V-Berth condensation: foam

W

willronco

New member
Hello all!

We've begun fighting the good fight against v-berth condensation. I read through several VERY informative threads on condensation and have decided to start our fight with 1/4" thick closed cell (neoprene) foam:

http://www.amazon.com/Sponge-Neoprene-W ... _hi_text_y

I have a sample of it at home, and it does indeed have an adhesive backing. Does anyone out there have experience with installing or removing it? I'm concerned that it either won't stick correctly and I'll be constantly fighting the foam peeling off the v-berth walls, or that it will stick so well that I'll never be able to remove it.

I welcome any advice or pointers!
Thanks, Will
 
A couple of comments:

1) I can't speak directly to the adhesive on that product, but I would use something like 202 Solvent Wash to de-wax the interior "walls" of the V-berth. Even though that is not the molded side of the gelcoat, I think there may have been some wax used in the curing process (and at least mold-release wax can easily still linger on a hull after years of immersion!). If you do this, use plenty of clean towels, as they recommend, plus proper protective gear (respirator, etc.).

2) How does the neoprene smell and do you dislike it? I mention that because the neoprene wetsuits, sprayskirts, etc. I have still smell "like neoprene" even years later. I sort of like the occasional whiff that means something like "Yes, going diving!" -- but not sure I would want to sleep next to it every night. Perhaps not all neoprene is the same in this.
 
I would suggest using a product specifically designed for marine applications such as FlexForm. http://upholsterysupplyonline.com/produ ... -Wide.html

For adhesive us 3M 98 or higher, start at the top and work your way down. This stuff will stretch even around bolt heads and any uneven surface. More details in my photo album sub album man cave. http://www.c-brats.com/modules.php?set_ ... _album.php

We cruise Prince William Sound from early April through the end of September; condensation is virtually nonexistent in the v-birth.
 
A number of years ago, a friend gave me enough 5/8 thick neoprene to do the entire interior of a 38 foot sailboat. (it would have been thousands of dollars, but this was left over from a commercial job, and could not be resold) We used a product which was similar, if not identical to the 3M 98 adhesive--and it worked very well. We also put in a very thin laminate, which was used on airplane interiors (courtesy of Douglas surplus shop). This made a great hull liner. However there was no problem with the odor of us: however it was almost a year before we cruised the boat after the application of the interior.

It seems that this 1/4" neoprene is going to be quite expensive, at about $25 a foot, 54" wide--I have never calculated how much it would cost. The carpet type as noted by breausaw is one option. I have used a closed cell PVC foam--I don't see it currently, but it was used by Bayliner in the past which was about 1/8" thick. There are also a number of other headliner materials, which also insulate. Most materials are $25 or less a yard, and some are as wide as 72".

When I had a black neoprene material, I wanted to face it--there are also number of other materials you can use for facing it, but that also will raise the cost.

If you go with this contact type of material, I would do several small area tests, including just the contact adhesive, and spraying the 3 M 98 on the surface, plus the adhesive on the back of the neoprene. I suspect that the latter will be your best choice.
 
You might look into an ensolite type product if you don't have the neoprene ordered already. I believe Armacell is one, but there are many. I have had fiberglass campers insulated with it (from the builder) and it had no odor. For the campers it was skinned over with a white vinyl type layer on the inside, but no-one re-doing theirs was able to find it with that skin anymore. However, people regularly painted the inside surface of the ensolite and reported success.

I agree that some sort of contact cement or similar spray would probably work well. I'm trying to remember what I used for the ensolite. It was "stronger" than the 3M 77... maybe it was the 98. It sprays out in sort of a "net" fashion and is like contact cement spray.
 
The one thing that stops me from something like the Sailrite product is that I'm reasonably certain it is open-celled foam. Ensolite and similar are closed-cell (which I prefer on a boat). Which isn't to say that others might not really like the Sailrite product - just commenting on a possible difference from neoprene or ensolite type products.
 
Good point Sunbeam. I was originally looking for a closed cell, ensolite type product when we discovered the Sailrite stuff. My unscientific theory is that once the fiberglass hull is insulated, there is no longer a temperature differential for the moisture laden air to condense on. We have not experienced any v-berth moisture since installing it. I think that's why even a material like carpet that readily absorbs moisture can work well. The Sailrite material does have a vynal face on the interior side which makes it easy to keep clean.
 
Lucky Day":2ngt85x1 said:
Sunbeam,
How about the short course for laymen on closed cell v. open cell?
Click to expand...

Quickie fill-in:

Closed cell foam has its air bubbles closed off from each other and also to the surrounding air. If you squeeze it, it doesn't compress much at all. Moisture cannot get into and out of it. Makes good life preservers, shock absorber material, and insulation gaskets, for example.

