Uh Oh! II

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Sea Wolf":356fu7i5 said:
Interesting to see how Brunswick's stock has done in the past year, probably reflecting the recreational industry's downturn from limited discretionary income:

(Brunswick owns Sea Ray, Boston Whaler, Bayliner, Maxum, Mercury/Mercruiser, Mastercraft, Bertram, Albermarle, and many others.)

Brunswick Corp

Joe. :disgust

I was shorting both BC (Brunswick) and WGO (Winnebago) through stock short sales and put options last year an did quite well. Both will soon be ripe again for another short trade, possibly as early as next Friday when the negative GDP figures are released: a shocker is expected...

dave deem":356fu7i5 said:
Hello,
As a lurker with intention to buy in 09 here's my take on things. C-Dory's line of boats being light and fuel efficient are about as close as you can get to the car comparison of a Toyota Prius. Their resale value is unparalled in the industry. They hold up very well provided the previous owners did nothing real stupid to them. There are boats built in the 80's still roaming around running strong. They have a terrific owners group and most of the C-Dory owners actually use their boats as seen everywhere on this site. The dealers are supportive and willing to help most anyone as long as the don't get too obnoxious. So a Bayliner Brunswick thing comarison I hope is just whacky. As far as the economy goes if you want to get cash spent quick increase welfare checks. The money will be better spent then giving it to the failed banks as they probably won't have enough to buy jet aircraft. So I'm thinking instead of depleting any of my meager reserve retirement money I would be helping the country out by finiancing the boat and if the world does come to and end I can either let it be covered with volcanic ash or just default on the loan and move to Mexico or Ecuador if things get real bad. I just wondered if I ought to go with surge brakes or electric over hydraulic brakes on the trailer before the world comes to an end?
D.D.

Niche Market: you make a very good point about the C-Dory boats being economical to run and comparable to the Toyota Prius in that regard: however, it's not necessarily a beneficial comparison at present, as sales of the Prius are now down 45%, or 10% more than the average percentage drop for regular cars, probably due to cheaper gasoline...

http://www.hybridcarblog.com/2009/01/pr ... ember.html

It's also clearly not comparable to the Bayliner, which loses its resale value very quickly, due to the poor quality of construction. However, just like other better boat brands, I expect resale prices of used C-Dory boats to come down substantially, as vendors realize that they're no longer finding buyers at the higher asking prices: do you plan to buy a new or used boat?...

If I decide to buy a monohull, the Cape Cruiser/Venture 23 is currently at the top of my list, but the catamaran bug has bitten again, except that I can't find anything that meet my requirements, so I may end up building a one-off...

Also, C-Dory will find it easier than Brunswick to downsize to match reduced demand, but the fixed overheads, such as lease costs of manufacturing premises, boat shows, etc... will remain essentially the same...

Last time a check was given to stimulate spending, it was found that only 15% of that money actually got spent, so it won't happen again any time soon...
 
here's the deal, IF C-D folds and the economy totally goes in the tank, we all meet up in the Sound. We can live on our boats, get some eye patches and pirate flags and just run about pillaging the Sound...be like the damn Hells Angles afloat

who's in?
 
B~C":qad57in5 said:
here's the deal, IF C-D folds and the economy totally goes in the tank, we all meet up in the Sound. We can live on our boats, get some eye patches and pirate flags and just run about pillaging the Sound...be like the damn Hells Angles afloat

who's in?

If this picture of doom and gloom continues we may not have a choice. People may start buying C-Dorys so they have a place to live free waterfront property and no grass to mow!
 
Dotnmarty,
Thanks I try to be funny and get the point across does not always work. Thanks for the vote of confidence.
Marvin4239
Good point about Mexico and the brakes
Bill and El
I'm not sure I'm really smart enough to hang out with you two for long, but if I ever get the chance it would really be my pleasure.I've read almost everything of your travels except the foreign stuff. The picture with your boat almost over the falls was that for real?? Thanks for being who you are. I'll need another life or three to even get to do a third of what you two have done. Thank You
Seagem,
I'm a patriot even though our country has made some mistakes being a Vietnam veteran I've seen some pretty bad mistakes. I live here pay taxes and try to the right thing. All in all I would want to live anywhere else even though I joke about it sometimes. I try to always put C-Dory in a positive light here on this forum and anywhere I talk about them. It's a boat that I can afford to operate and tow and overnight on an occasion. The new owner of C-Dory seems to want to do the right thing. They have a one year warranty on any items provided by the factory,i.e hydraulic steering etc. Five years on the hull. I trust these people and the product which is proudly built in The United States Of America. I don't think the dealers had them priced to far out of line at all. If Boston Whaler built a C-Dory knock off it would cost twice as much. Price up a 17' Montaulk now that's a joke.I've being checking these C-Dory folks out for a while I think they are the real deal. About the Prius thing they are selling better than Hummers was kind of what I was getting at. I'd really like to buy a 23' Venture or Cape Cruiser. I would buy a late model used one if it was priced right and had a motor I could live with. Not to be mean or seem nasty but here goes I would tone down your posts a little no sense acting like you know it all even if you do. You might be somehow alienating more folks than you realize. These people have a lot to offer. You'll catch more flies with honey than you will with vinegar. I really do wish you luck in your search for a boat that really suits you and your needs.
Regards,
D.D
 
JamesTXSD":3ne4g86d said:
Seagem,
......

I see on the following forum...

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multih ... 25620.html

... that you have made quite an impression. Seems that you have a plan to produce a "recession proof" 25 foot cruising cat.....

