 5.01 mpg At 4,000 RPM, 18.5 mph, 5,34 mpg and at 4500, 22 mph, 5.35 mpg

The 22 with single 90 hp at at 1000 RPM, going 3.9 mph, fuel 7,7 mpg, range 347 miles @ 3500 RPM is 14.2 mph, 4,5 mpg, range of 203 miles, @ 4,000 RPM is 19.1 mph, and 3.8 mpg, and range of 171 miles at 4500 is 24.7 mph, 3.6 mpg and range of 160 miles.

It would appear that the best "Mileage" of the 23 is somewhere between 0.7 miles to 1.5 miles per gallon less than the 22...(although the range may be more). We have to understand the issues, with "fuel tests"--and even those which we get. Lots of variables, including engine size and weight, But experience with other boats and similar design perimeters tend to bear this out. So fuel efficiency, is one other factor to consider. The old saying "your milage may vary", certainly holds true here.

For us, it was the difference in cost, and availability of a 23 when we bought our second 22.
 
funny I just read your chart and I see the cd22 single 90 at 24.7 mph getting 3.6 mpg

cc23 at 24.9 mph getting 3.88 mpg.

I guess we see what we want.

And in the 1500 hours on my honda 90 I never got these numbers for mpg.

another example.

cc23 at 19.5 mph 3.64 mpg
cd22 at 19.1 mph 3.30 mpg
 
Tom,
Good point!
Not "my charts"-- The first two are from C Dory site, "Performance numbers", and the 3rd is from "Boat Test.com".

When I started, I had no idea what I would find.

I was pointing out the "best" mpg numbers. You are also correct, that "we see what we are looking for"..which was the "best" at a cruising speed. You are correct that at ~24 mph, by single 90 tables the 23 does better--C Dory 23 burning 6.42 gal per hour and the 22 burning 7 gal per hour.

However, if you look at the twin 40's the number at 26 mph is 5.51 mpg, and burning 4.90 gallons an hour--

Again,"you see what you want to see!" :)

Another point is that there are wide disparities on the fuel consumption of the boats depending on who is doing the test. I have only owned the 22, and never seem to get the 5+ mpg. except at displacement speed, in the C Dory web site test. But both of the top two are one ones quoted by C Dory...

I am often more interested in the range. If you believe the twin 40's test, then the range would be 48 gal x 5.31=255-26=229 miles, vs 233 miles for the 23. (but doing the calculations for the 23 they did not use a 10% reserve...for some reason. ?? That would have given the 23 a realistic range of 211 miles. (I used 48 gal, because my boat will take 48 gallons. when completely empty--meaning that my tanks are close to 50 gallons total. 22's have a wide variation of the size of fuel tanks.

Thanks, Tom.
 
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