Open cell foam allows air to pass from air bubble/chamber to air bubble/chamber. Moisture can also move around in it. Compresses easily, since the air can vacate the cells. Makes a good sponge, but not a good life preserver!

These two materials also vary a lot in density and other properties (like heat insulation ability) based on the kind of rubber/plastic they're made of and how much air is entrained in them.

Hope this helps!

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Thanks for the excellent tips and suggestions, everyone! I will be sure to try a couple of different kinds of foam and adhesive in small patches. Sure enough, the neoprene does smell like a wetsuit - I hadn't even considered that.

I've ordered a sample of ensolite foam and will test it for smelliness and adhesive-ness.

I'm also now considering an insulating paint such as Mascoat delta-t. Decisions, decisions! I'll keep the forum posted on any results I find!

Thanks again,
Will
 
Sunbeam":1riae9ln said:
... plus proper protective gear (respirator, etc.).
Click to expand...

Sunbeam,

With all the different respirators out there, can you suggest one to use that is all purpose. I assume one would use a respirator with filters to protect against organic vapours (i.e. solvents, paints, contact cements etc.). Would this also double as a filtrate for dust particles from sanding fibreglass, uncured epoxy etc.? What is your preference?

Thanks,
Grazer
 
I'm still thinking about this, but I'm thinking a perfect insulation material for cabin walls might just have three or more layers to it:

Starting at the outermost layer next to the fiberglass and working inward:

1. Relatively thick closed cell foam for pure heat insulation.

2. A somewhat thinner layer of open cell foam to absorb and then release some moisture, giving the overall cabin a bit of resilliant / dynamic moisture control and sound insulation (sound insulation would be better with open cell foam). This layer would also absorb and then release odors, not a good feature near the galley or head, however.

3. A cleanable dressy layer of fabric to dress up the appearance of the insulation and allow for easy clean up in the long run.

Obviously, this concept will work out in different forms for a ritzy cabin cruiser versus a working commercial fishing boat!

(When I wake up in my Sea Ray looking at the headliner, I wonder at first whether I've met my final end and I'm boxed up inside a casket with all the trimmings on the door! :lol:

Joe. :teeth :thup
 
Grazer":7emjz3m4 said:
With all the different respirators out there, can you suggest one to use that is all purpose. I assume one would use a respirator with filters to protect against organic vapours (i.e. solvents, paints, contact cements etc.). Would this also double as a filtrate for dust particles from sanding fibreglass, uncured epoxy etc.? What is your preference?
Click to expand...

Good question and I fully support people interested in a respirator when working around boats :thup I can give you some information based on my experience. (Synopsis at bottom below asterisks.) Essentially, there two main types that I know of. One is "supplied air" and one is just "air you breathe in from the atmosphere through the filter." The former type are necessary for certain catalyzed paints (such as two part LPU's), but would be nice for anything. However they are more expensive and not as "limber" to move around in. I don't spray catalyzed two-part paints, so I have always used the "non supplied air" type and have no direct user experience with the supplied air type.

So, in the non-supplied-air type, there are the basic paper white masks. I don't use these so can't comment. Then moving up there are the semi-disposable types (they look like a "good" respirator but don't have replaceable cartridges). I used one of these at a job for occasional use (it was supplied to me) but didn't like the fit as much as my own (better) ones with the replaceable cartridges.

The next step up are the ones you can replace the cartridges on. These come in a variety of face-mask types, with various cartridges that you can fit (for various purposes) and parts that you can replace. There are half-face (cover mouth and nose) and full face (also cover your eyes). I really, really like the full face type for doing anything dusty, but, alas, I have a hard time finding one to fit, so I usually end up using my half-face one plus safety goggles, and enduring the "gap." I would prefer to use the full face one though. OTOH, if you are not doing a lot of things like sanding fiberglass overhead, the half face one is good, and easier to store, etc.

There are a few good brands. I look for ones wherein the face part comes in sizes (i.e. S, M, L), and I have spent a bit more for the better "rubber" in the mask part. A good basic respirator is the 3M 6000 series - my full face respirator is a 3M 6000 series. For my latest half-face respirator, I went up to the 3M 7500 which has a slightly better "rubber" face mask part. I used to have a different brand (Survivair, IIRC), and it was fine, but I ended up in more places that carried the 3M cartridges and parts, so I switched to using 3M respirators. You can see them here (or many other places):

http://www.envirosafetyproducts.com/3m-respirators.html

3M has filter selection guides that show you what to use for various hazards. I typically carry three different filters with me: The 6001 organic vapor cartridges (just plug into the respirator body) with the P-95 (dust) pre-filter (held on by a pair of retainers that you can re-use) And the 3M 2097 (plugs in and is used as a single filter) for tasks where they will be adequate (they are lighter weight and cooler to wear).