As soon as a relative newcomer asks about the 'ideal design for X' I immediately think of product sales aspirations. Discussing why a particular product is bad, in the one place dedicated to the owners of that product, with apparent new product sales and design goals, may not be the best way to introduce yourself.

I do not get the impression you have ever been aboard a Tomcat. Is that correct?

>>..."The Cape Cruiser/Venture 23 is a remarkable compromise in a pocket cruiser, BUT the Tomcat is not, as it's bridge deck is far too low and blunt towards the bows, which cause pounding"...<<<

The collapse of the air tunnel is what causes pounding on all cats, not just design alone. Vessel size, design, and sea conditions together will determine when a vessel will slam. For example, take a look at the cat shown on this site (cat pictured in upper left hand corner under Harbor Express): http://www.harborexpress.com/

I spoke to the Captain of this vessel recently. He said he can comfortably handle 6' chop but after that it will slam. Your reference above makes no sense without other qualifiers. I can comfortably cruise in 3' chop without pounding with normal cruising loads. Larger chop requires quartering off for a comfortable ride or I need to slow down and raise the bow.

I would like a higher tunnel clearance in the Tomcat, but all boat designs represent compromise. I could not find a better cat in the 25' range that offered the combined advantages of ride in chop, speed, efficiency, cruising space, etc., etc.

I too have strangers approach my Tomcat to compliment and ask questions. In fact, when rinsing/unloading at the dock it's sometimes problematic if I'm in a hurry!
 
This addresses the 2 previous posts without using quotes...

I find it amazing that if one is not an unconditional cheerleader for the entire C-Dory range of boats, one automatically lacks the requisite social graces to be accepted as a poster here and ulterior motives are immediately assigned via personal innuendos...

You will never see me making personal comments about or question other posters motives, as I try to focus on addressing the content of their posts...

A counter point is needed to all this cheerleading and I'm doing my best to provide just that: a dose of realism or a Devil's Advocate view point, take your pick...

The author of this thread has requested not to get side tracked and to try and focus on the economy, so, I'll keep this short: I have talked via PM to another member who owns a Tomcat and he's confirmed my impression that the bridge deck is too low and pounds in a seaway...

I agree that there are not many alternatives to low bridge deck cats at present on the market, except for the Aspen 26 built by the founder of Glacier Bay, which unfortunately is a diesel powered proa...

So, maybe there is a niche for such boat, but it would take a very courageous boat builder to start marketing such boat in today's economic conditions...
 
Interesting comparison with the Great Depression of 1929/1939, received by e-mail...

No Stimulus Without Stability
By Colin Twiggs
January 29, 2008

Global leaders are planning on capital expenditure programs to promote employment and tax cuts to stimulate consumption. Neither will be effective unless consumer confidence is restored. In 1929 President Hoover implemented similar measures, but with little effect. Confidence had been shaken by the rash of bank failures and soaring unemployment (exacerbated by a commitment to maintain high wages and attendant tariff protection). Consumers increased savings and paid off debt to protect themselves from uncertainty, while business adopted a similar defensive strategy: cutting costs, reducing debt and deferring new capital projects. Their priority was survival.

Herbert Hoover is undoubtedly one of the most capable and business-focused leaders to have graced the White House. A professional engineer with a reputation as an efficiency expert, by the age of 35 he had become financially independent and devoted his life to public service. Serving as Secretary for Commerce under presidents Harding and Coolidge, he earning a reputation for thorough research and a bias for action that made him the obvious successor to Coolidge. Despite this, his efforts to rescue the economy from recession failed dismally.

While Hoover is often blamed for the Great Depression, as Secretary for Commerce he had criticized the Federal Reserve's expansionary (cheap money) policy. His attempts to intervene were thwarted by the independent status of the Fed. Bankers serving on the board of the New York Fed (in those days more dominant than the Federal Reserve Board) resented this interference from an outsider. They also sought to preserve the margins enjoyed by borrowing at artificially low interest rates and lending on brokers loans secured by stocks — at call rates between 15 and 20 per cent.

As Secretary for Commerce, Hoover had prepared the economy for a future recession. He planned to smooth out any fall in consumption with increased capital spending programs by government, railroads and other large corporations over whom he had influence. The increase in capital spending was, however, outweighed by an overall decline in private sector investment and in residential construction. Tax revenues also fell as the economy declined, hampering further federal, state and municipal spending programs. Consumption continued to fall, leading to more business and bank failures, more job losses and declining tax revenues. The downward cycle became self-reinforcing. The economy was only rescued by World War II: increased war production and, later, conscription helping to solve the unemployment problem.

In the present crisis, as in the 1930s, neither business nor consumers are likely to be lured into new capital investment or increased consumption until stability is restored. Stimulus packages treat the symptoms of a recession, but they do not address the underlying cause. Rebuilding confidence requires more effort than increasing government spending and a few media releases. Only when concerns over bank solvency, inflationary monetary policy, ballooning federal debt, business failures and further job losses have been settled are we likely to witness a return to normal consumption and investment patterns. The task requires exceptional leadership as well as a deep understanding of the underlying issues. Otherwise we could end up in a worse position than Herbert Hoover.

Attempting to stimulate the economy while confidence is this low is like pushing on a piece of string

consumer_confidence1.gif


Note: internal consumption represents over 70% of GDP (Gross Domestic Product), so when people start saving instead of consuming, the GDP is bound to drop dramatically: next Friday new GDP figures will be published...
 
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