Once I had respirator(s) lying around (do be sure to store them such that they cannot "suck up" vapors in storage), I found myself using them for so many things. No more painting the living room while breathing fumes, for example, even though that's not supposed to be "dangerous." I'm sure it can't be healthy and it's more pleasant to not smell it (you can't smell the fumes if the respirator is working properly). Likewise for dusty work. I don't just use it for "special occasions."

******

So, upshot, I have a 3M 7500 half face respirator and a 3M 6000 series full face respirator. I carry the 6001 organic vapor cartridges with the P-95 pre-filters (and retainers), plus the 3M 2097 stand-alone filters. I also have a set of disposable clear face mask protectors for the full face mask (prevents scratches on clear view-through part of mask).
 
:thup On Sunbeam's treatise on protective masks. Most of us born pre 1950 probably inhaled more than a lifetime's worth of VOC from oil based paint before age 20, but we might as well protect whatever lung function is left. :) As a longtime synthetic chemist, probably I have taken in five lifetimes worth.

The 3M 6001 / 7500 combination is likely a best buy combo for almost everybody. It is what I have been using the last ten years. Want to emphasize Sunbeam's caveat: seal the 6001 cartridges up inside a ziplop bag, minimum, between uses. Otherwise, they will slowly absorb organic vapors (aka VOC) and become useless.

A pro woodworker gave me a tip on checking to see if your cartridges are still working: spritz a shot of one of the citric scented cleaners ahead of your masked face, NOT into your face, and step into the cloud, inhaling normally. If you smell the citric scent, the cartridges are no good. Some VOC's do not have an odor pungent enough to smell, making it important to protect yourself even if you can not smell the fumes coming off any high VOC paint or solvent.

Probably many of us live in places where it is difficult to get hold of high VOC paint and are stuck with mainly water based coatings. I have been using System Three's two part WR-LPU for topsides and on dry sailed hulls for years, and have had good results.
 
Thanks Sunbeam and AstoriaDave. I've been using the disposable dust/fiberglass particulate masks. The problem with them is the seal is not good and when the going gets tough, your protective eye wear fogs up. I think I'll go with a 3M 6001 / 7500 combination half mask.
I also like the idea of insultating my v-berth area with the mascot type. Does anyone know if it can be rolled on as opposed to the recommended spray on technique. Sounds like it may be an expensive complicated project for the average DIY'r.
 
Grazer":33n9ttwk said:
I think I'll go with a 3M 6001 / 7500 combination half mask.
Click to expand...

I think that'll be a good combination. You'll probably want to get the dust pre-filters (and their snap-on retainers) as well - they fit over the 6001 vapor cartridges. The round pink ones (part number mentioned above) are nice if you are sanding but have no vapors, as they are lighter and easier to breathe through (you can't use the 6001 pre-filters alone, but only over the 6001 vapor cartridges; that's why I keep all three on hand). You probably noticed this above and are just not boring us with minutiae, but the mask part does come in sizes for best fit (some places may just "assume" that everyone is a large though).
 
UPDATE!

Thanks for the tip on respirators. I bought one of the 3m cartridge type respirators and sure enough, NO SMELL WHATSOEVER while I was gluing stuff to the walls. Count me among the converted, that thing is AWESOME.

However, I had no luck on getting foam to stick to the walls. I tried contact cement and DAP adhesive, but neither wanted to stick to the contours of the hull. It could have been a temperature / humidity problem I guess.

I'm ready to try 3m 77 or similar, but also concerned that if I ever want to remove the foam, I'll be stuck with a million flecks of foam and dried adhesive that will never ever come off the interior walls of the boat. Does anyone know if/how the dried adhesive and foam combo can be removed if necessary?
 
Willronco,

Which type of contact adhesive did you use? I have found the water based versions to be worthless on hard finished surfaces, even if they are aggressively cleaned and roughened with 80 grit sandpaper. In contrast, never had a failure with the solvent based contact adhesives when working with a hard surface and foam. Note: the foam surface also needs to be roughened.

As far as removal, it is scrape and pull, scrape and pull. Typically, I sharpen those cheap plastic scrapers and use them. Metal scrapers often scar the underlying surface. Not a fun job. Oh, yeah, working some acetone into the contact as you scrape helps, but leaves a residue which needs to be cleaned off, typically with lacquer thinner, followed by soap and water.
 
Besides condensation of warmer ambient air on a cooler surface,
moist vapor comes off your body so in a V berth, you want circulation
of air under your mattress pad lying on fiberglass. Closed cell materials
inhibit circulation promoting condensation. Open porous materials
assist circulation of air and help decrease condensation.
Check out HyperVent:

http://www.hyperventmarine.com/products.html

As for assisting circulation on other surfaces, why not a solar
vent or two?

Aye.
 
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